How did Hearts do it ? and what can Hibs do about it.

After all said n done Hearts haven't won anything. They might have Champions League qualifier but I reckon they will get papped out early doors. If they get beat in first game then theres no europe at all as far as I believe.
If they don't get through the Champions League qualifier then they drop down to the Europa League group stages.
Whatever happens they will be playing European group stage football till the end of this year.
Basically the same as the huns in the season just past.
 
After all said n done Hearts haven't won anything. They might have Champions League qualifier but I reckon they will get papped out early doors. If they get beat in first game then theres no europe at all as far as I believe.

I believe they've got
X2 champs qualifiers to play
Losing the first drops them into the Europa qualifiers. Where they'd have to play 2
Losing that would drop them into the conference play off spot.

Winning the first champs league qualifier would guarantee Europa league til December

Winning the first Europa qualifier would guarantee conference league til December.

Basically winning any 1 of their 2 legged ties would guarantee Europe of some sort.
 
If they don't get through the Champions League qualifier then they drop down to the Europa League group stages.
Whatever happens they will be playing European group stage football till the end of this year.
Basically the same as the huns in the season just past.
They will need to win a 2-legged European tie at some point to guarantee group stages, something they've not done for a long time. Basically they get 3 cracks at it: Champions League > Europa League > Conference League. Lose all 3 and they're oot.
 
As I read it, the Gunts need to win 3 rounds to make the Champions League proper.
Opponents in the first will be either Bodo/Glimt, Fenerbahçe or Olympiacos.
Gunts will be odds against v any of those, but a Gunts win isn't impossible.
As Kev says, lose and they're in Europa League qualifiers.
Lose first time in those and they're in the play-off round for the Conference League.
They're not guaranteed group/league stage games, unless I'm reading it wrong.
 
As I read it, the Gunts need to win 3 rounds to make the Champions League proper.
Opponents in the first will be either Bodo/Glimt, Fenerbahçe or Olympiacos.
Gunts will be odds against v any of those, but a Gunts win isn't impossible.
As Kev says, lose and they're in Europa League qualifiers.
Lose first time in those and they're in the play-off round for the Conference League.
They're not guaranteed group/league stage games, unless I'm reading it wrong.
Someone sent me the below flow diagram thing which shows the permutations. I have edited it with their expected pathway 😁
 

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Our city neighbours fell at the last hurdle yesterday....however.

Serious question for discussion;

How did a club, basically the same size as ours, go from being bottom six scufflers last season to topping the league since September, being unbeaten at home in the league for the entire season, and being three minutes away from being scottish champions ? How did they do it ?

It can't just be down to the manager. McInnes is a very good manager but he is no Sir Alex. It can't just be down to both Celtic and Rangers being poor at the same time...and of course one of them has actually ended up winning the league....and anyway why did no other team take up the mantle and challenge the duopoly in scottish football ?. It can't just be down to Tony Bloom. All he has done is invest a lot of money in the club, the analytics thing is a load of shite. Hearts best and most consistent players this season were all at the club before Bloom came in.

So what is it ?

They have had the sort of season Hibs can only dream about. 40 years ago they came within seven minutes of being champions when Celtic were much better than they are now. However none of us can remember Hibs ever being in such a situation. A couple of second place finishes in the early 70's was the best we have done in the league since the Famous Five days.

My theory is that the significant financial income Hearts have had over Hibs and every other club outwith the Old Firm in recent years, has finally borne fruit for them. They needed an experienced proven manager to organise things on the pitch with that steady reliable income backing him, and they got one. They will now be favourites for third every season for the foreseeable future, but IMO will struggle to get third next season due to European Group stage football till January...more substantial money coming in to them.

Hibs need significant investment or we are going to fall behind in the next few years and fifth will be the norm.

Would like to hear other views.

You’ve touched on it there - no Europe was a big factor just as it was for us the season before.

I think that’s the conundrum - none of the non old firm teams have a squad anywhere near deep enough to cope with Europe as well - I’d suggest we hedged our bets and would have strengthened if we had beat Legia when it really has to be the other way around. We’d have probably had a much better season without Europe.

So to maintain points and nearly qualify for group stages was actually significant progress.

To build a squad deep enough for Europe probably the only sustainable way is to get the academy functioning meaningfully. Nothing suggests that is going to happen.
 
