How sad

[egb_hibs]

Given the attention directed at fears that innocent Muslims could suffer from a backlash after each terrorist atrocity, there is a strange lack of equivalent coverage given to the shocking reality of the plight of europe's Jews, who actually are on the end of intimidation.and violence to the extent it raises existential issues.

There has been a brief burst of activity in reporting this week, as surveys reveal truly shocking levels of anti semetic views in Britain, albeit we are still a safe haven compared to France which people are leaving in droves. At the same time other - albeit in this case based on social media - surveys suggest the majority of British Jews feel there is no long term future for them in Europe,

I feel we are past the point where it is tenable to deny the mounting anti semetism is unconnected to the frothing obsessions of the progressive elite, which not only influence people generally but also lend legitimacy to the violent intimidation by Islamists. This state of affairs is becoming totally unacceptable and people of good conscience surely need to be saying enough is enough.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...anti-Semitism-Its-OK-to-blame-Jews-again.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mitism-survey-holocaust-france-jewish-britain - ironic this ones from the guardian, which during a slew of Charlie hebdo columns and thousands of related reader comments, dare not open to comment single column on the Jewish supermarket (by a Jewish columnist)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ave-France-for-Israel-Jewish-Agency-says.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...the-republic-will-be-judged-a-failure/384410/

 

[Dub]

Given the attention directed at fears that innocent Muslims could suffer from a backlash after each terrorist atrocity, there is a strange lack of equivalent coverage given to the shocking reality of the plight of europe's Jews, who actually are on the end of intimidation.and violence to the extent it raises existential issues.

There has been a brief burst of activity in reporting this week, as surveys reveal truly shocking levels of anti semetic views in Britain, albeit we are still a safe haven compared to France which people are leaving in droves. At the same time other - albeit in this case based on social media - surveys suggest the majority of British Jews feel there is no long term future for them in Europe,

I feel we are past the point where it is tenable to deny the mounting anti semetism is unconnected to the frothing obsessions of the progressive elite, which not only influence people generally but also lend legitimacy to the violent intimidation by Islamists. This state of affairs is becoming totally unacceptable and people of good conscience surely need to be saying enough is enough.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...anti-Semitism-Its-OK-to-blame-Jews-again.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mitism-survey-holocaust-france-jewish-britain - ironic this ones from the guardian, which during a slew of Charlie hebdo columns and thousands of related reader comments, dare not open to comment single column on the Jewish supermarket (by a Jewish columnist)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ave-France-for-Israel-Jewish-Agency-says.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...the-republic-will-be-judged-a-failure/384410/

Presumably if there are to be 15000 extra jews in Israel that isn't good news for the Palestinians. Is there a land grab in the offing.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ffs dub

 

[Jack]

I can't find a link and it was the wireless I heard it on ...

While this was being discussed during the week it was noted that the stats were considerably better in Scotland than the UK as a hole [sic]. I can't remember the exact details but in every category Scotlands results were between 25% - 50% better.

Obviously still not perfect but it got me thinking why this might be the case.

Are we more obsessed with our own curse, Catholic/Protestant bigotry, to spend time hating anyone but ourselves?

There's the obvious one that immigration isn't such a big issue in Scotland as it is in England. Immigrants importing their cultural prejudices exacerbating the situation?

I'm not aware of any area in Scotland that could be described as a Jewish Quarter, nor any football team associated with them like Spurs so there's no focal point.

They are here though, in decent numbers. I know, I've played cricket with them, as did Jim McArthur I think.

 

[emerald green]

Given the attention directed at fears that innocent Muslims could suffer from a backlash after each terrorist atrocity, there is a strange lack of equivalent coverage given to the shocking reality of the plight of europe's Jews, who actually are on the end of intimidation.and violence to the extent it raises existential issues.

There has been a brief burst of activity in reporting this week, as surveys reveal truly shocking levels of anti semetic views in Britain, albeit we are still a safe haven compared to France which people are leaving in droves. At the same time other - albeit in this case based on social media - surveys suggest the majority of British Jews feel there is no long term future for them in Europe,

I feel we are past the point where it is tenable to deny the mounting anti semetism is unconnected to the frothing obsessions of the progressive elite, which not only influence people generally but also lend legitimacy to the violent intimidation by Islamists. This state of affairs is becoming totally unacceptable and people of good conscience surely need to be saying enough is enough.

