Give me a reason, if you can be arsed, to vote labour in 24

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egb_hibs

egb_hibs

Private Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
I’m not voting SNP anymore. I’m not going to vote Tory. I’m not going to vote Libdem.

I’m expecting to spoil my ballot but could be tempted to vote labour, if the Social Democratic Party are not a local option as they generally aren’t, to get rid of the tories.

Can any labour fan push me over the edge? You’re up against - I’ve believe economically they will be near identical and socially, even if only indirectly, they’ll only encourage the crazies and the racists, and then the other racists that oppose those racists. Still, I do want the tories booted.

Is there any reason for hope ?

Just in case the thread seems hopelessly narcissistic, it a) probably is but b) is intended to start a chat about where labour are at, which is not clear to me
 
If you are looking for inspiration don't look to me. You won't get any soaring rhetoric either. I've had it with empty platitudes and lofty, but unattainable, ambitions.

What I want is for things just to start to work. I want people in government who work together and aren't like rats in a sack. I want an end to magical thinking that unravels at the very glimpse of reality. And I want a government that is capable of fixing the problems that ordinary people are facing. By that I don't mean solving the problems - just making things better. It's not that I don't want them solved, it just I know that it's not a quick fix. So progress is fine.

So are my ambitions hobbled and limited? Yup - I don't want snake oil salesmen telling me it can all be fixed if you do this one thing.

So why Labour? It isn't a buggins turn thing. I think Starmer has put together a team that seem capable and focused. Is he charismatic? Not really. Is he boring? Possibly. Is he smart? I would say so. Is he dampening down expectations? Sure.

Time will tell, but to me they look ready. While time will tell, it reminds me of Blair's first government or Salmond's SNP when they came to power.

Are they going to address the problems that concern you? Well they aren't going to change the shape and structure of the world economy in the first 100 days. But then Liz Truss tried that and look what happened there.

I want a focus on the economy, health, housing, addressing the deep seated inequalities across the country and a rapprochement with the EU. I don't want dazzling oratory. I just want a government that does its job.
 
Smurf said:
He did stop a Tory majority.

Something Corbyn gave us.
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No individual is more responsible, including TB, for the mess we are in. That’s not to say it’s all on him, but no individual played a bigger part. So, among other things, he is absolutely implicated in the subsequent election of the tories, and again, and again.

As above, Moaty and I contributed more to the leadership of the country by being nowhere near it.
 
Tbf I do agree he wouldn’t have been as bad as Corbyn. GB was your classic book-smart nerd who didn’t understand the world, but had a good heart.

Corbers was a dim bulb who surrounded himself with authentic Stalinist baddies, and trailed after Hamas and Hezbollah rough trade like Morrissey at a BNP March. A disaster avoided; Britain’s Trump.
 
Tories have to be removed first and foremost so at a GE , voting Snp is detrimental to getting them out . So get them out using labour then vote SNP at the Scottish parliamentary elections to achieve the mandate required . Having SNP mp’s at westminster has done nowt for us . Am I wrong ?
 
my vote will be SNP or labour based on 2 things

1) the character of the individual
2) the local polling - tactical anti-tory

my only concern re above is whether my vote be taken as an endorsement of either party more widely and esp a drop in support for indy
 
I've noticed the word scunnered being used recently. And that sums me up.

I retire in 3 weeks. The last month has been dire due to a job getting flooded.

But I've had plenty time in the hoose.

I despair for my grandbairns. The main choice to bin the Tories is being led by a daftie who couldn't define what a woman was.

As I have 4 granddaughters labour and the snidey fucker Starmer can fuck off.

My ballot paper will be spoiled.

I honestly just could not give a toss anymore.
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
I've noticed the word scunnered being used recently. And that sums me up.

I retire in 3 weeks. The last month has been dire due to a job getting flooded.

But I've had plenty time in the hoose.