Anyhoo.... F**k worrying about the Gunts' European adventure.
No way will Pars & Lennon avoid a tanning on Saturday, so Hibs will be in the Conference League. We come in at Qualifying Round #2. We are ranked 188th on UEFA's coefficient table. Almost all the Q1 and Q2 entrants are known. By my reckoning, a fair bit would have to go wrong with the few remaining places available and in Qualifying Round #1 for us to be unseeded in the Q2 draw.
 
A mixture of luck, consistency and two old firm sides in turmoil for most of the season. No one will get near the league again our lifetimes. Both of them will spend big in the summer and will more than likely be fighting it out for the top spot for years to come. Hertz fans are absolutely deluded if they think they're going to regularly be in the mix. For all the talks of Jamestown analytics the bulk of their success came from players already there or players McInnes knew could play at this level. They'll fall away big time next season having to deal with domestic and European football. They're not big enough to do it. The status quo will resume sadly.
 
Here’s an amazing snippet

Hearts in 85/86, 97/98 and 2005/6

None of those seasons did they compete in Europe
 
Hearts finished 5th in season 86 87 after heartsing it in 85 86. Things can change quickly in football as we saw with us going from bottom to third in a few months. If we can get a captain like sdg and a wee bit quality then no reason we can be aiming for 3rd. Celtic will no doubt spend big and pull away next season plus they had loads of injuries so i expect them to be well ahead. After that anybodys guess.
 
Luck was on their side in respect that their 2 wins in Glasgow came Vs Russell Martin and Wilfried Nancy. They also got Brendan Rodgers last game in charge.

However, in fairness they won 15 of their 19 home games. In comparison we won 8 out of 19 at home which is terrible and in need of significant improvement next season.
 
I think them having an involved owner who openly speaks about challenging the title.
A manager who decided to agree with that idea.
A team that knows how to get wins home and away and showed no fear of the bigots.
A team that knows how to go right to the end of games. They've won roughly their point difference to us in the final minutes of games.


I know some of that is wide considering they folded and fell at the final hurdle, but that's the difference between them and us.

We speak about top 6 being an achievement, European football through a loophole being an achievement, games against Hearts just being any other game. (Including a cup final ffs, from the captain, after the game, while up town partying. source me)

I said after last season that our form if carried on would see us challenge Celtic for the title. It's actually mental that ended up being entirely possible, but for those chunts instead!

Fair play, they dared go for it. Delighted they didn't get it, but it was damn close. *&*^
 
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Tony Bloom’s analytics software is apparently very impressive - not only at analaysing potential signing targets but also assessing how they play the game . I often see Liam Craig staring at a monitor during games and assume that we have our own software but I figure their system is better.

That is the difference. Powerfull software that has looked at huge amounts of historic data on players and their development, tactics of games and when and what changes to make.


I get the impression we have not even got to grips with Purple&Greens sock colour spreadsheet yet.
 
First and foremost the right manager. He's maybe not a Sir Alex but he knows the Scottish game better than anyone else that's managing. He's tactically very good. It isn't pretty but it's highly effective. He knows that you need your squad and team to have a Scottish core and identity is so important. And he's installed in that team and squad a mentality where they can overcome curve balls thrown at them.

He’s also a bottle merchant when the pressure is on, only trophy he’s ever lifted is a league cup on penalties against Inverness.

There's not many managers that could cope with the mentality of a significant shareholder coming out talking of splitting old firm and winning the league within 10 years. He can and did.

Well he didn’t. He was appointed post-Bloom, so knew what his task was from the off.

He's the obvious manager for the Huns it's unreal they can't see it.

He turned them down, doubt he’d handle the pressure there. He had a Keegan-esque meltdown on Wednesday despite still being top of the league with one to play.

Sorry but had the Gunts appointed David Gray last summer they'd have finished 5th.

Agreed. Not saying McInnes isn’t a decent manager or a good appointment, but he’s not an outstanding manager either IMO.
 
They will turn on him soon enough when the 1-0 wins become 1-1 draws and they are miles off the summit. Id be very surprised if he lasts next season tbh.
 
Excellent post /question Greenmachine.

1) Manager. No team will be successful without an excellent manager.
Unfortunately he fits Hearts perfectly. A good manager gets a tune from all players and makes them better
2)Good signings..
3) Confidence. Success breeds success
4) Luck - good teams create more luck and self belief. Also maximising such a poor old firm - something we couldn't do.
5) good spine.to the team.
6)Belief from fan base. Feel good factor.
7) Funding and structure.