- - - Updated - - -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...anti-Semitism-Its-OK-to-blame-Jews-again.html

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mitism-survey-holocaust-france-jewish-britain - ironic this ones from the guardian, which during a slew of Charlie hebdo columns and thousands of related reader comments, dare not open to comment single column on the Jewish supermarket (by a Jewish columnist)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ave-France-for-Israel-Jewish-Agency-says.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...the-republic-will-be-judged-a-failure/384410/

Ffs egb_hibs

 

[vasco de gama]

I feel we are past the point where it is tenable to deny the mounting anti semetism is unconnected to the frothing obsessions of the progressive elite, which not only influence people generally but also lend legitimacy to the violent intimidation by Islamists. This state of affairs is becoming totally unacceptable and people of good conscience surely need to be saying enough is enough.

This is where you blew it. That's if the purpose of your thread really was for the people of good conscience to say enough is enough with regards anti-semitism.

 

[MixuDave]

Maybe Israels treatment of the Palestinian people is a factor in this? Or are people just ****s towards the Jewish community in your opinion Eegie?

 

[HenryLB]

Maybe Israels treatment of the Palestinian people is a factor in this? Or are people just kants towards the Jewish community in your opinion Eegie?

Antisemitism's been around a lot longer than Israel has.

A teacher at my old college was on facebook this morning saying that the attacks are all being done by Mossad in order to discredit muslims. Not that this has anything to do with what you're saying. I just thought it pretty mental.

 

[egb_hibs]

Ffs egb_hibs

How do you mean?

 

[vasco de gama]

Antisemitism's been around a lot longer than Israel has.

A teacher at my old college was on facebook this morning saying that the attacks are all being done by Mossad in order to discredit muslims. Not that this has anything to do with what you're saying. I just thought it pretty mental.

Good points. This highlights 2 of the main problems we all face namely 1. People basing their opinions on partial knowledge of history / factors, and, 2. The fact that history tells us there HAVE been all manner of state sponsored mentalist interventions and 'set-ups'. These give the tin foil brigade plenty fuel for stating that 9/11 was all a conspiracy to divert attention from the fact that the moon landings were a fake and that JFK wasn't really shot but instead was taken for major plastic surgery so that he could replace Paul McCartney in The Beatles when Mossad killed McCartney.

With regards Jacks point about Scotland coming out 'better' in surveys I would say from my life experience in Scotland Jews got slagged off a lot considering how few of them there are and I don't think it would take much to whip up major resentment towards them amongst your average Scot.

 

[egb_hibs]

This is where you blew it. That's if the purpose of your thread really was for the people of good conscience to say enough is enough with regards anti-semitism.

What do you mean vasco? In the more than ten years I've been posting here we have from time to time touched on the increasingly fevered climate that is building in this area. There is little doubt as to where it is being whipped up and yet there remains so much denial and rationalisation.

The first step to stopping the downward is spiral is to call out what is responsible

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Antisemitism's been around a lot longer than Israel has.

A teacher at my old college was on facebook this morning saying that the attacks are all being done by Mossad in order to discredit muslims. Not that this has anything to do with what you're saying. I just thought it pretty mental.

Exactly the kind of loon that is spreading this mindset.

 

[MixuDave]

Cheers for answering [MENTION=498]HenryLB[/MENTION] but I was hoping Eegie would give me his opinion tbh. [MENTION=101]egb_hibs[/MENTION]??

 

[BurbankHibee]

http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mitism-survey-holocaust-france-jewish-britain - ironic this ones from the guardian, which during a slew of Charlie hebdo columns and thousands of related reader comments, dare not open to comment single column on the Jewish supermarket (by a Jewish columnist)

There are > 1,300 reader comments on this article.

 

[egb_hibs]

Good points. This highlights 2 of the main problems we all face namely 1. People basing their opinions on partial knowledge of history / factors, and, 2. The fact that history tells us there HAVE been all manner of state sponsored mentalist interventions and 'set-ups'. These give the tin foil brigade plenty fuel for stating that 9/11 was all a conspiracy to divert attention from the fact that the moon landings were a fake and that JFK wasn't really shot but instead was taken for major plastic surgery so that he could replace Paul McCartney in The Beatles when Mossad killed McCartney.

agree up to a point, but there are conspiracies and there are conspiracies, JFK for example was actually shot, his killer and his killers killer then quickly exited this mortal coil, while many thought they heard another shooter. In other words, there is legitimate reason for a degree of speculation.