I despair for my grandbairns. The main choice to bin the Tories is being led by a daftie who couldn't define what a woman was.

As I have 4 granddaughters labour and the snidey fucker Starmer can fuck off.

My ballot paper will be spoiled.

I honestly just could not give a toss anymore.
Click to expand...
It’s a sadly compelling argument. We have neoliberals vs neoliberals. There isn’t even room for labour to outflank on tax and spend as the tories have done that like it’s going out of fashion. Meanwhile the spiral of moonhowling is likely to be emboldened by a labour government while the tories can’t or won’t or don’t really want to do anything about it.

It’s either a spoiled ballot or vote labour to get the tories out so they can have a good hard look at themselves, and then - in the event they do - the same in reverse next time. We need something approximating a CDP vs SDP alignment emulating Europe (at least as it used to be - that’s failing too, but…one thing at a time lol). Instead we are drifting towards approximating the US with two establishment liberal parties facing each other, one throwing rhetorical sops to the proles, one despising them.
 
I wouldn't trust Starmer over anything he says.
He has flip flopped since taking over.
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
I wouldn't trust Starmer over anything he says.
He has flip flopped since taking over.
Click to expand...
Sadly I don’t even consider that a factor. I mean you’d have to go back to Thatcher or Major era to find politicians who were honestish even if you disagreed with them.

I think installation of cameras in the commons was a disaster - turned up the spin on eveything, moved the real debate out of the chamber. Social media naturally makes it worse.
 
What actual policies are labour offering?

Because any it does have will not be in the interests of folk who actually work for a living.

Labour get in all we will hear is 'well the last Tory government' shite.
 
egb_hibs said:
It’s a sadly compelling argument. We have neoliberals vs neoliberals. There isn’t even room for labour to outflank on tax and spend as the tories have done that like it’s going out of fashion. Meanwhile the spiral of moonhowling is likely to be emboldened by a labour government while the tories can’t or won’t or don’t really want to do anything about it.

It’s either a spoiled ballot or vote labour to get the tories out so they can have a good hard look at themselves, and then - in the event they do - the same in reverse next time. We need something approximating a CDP vs SDP alignment emulating Europe (at least as it used to be - that’s failing too, but…one thing at a time lol). Instead we are drifting towards approximating the US with two establishment liberal parties facing each other, one throwing rhetorical sops to the proles, one despising them.
Click to expand...
🤷‍♂️
Understand Over My Head GIF by ABC Network
 
The only reason to vote Labour is to get rid of the tories. That's it. I'm afraid. I'm hoping starmers flip flopping and their lack of policies will change if/when they win but not holding my breath. Just slightly less fucked under labour. What a terrible indictment of politics today. Can't believe my kids are getting the shit govts they have had and will have.
I'm like others who are close to retiring. Had enough of all of them and feel for the less fortunate in society who get more screwed every day. Its just horrible to see it happening in real time.
 
Archie said:
If you are looking for inspiration don't look to me. You won't get any soaring rhetoric either. I've had it with empty platitudes and lofty, but unattainable, ambitions.

What I want is for things just to start to work. I want people in government who work together and aren't like rats in a sack. I want an end to magical thinking that unravels at the very glimpse of reality. And I want a government that is capable of fixing the problems that ordinary people are facing. By that I don't mean solving the problems - just making things better. It's not that I don't want them solved, it just I know that it's not a quick fix. So progress is fine.

So are my ambitions hobbled and limited? Yup - I don't want snake oil salesmen telling me it can all be fixed if you do this one thing.

So why Labour? It isn't a buggins turn thing. I think Starmer has put together a team that seem capable and focused. Is he charismatic? Not really. Is he boring? Possibly. Is he smart? I would say so. Is he dampening down expectations? Sure.

Time will tell, but to me they look ready. While time will tell, it reminds me of Blair's first government or Salmond's SNP when they came to power.

