fox hunting and the snp

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Kenny

Kenny

Private Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2003
should the snp vote on fox hunting?

I can't see how repealing the ban will impact on scotland but maybe i'm wrong?

or is there a moral obligation on the basis of animal welfare?

Some labour folks calling on the snp to vote? .... but surely this would be the epitome of the west lothian question.
 
Kenny said:
should the snp vote on fox hunting?

I can't see how repealing the ban will impact on scotland but maybe i'm wrong?

or is there a moral obligation on the basis of animal welfare?

Some labour folks calling on the snp to vote? .... but surely this would be the epitome of the west lothian question.
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Setting a precedent on the EVEL issue in the SNP's favour if they are asked to vote :dunno:
 
Dub said:
Setting a precedent on the EVEL issue in the SNP's favour if they are asked to vote :dunno:
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i'd be amazed if they didn't abstain but they may leave it to their MPs to decide? some may feel strong enough to break ranks?
 
Kenny said:
i'd be amazed if they didn't abstain but they may leave it to their MPs to decide? some may feel strong enough to break ranks?
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I think if they are asked to vote they will and I would like to think they would vote against it. It would give the boy david something to whine about if he lost by about 50 votes.
 
Dub said:
I think if they are asked to vote they will and I would like to think they would vote against it. It would give the boy david something to whine about if he lost by about 50 votes.
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would be the end of the SNP taking the moral high ground about a govt we never voted for though.
 
Kenny said:
would be the end of the SNP taking the moral high ground about a govt we never voted for though.
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I'm not sure what you mean Kenny. In any event, CowieCabbage has helpfully pointed out that there might be fox hunting in the borders in which case it wont be an english only issue :thumbgrin
 
Dub said:
I'm not sure what you mean Kenny. In any event, CowieCabbage has helpfully pointed out that there might be fox hunting in the borders in which case it wont be an english only issue :thumbgrin
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It's banned separately in Scotland though. This vote is about England (and Wales?)
 
They should probably vote against it but there's a big part of me that wonders why parliament is spending time on this when there's way more important things they should be doing to improve our lives.
 
PILTONSTANY said:
They should probably vote against it but there's a big part of me that wonders why parliament is spending time on this when there's way more important things they should be doing to improve our lives.
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It was in the Conservative manifesto to have a free vote on the hunting act (I mentioned it on the thread on policies that would come on line potentially before the election). They were elected...so foxes look out.
 
Animals dont observe borders. If the SNP candidates can vote then they should. Fox hunting is sickening animal cruelty and should be challenged.
 
SKII said:
It was in the Conservative manifesto to have a free vote on the hunting act (I mentioned it on the thread on policies that would come on line potentially before the election). They were elected...so foxes look out.
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Yeah i know,it just seems such cruel thing to even consider and spend precious time debating...

Suppose the SNP were elected on a pledge they wouldn't interfere on English only matters,i'd like to hear what the 200 odd Labour MPs think about it too?
 
PILTONSTANY said:
Yeah i know,it just seems such cruel thing to even consider and spend precious time debating...

Suppose the SNP were elected on a pledge they wouldn't interfere on English only matters,i'd like to hear what the 200 odd Labour MPs think about it too?
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It was Labour who banned fox hunting so I'd reckon they'd not be for it (en masse). It is being seen as "class warfare" rather than animal welfare by some. It's playing to the Shires and their client group. I know what the BVA think...that should be good enough for anyone.
 
SKII said:
It was Labour who banned fox hunting so I'd reckon they'd not be for it (en masse). It is being seen as "class warfare" rather than animal welfare by some. It's playing to the Shires and their client group. I know what the BVA think...that should be good enough for anyone.
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Hopefully each party just lets them vote with their conscience
 
It just shows what power the upper classes in this country (uk) actually wield. I mean, what % of the population are actually involved in fox hunting? It must be tiny.