However events in France are caught on camera, proceed from a wholly explicable context, and in 101 ways require no convoluted explanation - in situations like this conspiracies tend to be led from prior agendas.

As I have long pointed out, the centre left have absorbed teh conspiracy tropes of what they would call the extreme right, and they have done so lock stock and barrel.

With regards Jacks point about Scotland coming out 'better' in surveys I would say from my life experience in Scotland Jews got slagged off a lot considering how few of them there are and I don't think it would take much to whip up major resentment towards them amongst your average Scot.

I'm sure you're right but it's also one of any number of pieces of evidence that puncture the wishful thinking that a diverse population breeds multi cultural tolerance whereas its the isolated hicks who are bigots, in many cases the evidence suggests that people don't like other groups when they are more, not less, exposed to them.

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There are > 1,300 reader comments on this article.

I meant this one - the only one on the attacks they didn't open, though I see they finally open it for a few hours days later.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/09/charlie-hebdo-cartoonists-paris-killers-fascist-death-cult

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Maybe Israels treatment of the Palestinian people is a factor in this? Or are people just kants towards the Jewish community in your opinion Eegie?

What's it got to do with Palestine?

Why would events in Palestine cause British people to believe, for example, Jews are more money grubbing than the next man?

Why would events in Palestine legitimately cause British people to be prejudiced against Jews? Especially why would it cause that more than prejudice against Muslims, for example, resulting from attacks actually in Britain, as well as being a worldwide phenomenon?

What I think? I think anti semitism is being whipped up in the corners where historically its always festered. And I think other people are buying into in for different reasons.

 

[MixuDave]

You really can't see a link between what a country does, and the view people form of them via there actions? Seriously?

 

[Chester Perry]

Bit of an assumption to put rise of anti semitism down solely on Muslims. After all we keep hearing about the rise of the Right across Europe and the Right tends to be White Christian/Catholic. And to be fair the Catholics have been at the old Anti Semitism longer than anyone else, even though they worship a Jewish God.

 

[Dub]

Ffs dub

What do you mean ffs

Let's wait and see what happens there.

You can bang on about anti-semitics all you like and although I agree with you that it's a disgrace, it will still impact upon the Palestinians because the Israelis will need more land to accommodate the extra people and, let's face it, they haven't been shy in the past.

 

[Jack]

agree up to a point, but there are conspiracies and there are conspiracies, JFK for example was actually shot, his killer and his killers killer then quickly exited this mortal coil, while many thought they heard another shooter. In other words, there is legitimate reason for a degree of speculation.

However events in France are caught on camera, proceed from a wholly explicable context, and in 101 ways require no convoluted explanation - in situations like this conspiracies tend to be led from prior agendas.

As I have long pointed out, the centre left have absorbed teh conspiracy tropes of what they would call the extreme right, and they have done so lock stock and barrel.

I'm sure you're right but it's also one of any number of pieces of evidence that puncture the wishful thinking that a diverse population breeds multi cultural tolerance whereas its the isolated hicks who are bigots, in many cases the evidence suggests that people don't like other groups when they are more, not less, exposed to them.

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I meant this one - the only one on the attacks they didn't open, though I see they finally open it for a few hours days later.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/09/charlie-hebdo-cartoonists-paris-killers-fascist-death-cult

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What's it got to do with Palestine?

Why would events in Palestine cause British people to believe, for example, Jews are more money grubbing than the next man?

Why would events in Palestine legitimately cause British people to be prejudiced against Jews? Especially why would it cause that more than prejudice against Muslims, for example, resulting from attacks actually in Britain, as well as being a worldwide phenomenon?

What I think? I think anti semitism is being whipped up in the corners where historically its always festered. And I think other people are buying into in for different reasons.

I can see a link.

I don't see it as a legitimate link but do the terrorists care? Any excuse, no matter how tenuous.

 

[egb_hibs]

I can see a link.

I don't see it as a legitimate link but do the terrorists care? Any excuse, no matter how tenuous.

What is the link? And whatever goes on in the minds of terrorists why should this be a rationale for regular British people?

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What do you mean ffs

Let's wait and see what happens there.

