Fossil fuels vs. Meat

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Brainwrong

Brainwrong

Spaktacuradge
Private Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
What would you chose? Because the research and plain facts of the matter suggest that if we gave up specifically beef, the environment would no longer be on it's last legs. The meat industry dwarfs fossil fuel usage of the car and aviation industries' emissions. It's [the meat industry] use of water is horrific pound for pound of beef produced.

Personally, I'd rather taxis, cars and planes were around for a few more lifetimes until we figure out an alternative, than this wasteful [meat] industry.

Thoughts?
 
I've cut back massively on both, I don't think it's a choice of either/or. meat/transport/palm oil all need addressed. But alot of people in the developed world are selfish and/or ignorant and alot of people in the developing world feel it's only fair they have their turn at all the nice stuff we've had for decades or they're just not educated/don't care.

Try to eat meat only once a week, fish more often, but even that has implications now. The 'meat' alternatives are alright with the right sauce, it's just a case of embracing lifestyle changes.
Rarely drive my car now, today being an exception due to kilmarnock, but car sharing with 4 others!

Governments need to offer better alternatives to cars for city living and long distance commuting. Big fan of trams/trains. Hit petrol/diesel car owners heavily, ban the from city centres, incentivise electric car buyers, put trams on all major urban routes.
 
Brainwrong said:
What would you chose? Because the research and plain facts of the matter suggest that if we gave up specifically beef, the environment would no longer be on it's last legs. The meat industry dwarfs fossil fuel usage of the car and aviation industries' emissions. It's [the meat industry] use of water is horrific pound for pound of beef produced.

Personally, I'd rather taxis, cars and planes were around for a few more lifetimes until we figure out an alternative, than this wasteful [meat] industry.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
Only a vegetarian could come up with that nonsense. As a species, humans are omnivorous it's only our brains that force us to empathise with other species perceived 'feelings' about how we interact (kill to eat) with them. A tiger, for example, also kills to eat and has no such moral anguish.
So, at a base animal level, humans should eat a varied diet including meat because that's how we as a species have evolved. The industrial use of the planet's mineral resources is a man made construct and could be stopped. It won't, but it is possible unlike human evolution.
 
Beagle said:
Only a vegetarian could come up with that nonsense. As a species, humans are omnivorous it's only our brains that force us to empathise with other species perceived 'feelings' about how we interact (kill to eat) with them. A tiger, for example, also kills to eat and has no such moral anguish.
So, at a base animal level, humans should eat a varied diet including meat because that's how we as a species have evolved. The industrial use of the planet's mineral resources is a man made construct and could be stopped. It won't, but it is possible unlike human evolution.
Click to expand...
It's a crowded field, but this might be the biggest load of pish I've read on here.
 
Beagle said:
Well it has competition with the amount of guff you have just slavered as well
Click to expand...
OK, tell me, do tigers deforest vast swathes of land to allow cows to feed for them to eat? Do tigers transport their kill in lorries and planes around the world emitting huge amounts of carbon contributing to global warming and rising sea levels?

Where did the op mention anything about any kind of empathy towards any animal killed for consumption?
 
Are all those folk that want us tae stop eating meat going tae stop buying cheap clothes fae primark etc that you wear a couple of times and throw away and are shipped halfway round the world, cheap tv and electrical goods that are shipped halfway round the world, out of season fruit and veg that are shipped halfway round the world and stop drinking tea and coffee that is shipped halfway round the world the production of which, along with palm oil etc are one of the causes of deforestation.
 
I love a steak, or beef chili, or stew...……………….. I could go on, but I'm getting hungry.


But if it was that stark choice, I'll choose keeping my car and jetting off on holidays and stick to salads.
 
paigntonhibby said:
Are all those folk that want us tae stop eating meat going tae stop buying cheap clothes fae primark etc that you wear a couple of times and throw away and are shipped halfway round the world, cheap tv and electrical goods that are shipped halfway round the world, out of season fruit and veg that are shipped halfway round the world and stop drinking tea and coffee that is shipped halfway round the world the production of which, along with palm oil etc are one of the causes of deforestation.
Click to expand...
No worries, Brexit will solve that one :)
 
southfieldhibby said:
OK, tell me, do tigers deforest vast swathes of land to allow cows to feed for them to eat? Do tigers transport their kill in lorries and planes around the world emitting huge amounts of carbon contributing to global warming and rising sea levels?