What Hearts have done in the past year is staggering. Unfortunately they look like they are going to push on.
In my 50 plus years of supporting Hibs we have never come close to competing for the league.
Best thing for us is good manager and major investor. We live in hope.
 
We seen this movie before. Hearts are going to do this,hearts are going to do that. Invariably after a good season they dont back it up. They also have europe to deal with and nobody seems to emerge unscathed from that. Celtic use to be able to handle it but their squad isnt good enough just now. Plus an expectant support,much more pressure and a target on their back. I very much doubt they will have a season remotely as strong as the one just finished. They finished 5th after alber kidding it in 86. It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest for them to finish around there next season.
 
The farts are going to need players
( more so If they get into any group stage in Europe.)
The likes of Findlay, Devlin,McCart, McEntee, Halkett will flounder in the european arena.
And as YP says celtic will spend money as European football is a must for them.
The huns ,as ever will have to be seen to keep up with celtic( always fun to see them buy players they can't afford!)
Then we have Motherwell.
Who must be champions in waiting( according to quite a few bouncers!)
Lets not forget Falkirk.
And cash heavy Dave Cormack at the dung heap.
Lots of variables.
Farts will do well to follow up this seasons failures with another season of failure.
But i reckon they will manage that comfortably!
 
Another thing to bear in mind amid all the statistics flying around - in particular that the Gunts were top of the League for most of the season - is that for a long time Celtic had at least one game in hand if not two due to their European commitments. Perhaps if they'd played those games they would have toppled the perverts sooner.
 
What Hearts have done in the past year is staggering. Unfortunately they look like they are going to push on.
In my 50 plus years of supporting Hibs we have never come close to competing for the league.
Best thing for us is good manager and major investor. We live in hope.
50:years eh?

Glory hunter.

We were second in 73/74 and 74/75.
:54:
 
I think them having an involved owner who openly speaks about challenging the title.
A manager who decided to agree with that idea.
A team that knows how to get wins home and away and showed no fear of the bigots.
A team that knows how to go right to the end of games. They've won roughly their point difference to us in the final minutes of games.


I know some of that is wide considering they folded and fell at the final hurdle, but that's the difference between them and us.

We speak about top 6 being an achievement, European football through a loophole being an achievement, games against Hearts just being any other game. (Including a cup final ffs, from the captain, after the game, while up town partying. source me)

I said after last season that our form if carried on would see us challenge Celtic for the title. It's actually mental that ended up being entirely possible, but for those chunts instead!

Fair play, they dared go for it. Delighted they didn't get it, but it was damn close. *&*^

Ultimately there away record in the end killed them. Won 1 in 8 and that was against 9 men. It was a freak season that will never happen again. The way it ended was joyful. Up them.
 
Mcinnes is the difference..I said when he was at killie that we should have went for him but then hibs went on a 17 game run. I know the guys a prick but he's a good manager and gets the best of his players. I have no doubt hibs would have been right up there if he was our manager
 
Tony Bloom’s analytics software is apparently very impressive - not only at analaysing potential signing targets but also assessing how they play the game . I often see Liam Craig staring at a monitor during games and assume that we have our own software but I figure their system is better.
Maybe Liam Craig was playing solitaire
 
Mcinnes was another Jamestown Analytics signing apparantly.

Here is a link to a recent podcast that explains some stuff about Jamestown and Bloom. Thats the title of the podcast below, the comments is full of Hertz bams, Its 32 minutes long and does nothing but praise Jamestown, Bloom and Hertz so click on it at your own risk...
The Football Boardroom, Could Hearts Become European Footballs Biggest Success Story
I’d a thought Bodo/Glimt or Midtjylland would be the teams to copy no the watery farts copywrite the much missed @1875
 
First of all thanks for all the contributions in answer to the points I raised.
Many I agree with...in fact most I agree with.
I just felt it worth discussing as I don't think in my lifetime of supporting Hibs (since the early 70's), I have ever seen such a massive change in a clubs fortunes from one season to the next...and as I believe there is a reason for everything, I thought it worth exploring whether or not there has been one specific reason, or several. I like looking at the big picture.