You can bang on about anti-semitics all you like and although I agree with you that it's a disgrace, it will still impact upon the Palestinians because the Israelis will need more land to accommodate the extra people and, let's face it, they haven't been shy in the past.

What I mean dub, is that we have an appalling situation going on and your first reaction is to turn it on its head to posit the Jews as bad guys.

It smacks of the very phenomenon that's going on here. I know that won't be your intention but to me it's suggestive or just how distorted things have become due to the relentless propaganda we're all on the end of.

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You really can't see a link between what a country does, and the view people form of them via there actions? Seriously?

What's the link Mixu; I'm completely serious. Why do events in Palestine explain anti semitism on the part of Britons?

 

[egb_hibs]

Bit of an assumption to put rise of anti semitism down solely on Muslims. After all we keep hearing about the rise of the Right across Europe and the Right tends to be White Christian/Catholic. And to be fair the Catholics have been at the old Anti Semitism longer than anyone else, even though they worship a Jewish God.

Whose putting it solely down to Muslims? The rise of the right is less to do with it than the derangement of the left.

Catholicism sure does have a grim history in this area and some heiders remain, but at least institutionally its confronted its own history. The progressives haven't - as with many other things - and are thus repeating the patterns of their past.

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I meant to ask this before this thread appeared.

I never really paid attention to the aftermath of what happened in Paris. Have they found that the terrorist who held the folk in the Jewish grocers hostage actually targeted the grocers because it was Jewish? I just thought he'd picked the first place he came across. Does anyone know?

that would be a remarkable coincidence, especially given he killed a police woman shortly before in the vicinity of a Jewish school - she is believed to have got In the way of his plans, there have of course been other fatal,shootings in Jewish sites in the recent past.

 

[FTJT]

actually read about this survey in a Haaretz op-ed, where they pretty much called it out as a load of shit - a lot of loaded questions in the views part, and the jewish community bit reads like those day today-esque daily express web polls - "do you agree that enough is enough? Yes 86%, No, I hate Britain 14% etc".

Might try and dig out the link.

Also, in terms of 'potential' backlash against Muslims?

Firebombs and pigs heads thrown into mosques as anti-Muslim attacks increase after Paris shootings - Europe - World - The Independent

 

[egb_hibs]

actually read about this survey in a Haaretz op-ed, where they pretty much called it out as a load of $#@! - a lot of loaded questions in the views part, and the jewish community bit reads like those day today-esque daily express web polls - "do you agree that enough is enough? Yes 86%, No, I hate Britain 14% etc".

Might try and dig out the link.

Also, in terms of 'potential' backlash against Muslims?

Firebombs and pigs heads thrown into mosques as anti-Muslim attacks increase after Paris shootings - Europe - World - The Independent

Yes do please dig it out. Which of the different surveys I alluded to were they commenting on?

I knew someone would come along to quibble with the methodology to keep from having to address the reality of what's going on. And then you make it a perfect two-step by bringing in the whataboutery, without deigning to comment on the Jewish position at all.

We're 20 odd posts In and not a single unequivocal condemnation of the situation - unthinkable with any other minority, how deeply odd it all is.

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So you don't know for definite then, just an assumption. By the way, he didn't kill the policewoman "shortly before", it was either 1 or 2 days before the siege in the grocer.

My goodness, why the contortions to avoid the obvious? Anyhow if you could have honestly persuaded yourself it was coincidence, it's a pity he told told French tv it was Jews he was targeting.

And 1 or 2 days is not shortly before, in what way?

 

[Lexo]

Anti Semitism is like all forms of bigotry, disgusting. How the Israeli government behave is not the fault of all Israeli,s or Jews. In the same way that we are not to blame for our governments actions. Anti Semitism is a problem in Europe, the same with anti muslim, anti immigrants etc. Racism and bigotry is a problem isn't it?

 

[egb_hibs]

Anti Semitism is like all forms of bigotry, disgusting. How the Israeli government behave is not the fault of all Israeli,s or Jews. In the same way that we are not to blame for our governments actions. Anti Semitism is a problem in Europe, the same with anti muslim, anti immigrants etc. Racism and bigotry is a problem isn't it?