Are they going to address the problems that concern you? Well they aren't going to change the shape and structure of the world economy in the first 100 days. But then Liz Truss tried that and look what happened there.

I want a focus on the economy, health, housing, addressing the deep seated inequalities across the country and a rapprochement with the EU. I don't want dazzling oratory. I just want a government that does its job.
Click to expand...

Sounds great but i've seen that movie before.
I don't believe ANY of the current parties at Westminster give a shit about what goes on outside that particular bubble. I may be wrong but i have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

Right now? Spoilt ballot for me.
 
Cavalier said:
Sounds great but i've seen that movie before.
I don't believe ANY of the current parties at Westminster give a shit about what goes on outside that particular bubble. I may be wrong but i have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.

Right now? Spoilt ballot for me.
Click to expand...
Whats the difference between a spoilt ballot paper and not turning up , asking for a friend 🤣
 
No.

I am going to find a bookie that will give me the best odds for the Tories to win the next GE, because I strongly believe they will.
Labour cannot stand on their true beliefs anymore , if they do, the Tories will just tell everyone Johnny Foreigner will be arriving by the millions, and the poor souls everywhere North, east south and west of London will react by voting for the party who say what they want to hear. Talk , which we all know is cheap. Cheap but effective. So labour will be split, and in no man’s land, and I really don’t think many can suffer Starmer, or trust him, because he truly dosent believe in what he is saying.
What I do know, is Scotland won’t get the government it votes for.
It will however get the one it deserves.
 
tayside hibee said:
No.

I am going to find a bookie that will give me the best odds for the Tories to win the next GE, because I strongly believe they will.
Labour cannot stand on their true beliefs anymore , if they do, the Tories will just tell everyone Johnny Foreigner will be arriving by the millions, and the poor souls everywhere North, east south and west of London will react by voting for the party who say what they want to hear. Talk , which we all know is cheap. Cheap but effective. So labour will be split, and in no man’s land, and I really don’t think many can suffer Starmer, or trust him, because he truly dosent believe in what he is saying.
What I do know, is Scotland won’t get the government it votes for.
It will however get the one it deserves.
Click to expand...
I've already lumped on no overall control but now starting to think as you do.
 
tayside hibee said:
No.

I am going to find a bookie that will give me the best odds for the Tories to win the next GE, because I strongly believe they will.
Labour cannot stand on their true beliefs anymore , if they do, the Tories will just tell everyone Johnny Foreigner will be arriving by the millions, and the poor souls everywhere North, east south and west of London will react by voting for the party who say what they want to hear. Talk , which we all know is cheap. Cheap but effective. So labour will be split, and in no man’s land, and I really don’t think many can suffer Starmer, or trust him, because he truly dosent believe in what he is saying.
What I do know, is Scotland won’t get the government it votes for.
It will however get the one it deserves.
Click to expand...
Bit late now but the Burnham guy should b their leader
 
tayside hibee said:
No.

I am going to find a bookie that will give me the best odds for the Tories to win the next GE, because I strongly believe they will.
Labour cannot stand on their true beliefs anymore , if they do, the Tories will just tell everyone Johnny Foreigner will be arriving by the millions, and the poor souls everywhere North, east south and west of London will react by voting for the party who say what they want to hear. Talk , which we all know is cheap. Cheap but effective. So labour will be split, and in no man’s land, and I really don’t think many can suffer Starmer, or trust him, because he truly dosent believe in what he is saying.
What I do know, is Scotland won’t get the government it votes for.
It will however get the one it deserves.
Click to expand...
Immigrants are arriving by the millions, just hardly any in Scotland. It really is an issue in England; for housing, services, social cohesion.

However, the problem for the tories is this is their doing. It’s way, way higher than under Labour and before Brexit.
 
egb_hibs said:
Immigrants are arriving by the millions, just hardly any in Scotland. It really is an issue in England; for housing, services, social cohesion.