I would imagine a huge majority are against a bunch of hoorah Henry's rampaging through the countryside with the sole intention of ripping an animal too shreds for the sheer fun of it.
 
Is banned said:
Its a win/win for the Tories and lose/lose for the SNP imo all this.
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I disagree blood. It's a win for the SNP on the grounds that;

A] We wanted to vote NO but the nasty english wouldn't let us vote

or

B] We voted no but the nasty english over-ruled us.

Either way it's a victory for SNP.
 
I tried Coyote hunting here in the States and hated it. They are a genuine menace and we hunted on a farmers field. His live stock had been getting mauled and the Coyote's were rampant all over his field. Cows had been killed and maimed, hundreds of chickens had been killed and eaten, it was a mess. Anyway after I shot my first Coyote I felt sick. It just didn't sit right with me and still bothers me. Been asked to go deer hunting many times but couldn't do that.
 
tayside hibee said:
It just shows what power the upper classes in this country (uk) actually wield. I mean, what % of the population are actually involved in fox hunting? It must be tiny.

I would imagine a huge majority are against a bunch of hoorah Henry's rampaging through the countryside with the sole intention of ripping an animal too shreds for the sheer fun of it.
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It's at least as much about the urban upper class shafting the rural working class in pursuit of attacking their rivals. The anti hunt protestors got laid into by the politicised police force in a way the sons and daughters of the elite never do when they're out demonstrating over some pc complaint or another.

Whatever the rights or wrongs in respect of treatment of animals I suspect that is the least of reasons for this, as well as being poorly understood by urban sorts.
 
Is banned said:
Its a win/win for the Tories and lose/lose for the SNP imo all this.
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Lose, lose, lose situation for foxes if passed. Win, win, win for the oddly dressed wankers if passed. SNP MP's should vote en masse against repeal and help defeat this.

BIG G
 
egb_hibs said:
It's at least as much about the urban upper class shafting the rural working class in pursuit of attacking their rivals. The anti hunt protestors got laid into by the politicised police force in a way the sons and daughters of the elite never do when they're out demonstrating over some pc complaint or another.

Whatever the rights or wrongs in respect of treatment of animals I suspect that is the least of reasons for this, as well as being poorly understood by urban sorts.
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Apologies if I have picked you up wrong here...

But if you don't think this sport is about the pleasure of the pure destruction of an animal , then what do you think it is about??

It's not vermin control, it's a tradition at best.
 
SuperTortolano said:
I tried Coyote hunting here in the States and hated it. They are a genuine menace and we hunted on a farmers field. His live stock had been getting mauled and the Coyote's were rampant all over his field. Cows had been killed and maimed, hundreds of chickens had been killed and eaten, it was a mess. Anyway after I shot my first Coyote I felt sick. It just didn't sit right with me and still bothers me. Been asked to go deer hunting many times but couldn't do that.
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Isn't it a shame that poor Wile.E.Coyote will always be remembered for forever failing to catch the Road Runner rather than his extraordinary skill of being able to paint extremely life-like train tunnels :g:

I read that somewhere sometime ago...Just trying to cheer ya up mate, cos it's shan killing animals but sometimes you just have to :MG
 
tayside hibee said:
Apologies if I have picked you up wrong here...

But if you don't think this sport is about the pleasure of the pure destruction of an animal , then what do you think it is about??

It's not vermin control, it's a tradition at best.
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absolutely I think they are motivated by enjoyment of the hunt, perhaps more than the 'pure destruction of an animal'.

But from what I have read in recent years - starting from a position of total ignorance and accompanying certainty - it's by no means clear that alternative methods of vermin control are more humane. Then there's the whole impact on the rural working class for whom hunts and related things provide a surprising amount of employment.

Let's be honest, if cruelty to animals was the only concern, we'd not get to hunts until we sorted out factory farming and a 101 other things. Which is not even to discuss the peculiarly british trait of getting more easily upset about the plight of animals than of humans.