Agree; the double standards applied to Israel is shady enough in itself but scarcely explains this stuff

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Who's avoiding the obvious? I asked a question, which you didn't answer, you gave your opinion. Now you're telling me that the guy told French TV he was targeting Jews. Could you have not just said that in your first reply back to me? You don't half like making things difficult.And my interpretation of shortly before is 5 mins, 30 mins, couple of hours - not 1-2 days.HTH

Ok fair enough, i find it remarkable you'd have thought coincidence likely, but could have replied more helpful, on the shortly before point, I had assumed everyone was au fait with the timeline given the extensive coverage

 

[1 Mcnamara]

There is a common theme running through this thread.
It's called religion But the word is we would be worst of without it. I hae my doots.

 

[MixuDave]

[MENTION=101]egb_hibs[/MENTION] for an intelligent guy, you sure as hell act stupid as f**k sometimes. Am out, no reasonable debate to be had as it doesn't fit your agenda so its off the table. Night x

 

[egb_hibs]

There is a common theme running through this thread.
It's called religion But the word is we would be worst of without it. I hae my doots.

Not really. The yougov data shows those of no religion are just the same, while the left who are in the vanguard of all this are not renowned for their religiosity.

What is a common theme is spreaders of ignorance and bigotry, eh T?


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[MENTION=101]egb_hibs[/MENTION] for an intelligent guy, you sure as hell act stupid as f**k sometimes. Am out, no reasonable debate to be had as it doesn't fit your agenda so its off the table. Night x

Not me being stupid as fuck. Here's some things that are stupid as fuck;

- the idea that Palestine explains or even justifies British people being anti Semitic
- buying into the rhetoric of Islamists (who, by the way are opposed to Palestinian statehood) that Bangladeshis, North Africans or whatever, are somehow legitimised by events in Palestine. That's a recipe for disaster, setting tribes against each other. Follow this logic and attacks on Christians, secularists etc elsewhere, justify other secularists or Christians weighing in against the other tribe here. A short road to hell that approach.
- that we're well into a thread and still short of condemnations of this while you've now shot off without explaining your view

 

[Chester Perry]

Whose putting it solely down to Muslims? The rise of the right is less to do with it than the derangement of the left.

Catholicism sure does have a grim history in this area and some heiders remain, but at least institutionally its confronted its own history. The progressives haven't - as with many other things - and are thus repeating the patterns of their past.

Most people on this thread have put it down to Muslims. In times of economic crisis, mass unemployment, rise in poverty etc people have always gone to political extremes and the 1st people in the firing line throughout history are usually the Jews. Theres your rise of the Right, its not all down to your obsession, the Left.

 

[egb_hibs]

Most people on this thread have put it down to Muslims. In times of economic crisis, mass unemployment, rise in poverty etc people have always gone to political extremes and the 1st people in the firing line throughout history are usually the Jews. Theres your rise of the Right, its not all down to your obsession, the Left.

Across Europe yes, not so convinced in the UK - it doesn't seem to be who the Jews are worried about anyway.
But certainly your jobbiks or golden dawn or FN are part of it, though some of the other rising rightists - eg geert wilders - are a different story.

It does seem a unifying theme for malcontents of all stripes.

 

[gun ainm]

I knew someone would come along to quibble with the methodology to keep from having to address the reality of what's going on. And then you make it a perfect two-step by bringing in the whataboutery, without deigning to comment on the Jewish position at all.

you're using the survey to define reality but aren't prepared to look at the methodology? that's the first thing anyone should do - I haven't looked at the questions or the answers but its dangerous to take such surveys at face value.

They may off course accurately depict reality - in which case its deeply concerning

 

[Chester Perry]

Across Europe yes, not so convinced in the UK - it doesn't seem to be who the Jews are worried about anyway.
But certainly your jobbiks or golden dawn or FN are part of it, though some of the other rising rightists - eg geert wilders - are a different story.

It does seem a unifying theme for malcontents of all stripes.

Possibly as the UK was lucky to never have a large Facist movement or been occupied by Facists, being on an island does have its advantages. Ive always been baffled the tubes who sing the "Edinburgh Song", maybe they could explain their hatred of the Jews, I'm not 100% sure the singers of it are Muslim and the only Jew they probably know is David Baddiel.

 

[egb_hibs]

you're using the survey to define reality but aren't prepared to look at the methodology? that's the first thing anyone should do - I haven't looked at the questions or the answers but its dangerous to take such surveys at face value.