Where did the op mention anything about any kind of empathy towards any animal killed for consumption?
Click to expand...
The use of a tiger was as an example of how another species relates to the food it eats. But then you knew that and were just trying to be a smart arse.
If folk want to eat food other than meat then that's their prerogative but dinnae start trying to equate it with the planet's ills.
 
paigntonhibby said:
Are all those folk that want us tae stop eating meat going tae stop buying cheap clothes fae primark etc that you wear a couple of times and throw away and are shipped halfway round the world, cheap tv and electrical goods that are shipped halfway round the world, out of season fruit and veg that are shipped halfway round the world and stop drinking tea and coffee that is shipped halfway round the world the production of which, along with palm oil etc are one of the causes of deforestation.
Click to expand...
These are good points, and need to be addressed to. Middle class hipsters love of avocados is a major environmental concern, as is palm oil production. I'd take a punt that most 'right on' type folk ( I'll include myself here) don't shop at Primark.
 
Beagle said:
The use of a tiger was as an example of how another species relates to the food it eats. But then you knew that and were just trying to be a smart arse.
If folk want to eat food other than meat then that's their prerogative but dinnae start trying to equate it with the planet's ills.
Click to expand...
Mentioning a tiger was just dumb and bore zero relation to the topic.

Not sure I get the last para. Are you saying that red meat ( cows specifically) have nothing to do with climate change?
 
The level of co2 has an 800 year lag, so today's levels are based on temps 800 years ago not what's happening today.
 
Beagle said:
Only a vegetarian could come up with that nonsense. As a species, humans are omnivorous it's only our brains that force us to empathise with other species perceived 'feelings' about how we interact (kill to eat) with them. A tiger, for example, also kills to eat and has no such moral anguish.
So, at a base animal level, humans should eat a varied diet including meat because that's how we as a species have evolved. The industrial use of the planet's mineral resources is a man made construct and could be stopped. It won't, but it is possible unlike human evolution.
Click to expand...

Quotes evolution. then states evolution is finite. Ha ha. Smooth science right there.
 
Brainwrong said:
What would you chose? Because the research and plain facts of the matter suggest that if we gave up specifically beef, the environment would no longer be on it's last legs. The meat industry dwarfs fossil fuel usage of the car and aviation industries' emissions. It's [the meat industry] use of water is horrific pound for pound of beef produced.

Personally, I'd rather taxis, cars and planes were around for a few more lifetimes until we figure out an alternative, than this wasteful [meat] industry.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I remember reading in the past that if we as a species stopped cattle & Sheep faming and turned the lad we currently use for them over to arable, we could produce around 6 times the amount of food we currently do just now.

Forgetting the environment, if humans stopped slaughtering animals, we might stop slaughtering each other..... now, wheres ma blackpudding roll....
 
paigntonhibby said:
Are all those folk that want us tae stop eating meat going tae stop buying cheap clothes fae primark etc that you wear a couple of times and throw away and are shipped halfway round the world, cheap tv and electrical goods that are shipped halfway round the world, out of season fruit and veg that are shipped halfway round the world and stop drinking tea and coffee that is shipped halfway round the world the production of which, along with palm oil etc are one of the causes of deforestation.
Click to expand...
No boat has been used in the deforestation of our planet :sm113:
 
Beagle said:
Only a vegetarian could come up with that nonsense. As a species, humans are omnivorous it's only our brains that force us to empathise with other species perceived 'feelings' about how we interact (kill to eat) with them. A tiger, for example, also kills to eat and has no such moral anguish.
So, at a base animal level, humans should eat a varied diet including meat because that's how we as a species have evolved. The industrial use of the planet's mineral resources is a man made construct and could be stopped. It won't, but it is possible unlike human evolution.
Click to expand...
Yip, our eyes face forward....yip we have incisors..... but to compare us and tigers is fucking vintage :happy-1::happy-1:

We have evolved as a species to completely feed ourselves (every human) without the need to kill anything. A tiger, or any other fecking animal out there kills their meat because they hace to. Base level or no! The modern human does not need to be omnivorous!