Regarding what Hibs can do about it, well it would help first and foremost if we had some sort of serious ambition for success as a club, and the mentality required in order to achieve it.

Hearts see themselves as Scotland's third club, and very much Edinburgh's club.
Unfortunately almost all neutrals and the scottish sporting media agree with them.
When I was at our AGM a couple of months ago for the first time in several years, I was struck by just how limited the club's overall ambitions were.
The old "we are aiming to compete at the top end of the table and hopefully win a trophy" line was wheeled out yet again.
Someone asked if we wanted to win the league and no serious response was forthcoming.
This at a time when our city rivals were well clear at the top, and clearly in a serious title challenge with Celtic and Rangers.

Where do we see ourselves as a club...and what do we want to achieve ?
There is no reason why we couldn't have mounted a challenge similar to what Hearts have done.
History shows we have underachieved massively for a club of our size...but that's in the past now.
We need to think of the future and how we can significantly grow our club, and make it primed for real success.

We do need investment, more season ticket holders, but more especially a ruthless winning mentality brought into all areas of the club.

My concern is that we plod along as we are, and Hearts financially continue to race ahead of us and we become the Partick Thistle of Edinburgh.
If they continue to forge ahead we will see managerial changes every six months at Easter Road as massive pressure comes continuously as fans vent their anger at our failure to match or better them.

Let's see what Hibs response will be to this quite extraordinary season just past.
 
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I’d a thought Bodo/Glimt or Midtjylland would be the teams to copy no the watery farts copywrite the much missed @1875


Aye thats the computer system/management model we should probably be looking to get onboard. There was even rumours it could happen a few months ago with their owner.

Since those rumours I have seen no evidence that we are using any new system to change tacticts during games. Only the transfer window will tell if we are trialling it to bring players in.


But i dont know much, and im normally wrong at predicting things. Maybe the difference for Hearts this season is down to a change of bulbs and tanning lotion at the tanning salon Mcinnes uses?
 
I think the manager had a massive say for them. They don’t play particularly attractive football but have done the basics well, are physical, solid at the back, and have some dangerous forward players. Add to the mix the threat their from set pieces and you have a competitive team - similar to Arsenal this season (although shiter). They’ve also been able to mix it up going from 4-3-3 /4-4-2 to 3/5 at the back when needed.

I don’t think Jamestown has been as influential as made to believe. Most of their stand-outs this season played for them pre-Jamestown and understand the Scottish game. Kyziridis, Braga and Leonard the outliers.

Unfortunately for us we are a soft touch, lack physicality & height and often fail to do the basics right. Add to that our lack of plan B and I think it’s clear to see why it’s not worked. The manager is partially to blame, but I think the recruitment in the summer was quite poor (terrible options at right wing back, no wingers, no replacement for Myko or Triantis) and is ultimately what let us down. January looked more positive and we actually signed players to address the issues that were glaring in July rather than signing players for the sake of it.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our best performers have played in Scotland for at least a couple years (Hanley, Mulligan, O’Hora, McGrath, Boyle). I think we will find success with more Mulligan-esque signings. Calvin Miller, Stephen Walsh, Barney Stewart, Lewis Smith of Livi, Ben Stanway of Partick, to name a few, but we have probably missed the boat on a couple of them. If we have a strong core of these types of players who know the game, you don’t mind taking a few punts on players like Klidje etc, and it probably gives these types of signings a better chance of succeeding.

One thing we need to avoid is the Newell/Barlaser types. Slow, weak but technically good midfielders get ran over up here.
 
I think the manager had a massive say for them. They don’t play particularly attractive football but have done the basics well, are physical, solid at the back, and have some dangerous forward players. Add to the mix the threat their from set pieces and you have a competitive team - similar to Arsenal this season (although shiter). They’ve also been able to mix it up going from 4-3-3 /4-4-2 to 3/5 at the back when needed.

I don’t think Jamestown has been as influential as made to believe. Most of their stand-outs this season played for them pre-Jamestown and understand the Scottish game. Kyziridis, Braga and Leonard the outliers.