They may off course accurately depict reality - in which case its deeply concerning

My context was made in the context of umpteen threads like this where people keep looking for distractions from the underlying point. That is not directed at ftjt btw, just a general thing. I actually expected Gareth to be the one to play this card! As per my op there is no doubt the survey of Jewish opinion - from social media - is less robust than the you gov poll of British opinion.

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Possibly as the UK was lucky to never have a large Facist movement or been occupied by Facists, being on an island does have its advantages. Ive always been baffled the tubes who sing the "Edinburgh Song", maybe they could explain their hatred of the Jews, I'm not 100% sure the singers of it are Muslim and the only Jew they probably know is David Baddiel.

i do wonder at the origins of the Edinburgh song, it has had those words as far back as I go which is over 30 years. It's an arsehole song, but I'm not sure it reflects anything more than the singer being an arsehole. But wherever the words were coined there was likely more intent and calculation.

 

[Dub]

My context was made in the context of umpteen threads like this where people keep looking for distractions from the underlying point. That is not directed at ftjt btw, just a general thing. I actually expected Gareth to be the one to play this card! As per my op there is no doubt the survey of Jewish opinion - from social media - is less robust than the you gov poll of British opinion.

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i do wonder at the origins of the Edinburgh song, it has had those words as far back as I go which is over 30 years. It's an arsehole song, but I'm not sure it reflects anything more than the singer being an arsehole. But wherever the words were coined there was likely more intent and calculation.

I must be living in a bubble because despite going to Easter Road for the last 40+ years I have no idea what anyone means when they mention The Edinburgh song. If it's truly disgusting don't post it here but can someone PM me the lyrics so that I can ascertain whether I know it or not.

 

[SKII]

I must be living in a bubble because despite going to Easter Road for the last 40+ years I have no idea what anyone means when they mention The Edinburgh song. If it's truly disgusting don't post it here but can someone PM me the lyrics so that I can ascertain whether I know it or not.

Sent you this. It was probably more prevalent in the 80s but it still gets the odd outing from prepubescent Chubby Brown wannabes...there are variations for most cities and towns.

 

[Dub]

Sent you this. It was probably more prevalent in the 80s but it still gets the odd outing from prepubescent Chubby Brown wannabes...there are variations for most cities and towns.

Thanks boss. I have read your PM and can honestly say that I haven't ever heard anyone singing that.

My bubble must be sound proofed against stuff like that. Either that or I'm deaf

 

[Doc Shrink]

Thanks boss. I have read your PM and can honestly say that I haven't ever heard anyone singing that.

My bubble must be sound proofed against stuff like that. Either that or I'm deaf

I must be a bit the same.
:115:

No saying what bit though...


I have heard it a few times - mainly away games in the last few years, but during the 80's 90's etc when I was going pretty much every week home and away I just don't recall it.

 

[Jack]

The validity of the survey was questioned on the radio show I mentioned earlier.

Apparently emails were sent out and folk responded through that, so to a degree it was self selecting.

There was no mention, I heard, of how those who were sent the email were selected.

Not the best in my opinion but there you go.

 

[FTJT]

My context was made in the context of umpteen threads like this where people keep looking for distractions from the underlying point. That is not directed at ftjt btw, just a general thing. I actually expected Gareth to be the one to play this card! As per my op there is no doubt the survey of Jewish opinion - from social media - is less robust than the you gov poll of British opinion.

Haaretz link

There are other statements there which are wrong or offensive, but agreeing with them isnt necessarily evidence of anti-Semitism. In their eagerness to prove a point, the CAA has created its own definition of anti-Semitism, which is more a reflection of what is impolite to say in public than what is actual bias against Jews. Another group with a different definition could conduct a similar survey and come up with radically different results.

Point being that if you have a bunch of questions where a significant proportion of people can reasonably go "not how I'd put it, but yeah" and then your definition of anti-semitism is "agrees with any one of these statements", you can tailor the facts to fit your argument.