However, the problem for the tories is this is their doing. It’s way, way higher than under Labour and before Brexit.
Click to expand...
I’m well aware, and frustrated that if England sneezes, Scotland catches it cold. That was my point about Scotland will get the government England votes for.

The English don’t appear to be very good at understanding true facts and figures. They are however good at believing what they want to hear.
 
egb_hibs said:
Immigrants are arriving by the millions, just hardly any in Scotland. It really is an issue in England; for housing, services, social cohesion.

However, the problem for the tories is this is their doing. It’s way, way higher than under Labour and before Brexit.
Click to expand...
So just to be clear, immigration is a good or a bad thing?
 
EH17 Jimmy said:
I've noticed the word scunnered being used recently. And that sums me up.

I retire in 3 weeks. The last month has been dire due to a job getting flooded.

But I've had plenty time in the hoose.

I despair for my grandbairns. The main choice to bin the Tories is being led by a daftie who couldn't define what a woman was.

As I have 4 granddaughters labour and the snidey fucker Starmer can fuck off.

My ballot paper will be spoiled.

I honestly just could not give a toss anymore.
Click to expand...
I get that frustration with Starmer. TBF he has since clarified and defined.... However, such is the extent of the broad church that all these political parties are they are all kind of damned if they do, damned if they don't. And on such a subject the abuse given either way really is horrendous. Look at the unbelievable abuse Joanna Cherry has had. And how little empathy or support her party leadership has given.

That said leadership is about leading....
 
Archie said:
So just to be clear, immigration is a good or a bad thing?
Click to expand...
It’s not intrinsically one or the other. Imo a level is good - indeed necessary. The levels we are running at now, not so much.

What is your own view ? It doesn’t strike me as a question that can be answered with a yes or no, unless you are a capitalist fat cat or an ideological fanatic.
 
tayside hibee said:
I’m well aware, and frustrated that if England sneezes, Scotland catches it cold. That was my point about Scotland will get the government England votes for.

The English don’t appear to be very good at understanding true facts and figures. They are however good at believing what they want to hear.
Click to expand...
What true facts and figures ? I’m not sure we Scots are any better in any case. Even when at the height of my yes fervour, I was uncomfortable with the fact that yes was leading with the idea there’d be more state largesse in an independent scotland. The numbers don’t support that.
 
egb_hibs said:
It’s almost as if we borrowed so much money to reduce it that we blew up the economy.
Click to expand...
I think even Tories out of office like George Osborne now admit the UK either way was exposed to the subprime banking crisis over the pond.
 
Smurf said:
I think even Tories out of office like George Osborne now admit the UK either way was exposed to the subprime banking crisis over the pond.
Click to expand...
Yes there was a global storm caused by the banking casino being run to support state spending in thar big government decade. But when the storm hit our house was built of straw thanks to Geebsy.

I think I recall reading that we were at the time the most indebted society recorded (may have been in peacetime). And that was at the end of a massive - and phoney - boom. He should have been paying down national debt per keynes not going mental adding to it, wrecking pensions and sending house prices into orbit along the way. It's only the fact we weren't in the euro that saved us from utter calamity.

15 years on we have still not recovered from it and nor will we any decade soon - it's not just tory ineptitude.

Look at Ireland by comparison ffs. And they were completely bust due to being in the euro.
 
egb_hibs said:
What true facts and figures ? I’m not sure we Scots are any better in any case. Even when at the height of my yes fervour, I was uncomfortable with the fact that yes was leading with the idea there’d be more state largesse in an independent scotland. The numbers don’t support that.
Click to expand...
what about the facts they ignored that they needed workers from abroad to fill vacancies in the NHS , social care and farming? They ignored them.
What about the figures that tell them we need a bigger workforce so our pensions get paid in the future? They ignored them.
What about the fact it was obvious to any one with a brain, that Boris was a complete and utter headcase, who cared not a jot for anyone below him in class. They ignored that and voted him in, with some to spare.
 
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