I don't have a clear view on what should happen now, as the real world complexities are far greater than I iniitally understood, although my emotional response remains agaimst - but there is far far far too much based on emotion these days. What I am sure of is that the poltiical attention this has got is totally disproportionate and smacked of a laboir government more concerned with poltical correctness and attacking its rivals than it was Concerned about working people - and that suspicion over the character of the party is still there.
 
My initial response is against fox hunting. dress it up however you like but its unnesessary and somewhat grotesque.

Thinking about it a bit longer and its even worse. There's no real defence.

I reckon the SNP are flexing muscle whilst digging an even deeper pit for Labor. Not sure whether they'll actually vote at all but makes sense to show how much power they actually have early on.
 
hibadelic said:
My initial response is against fox hunting. dress it up however you like but its unnesessary and somewhat grotesque.

Thinking about it a bit longer and its even worse. There's no real defence.

I reckon the SNP are flexing muscle whilst digging an even deeper pit for Labor. Not sure whether they'll actually vote at all but makes sense to show how much power they actually have early on.
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if it were no less humane than alternative means of vermin control and provided lots of employment to people where alternatives were thin on the ground, would that not be a defence? I'm not saying it's the case, as I dont know if it is - but if it was? Something needs to be gratuitously bad to justify the clanking fist of the authoritarian state coming down IMHO.
 
egb_hibs said:
if it were no less humane than alternative means of vermin control and provided lots of employment to people where alternatives were thin on the ground, would that not be a defence? I'm not saying it's the case, as I dont know if it is - but if it was? Something needs to be gratuitously bad to justify the clanking fist of the authoritarian state coming down IMHO.
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I'm almost certain there are more humane (not to mention efficient) methods of killing foxes than chasing them with hounds and horses until they die of exhaustion or are ripped to pieces by the dugs.

The clanking fist of the authoritarian state is happy to clank on dog fighting, cock fighting etc., I don't think an exception should be made just because the people who do fox hunting are more wealthy.

I've gone off topic a little though as the OP was asking whether the SNP should vote on the issue. I'd say they probably shouldn't but that it'll do them no harm to keep the other parties guessing.
 
are fox hunts subject to VAT? do people pay to go on a hunt? if so then the SNP have grounds to vote - all thought the smallest grounds possible...

more VAT receipts means more budget to spend means more money into the barnett?

personally think all scottish 59 MPs should abstain (snp, lab, lib, con)
 
I think the Tories promised a free vote for their MPs on this didn't they? The SNP should follow suit, allow their MP's to vote however they feel about it personally.

I'd be disgusted if any of them voted for repealing the ban.
 
hibadelic said:
I'm almost certain there are more humane (not to mention efficient) methods of killing foxes than chasing them with hounds and horses until they die of exhaustion or are ripped to pieces by the dugs.
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so was I until I read about the subject.

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southfieldhibby said:
I think the Tories promised a free vote for their MPs on this didn't they? The SNP should follow suit, allow their MP's to vote however they feel about it personally.

I'd be disgusted if any of them voted for repealing the ban.
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If this applies only to England and wales an snp vote would completely vindicate the English electorate going for the Tories,they have zero business voting on this if it doesn't affect scotland.
 
egb_hibs said:
If this applies only to England and wales an snp vote would completely vindicate the English electorate going for the Tories,they have zero business voting on this if it doesn't affect scotland.
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Maybe, maybe not. Are there hunts on the south side of the border? Do foxes cross from Scotland to England? Is there a financial payment for hunting collected by govt?

As for vindication, I'm not sure they seek or require any of that, and I'm not entirely fussed by that either. Fox hunting is disgusting, if The SNP could vote on it in Albania or Canada or Uganda I'd expect them to, and i'd expect them to vote against it.

Got a fox problem Mr Farmer?, shoot the fox.Quickly and painlessly.
 
southfieldhibby said:
Maybe, maybe not. Are there hunts on the south side of the border? Do foxes cross from Scotland to England? Is there a financial payment for hunting collected by govt?