The last finding in the survey is that 56 percent agree that the recent rise in anti-Semitism in Britain has some echoes of the 1930s. If the majority of British Jews and the authors of the CAA report actually believe that, then its hard to take anything they say about contemporary anti-Semitism in their home country seriously. If they honestly think that the situation in Britain today echoes the 1930s when Jews were still banned from a wide variety of clubs and associations, when a popular fascist party, supported by members of the nobility and popular newspapers, were marching in support of Hitler, when large parts of the British establishment were appeasing Nazi Germany and the government was resolutely opposed to allowing Jewish refugees of Nazism in to Britain, finally relenting in 1938 to allow 10,000 children to arrive but not their parents who were to die in the Holocaust (that shameful aspect of the Kindertransport that is seldom mentioned) and when the situation of Jews in other European countries at the time was so much worse, then not only are they woefully ignorant of recent Jewish history but have little concept of what real anti-Semitism is beyond the type they see online.

Jews are represented in Britain in numbers that are many times their proportion of the population in both Houses of Parliament, on the Sunday Times Rich List, in media, academia, professions and just about every walk of public life. To compare todays Britain, for all its faults, with the Jews situation in 1930s exhibits a disconnect from reality which borders on hysteria. Since the methodology of the second survey is so unclear, we can but hope that this isnt the majority view among British Jews, but even if it reflects the feelings of a significant minority, it proves that the real crisis is one of a lack of self-confidence among Jews. Anti-Semitism in Britain is a problem that must not be belittled and has to be treated with a serious and open-eyed attitude. This report is not a step in that direction.

In terms of whataboutery, you framed the question with something so misleading as to constitute a lie ('potential' backlash) so, yeah, of course that gets picked up on. People don't bother going through the routine of "yes, anti-Semitism is bad" in arguments with you because there's no value to it; you spend so much time building strawmen and ignoring nuance, context or any arguments you don't like that the best people hope for is trying to counter your more dangerous assertions about Muslims/gays/the left until they get bored and stop posting.

 

[egb_hibs]

FT its good you've moved beyond unleashing torrents of abuse every other post, but you still don't half talk some old rot.

First off ,your grandstanding on opinion polls - the op points out that the poll on jewish opinion was social media based unlike the poll on british opinion. This was intended to pre-empt argument shifters like you, but seemingly to no avail.

Next, you're at your inflated best, I suspect, straining to keep your inclination to purple salvos in check. What are you on about with your nonsense about framing questions as lies? Are you seriously disputing that people are worried about potential backlashes against muslims? Really, wtf are you on about?

Then you wrap up with more narrow minded cliche and continued avoiding of the point. As well as plain old talking pish. If I was inclined to your outlook on life I'd be throwing out accusations of lies at this point, along with other histrionics. But I don't think you're lying, I think that you actually believe your piss thin rhetorical tricks and pop psychology amount to something.

Here's a couple things to leave you with;

- it's not hard to say your opposed to anti semitism - just say it; given the righteous fervour prompted by discussion of any other kind of bigotry, not to mention 101 fabricated ones, it's interesting that so much nuance, equivocation, evasion and sudden existential fatigue is provoked by this topic

- since you are now spokesman for the people, I'd welcome you to expand on your dangerous assertions charge; any you think you've countered would be the icing on the cake.

You might find challenges to your own world view to be dangerous, in fact it's pretty clear you do; and the more obviously objectively true they are, the more urgent is your obvious alarm. But now you've claimed to be a spokesman for all, a little more substance will henceforth be required in support of your accusations.

 

[Gareth]

My context was made in the context of umpteen threads like this where people keep looking for distractions from the underlying point. That is not directed at ftjt btw, just a general thing. I actually expected Gareth to be the one to play this card! As per my op there is no doubt the survey of Jewish opinion - from social media - is less robust than the you gov poll of British opinion.

Seeing as you've dragged me into this, the 'research' in terms of methodology is pretty atrocious, both of the 'polls' i can see. First, to frame something as an increase in something implies, to me at least, that you knew what it was before. But they don't, partly due to the fact that the questions asked are so ridiculous that nobody would have asked them before. There's leading questions and leading questions. If I was to say 'Nigel Farage is a right wing bigot', do you strongly agree, agree etc you'd rightly say my question wasn't neutral so to not think the methods or questions being asked matter is crazy, although given the 'results' chime with your own views its not surprising you'd give them a clean bill of health.
Incidentally, having just had a quick look at the supposedly more robust 'research', seems the most anti-semitic responses were by UKIP and Tory voters, so your nonsense about the left seems not to be borne out, and your new pals in the team Farage appear to be jew haters, enjoy your time with them.