Unfortunately for us we are a soft touch, lack physicality & height and often fail to do the basics right. Add to that our lack of plan B and I think it’s clear to see why it’s not worked. The manager is partially to blame, but I think the recruitment in the summer was quite poor (terrible options at right wing back, no wingers, no replacement for Myko or Triantis) and is ultimately what let us down. January looked more positive and we actually signed players to address the issues that were glaring in July rather than signing players for the sake of it.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our best performers have played in Scotland for at least a couple years (Hanley, Mulligan, O’Hora, McGrath, Boyle). I think we will find success with more Mulligan-esque signings. Calvin Miller, Stephen Walsh, Barney Stewart, Lewis Smith of Livi, Ben Stanway of Partick, to name a few, but we have probably missed the boat on a couple of them. If we have a strong core of these types of players who know the game, you don’t mind taking a few punts on players like Klidje etc, and it probably gives these types of signings a better chance of succeeding.

One thing we need to avoid is the Newell/Barlaser types. Slow, weak but technically good midfielders get ran over up here.
"The manager is partially to blame....."
Hmmmm. His profound observation after the last game said it all for me: "Over the course of 38 games, I believe you end up where you end up." Worthy of Lee 'The Slaver' Johnson.
Can't imagine even McInnes coming out with that.
 
I think the manager had a massive say for them. They don’t play particularly attractive football but have done the basics well, are physical, solid at the back, and have some dangerous forward players. Add to the mix the threat their from set pieces and you have a competitive team - similar to Arsenal this season (although shiter). They’ve also been able to mix it up going from 4-3-3 /4-4-2 to 3/5 at the back when needed.

I don’t think Jamestown has been as influential as made to believe. Most of their stand-outs this season played for them pre-Jamestown and understand the Scottish game. Kyziridis, Braga and Leonard the outliers.

Unfortunately for us we are a soft touch, lack physicality & height and often fail to do the basics right. Add to that our lack of plan B and I think it’s clear to see why it’s not worked. The manager is partially to blame, but I think the recruitment in the summer was quite poor (terrible options at right wing back, no wingers, no replacement for Myko or Triantis) and is ultimately what let us down. January looked more positive and we actually signed players to address the issues that were glaring in July rather than signing players for the sake of it.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our best performers have played in Scotland for at least a couple years (Hanley, Mulligan, O’Hora, McGrath, Boyle). I think we will find success with more Mulligan-esque signings. Calvin Miller, Stephen Walsh, Barney Stewart, Lewis Smith of Livi, Ben Stanway of Partick, to name a few, but we have probably missed the boat on a couple of them. If we have a strong core of these types of players who know the game, you don’t mind taking a few punts on players like Klidje etc, and it probably gives these types of signings a better chance of succeeding.

One thing we need to avoid is the Newell/Barlaser types. Slow, weak but technically good midfielders get ran over up here.
Good post.
Pretty much agree with all of that.
 
As I said before, Herts success is partly down to the weakest Old Firm in years. However that disnie explain the yawning chasm between oor points total. I agree with the soft touch description but equally discipline which must be maintained, which led to the wheels failing off our season at the last hurdle. 🤔
 
When I was at our AGM a couple of months ago for the first time in several years, I was struck by just how limited the club's overall ambitions were.
The old "we are aiming to compete at the top end of the table and hopefully win a trophy" line was wheeled out yet again.
Someone asked if we wanted to win the league and no serious response was forthcoming.
This at a time when our city rivals were well clear at the top, and clearly in a serious title challenge with Celtic and Rangers.

Where do we see ourselves as a club...and what do we want to achieve ?
There is no reason why we couldn't have mounted a challenge similar to what Hearts have done.
Except Hearts didn't go into this season aiming for a title scrap; things just broke exactly their way. I reckon if you'd asked Tony Bloom a year ago if he'd be happy with fifth this season he'd have ummed and aahed but not said no.

I don't think any team outwith the cheeks can realistically plan a title charge ahead of time as things stand because of the gulf in finances. All any team can do is tool up for the season ahead as well as possible, and if a) they get it right and b) they get lucky with timing, good things might happen (see also Aberdeen running it fairly close in the hunless years). But both are needed, and it's incredibly hard to retain a good side in this league for long enough for another chance to come round.

Ten years ago Hibs won the cup, but lost the LC in stoppage time, and also couldn't get out of the second division. Remember all the Hibsed it patter? Did we have a shit team full of cowards who suddenly turned into Brazil 70 with ten minutes of the season left? Or did a good team of good players, operating at a fairly consistent level, have wildly inconsistent luck with results over the piece?