As for vindication, I'm not sure they seek or require any of that, and I'm not entirely fussed by that either. Fox hunting is disgusting, if The SNP could vote on it in Albania or Canada or Uganda I'd expect them to, and i'd expect them to vote against it.
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all that you need there is for hunts not to be able to cross the border where scottish laws apply.
Got a fox problem Mr Farmer?, shoot the fox.Quickly and painlessly.
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which allegedly frequently results in wounded animals enduring a lingering death, and made a greater danger to livestock as they are unable to prey on harder targets.
 
egb_hibs said:
all that you need there is for hunts not to be able to cross the border where scottish laws apply.
which allegedly frequently results in wounded animals enduring a lingering death, and made a greater danger to livestock as they are unable to prey on harder targets.
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That sounds like pro-hunt lobby bullshit to me. You really believe that foxes make a conscious decision to go for harder targets rather than kill livestock? You've made a good point that I've made a lot of presumptions without doing any research but you'll need to do better than some heresay stories about foxes who avoid easy kills.
 
egb_hibs said:
all that you need there is for hunts not to be able to cross the border where scottish laws apply.
which allegedly frequently results in wounded animals enduring a lingering death, and made a greater danger to livestock as they are unable to prey on harder targets.
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'allegedly'

Who's allegedly, the society of horse backed hunting?
 
psychocandy said:
From memory fox hunting employed 5-10,000 people at the time of the ban.

Are the advocates of the ban above suggesting that the lives of rural vermin are worth more than the livelihoods of working people in areas where travel is often difficult, training limited and traditions strong?
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I'm not sure you can trade off in such a simplistic way. Where would that end? Basically you can justify anything morally provided you create enough jobs? Should dog fighting be legal provided they can prove its good for the economy?
 
psychocandy said:
From memory fox hunting employed 5-10,000 people at the time of the ban.

Are the advocates of the ban above suggesting that the lives of rural vermin are worth more than the livelihoods of working people in areas where travel is often difficult, training limited and traditions strong?
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I think that's a wild exaggeration. 1000 maybe directly employed by fox hunting with others benefiting second hand.
 
psychocandy said:
From memory fox hunting employed 5-10,000 people at the time of the ban.

Are the advocates of the ban above suggesting that the lives of rural vermin are worth more than the livelihoods of working people in areas where travel is often difficult, training limited and traditions strong?
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fckem its inhumane!


if there are job shortages and infrastructure issues thats a different issue...

if the fox hunt folk have enough influence to repeal the ban then surely they have influence to push policy on infrastructure and training investment in rural areas.

- - - Updated - - -

southfieldhibby said:
I think that's a wild exaggeration. 1000 maybe directly employed by fox hunting with others benefiting second hand.
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i don't think the figure is that wild, but a lot can be one person employed fully for one day on the day of the hunt, say 6 days a year....its not 10K full time jobs
 
psychocandy said:
I imagine you're right, but its an interesting trade off.

Off the top of my head the following would benefit from the return of the hunt:
- Stable hands
- Farriers/blacksmiths
- Vets
- Farmers who provide horse feed/carcasses for the dogs
- Hunt grooms
- Pub landlords (already being hammered)

I doubt it adds up to more than 1,000 full time position (300ish hunts in England), but is interesting none the less.

Also interesting that after year of complaining about 'Westmonster' some nats now want to impinge on what is clearly an English only issue!
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It doesnt really matter what part time jobs or financial spin offs are being lost though. It's a moral issue and nothing else comes in to it. Fox hunting is barbaric and should be left on the shelf.

Also, this isn't about the SNP impinging on EVEL. Nobody has suggested that they should be voting but are suggesting that if they were invited to vote then we hope they do so and vote against repealing the ban. No need to try to make this a contentious SNP V The World issue when it clearly isnt.
 
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