Im posting as an onmivore and have leather belts and shoes and had a few vehicles with full leather interiors including the diesel one im driving just now.... so really Im a fucking disgrace:beer-1-prv:
 
davhfc said:
The level of co2 has an 800 year lag, so today's levels are based on temps 800 years ago not what's happening today.
Click to expand...

In the absence of human intervention CO2 does rise and fall over time, due to exchanges of carbon among the biosphere, atmosphere, and ocean and, on the very longest timescales, the lithosphere (i.e. rocks, oil reservoirs, coal, carbonate rocks). The rates of those exchanges are now being completely overwhelmed by the rate at which we are extracting carbon from the latter set of reservoirs and converting it to atmospheric CO2
 
Brainwrong said:
In the absence of human intervention CO2 does rise and fall over time, due to exchanges of carbon among the biosphere, atmosphere, and ocean and, on the very longest timescales, the lithosphere (i.e. rocks, oil reservoirs, coal, carbonate rocks). The rates of those exchanges are now being completely overwhelmed by the rate at which we are extracting carbon from the latter set of reservoirs and converting it to atmospheric CO2
Click to expand...
Thanks for this info, how does co2 heat the planet?
 
emerald green said:
Yip, our eyes face forward....yip we have incisors.... but to compare us and tigers is fucking vintage :happy-1::happy-1:

We have evolved as a species to completely feed ourselves (every human) without the need to kill anything. A tiger, or any other fecking animal out there kills their meat because they hace to. Base level or no! The modern human does not need to be omnivorous!

Im posting as an onmivore and have leather belts and shoes and had a few vehicles with full leather interiors including the diesel one im driving just now.... so really Im a fucking disgrace:beer-1-prv:
Click to expand...
I used tiger as an example (you might have seen that word used) to say why we, as a species, are not that far removed from any other meat eating animal.
You say we are now at such an evolved state that we don't need to kill sheep or cows to maintain a healthy diet. Well I'm afraid that given the choice between a blue cooked steak and fucking tofu or quorn (the likes of which will never cross the threshold of my palate) then the deid animal wins out every time. And the entire world isn't going to change either.
 
Beagle said:
I used tiger as an example (you might have seen that word used) to say why we, as a species, are not that far removed from any other meat eating animal.
You say we are now at such an evolved state that we don't need to kill sheep or cows to maintain a healthy diet. Well I'm afraid that given the choice between a blue cooked steak and fucking tofu or quorn (the likes of which will never cross the threshold of my palate) then the deid animal wins out every time. And the entire world isn't going to change either.
Click to expand...

Your just showing your ignorance mate...ok, your making it very clear that you love the meat :gigglle:... but cmon tae fuck, its coming across like veganism is Neil frae the Young Ones and his pot of fucking lentils!! Its 2019.
 
emerald green said:
Your just showing your ignorance mate...ok, your making it very clear that you love the meat :gigglle:... but cmon tae fuck, its coming across like veganism is Neil frae the Young Ones and his pot of fucking lentils!! Its 2019.
Click to expand...
It's my response to the demonisation of meat eating humans as being one of the great destroyers of the planet. Once they've run out of grass and nettles they'd be turning tae cannibalism to stay alive the same as anyone else
 
The Chinese are opening a coal fired power station every other week. The Amazon rain forest is burning. Two small examples of a huge problem no one seems to want to address. That and all the natural 'pollution' like volcanoes.

I'm not convinced not eating meet or taking the car to the supermarket is going to make any difference whatsoever.

Plastic in the ocean however ...
 
Sir Shrink said:
I love a steak, or beef chili, or stew...……………….. I could go on, but I'm getting hungry.


But if it was that stark choice, I'll choose keeping my car and jetting off on holidays and stick to salads.
Click to expand...
I'm nae scientist but I wid guess that driving a car and jetting off on holidays does a lot mair harm than eating a coo.
 
Beagle said:
I used tiger as an example (you might have seen that word used) to say why we, as a species, are not that far removed from any other meat eating animal.
You say we are now at such an evolved state that we don't need to kill sheep or cows to maintain a healthy diet. Well I'm afraid that given the choice between a blue cooked steak and fucking tofu or quorn (the likes of which will never cross the threshold of my palate) then the deid animal wins out every time. And the entire world isn't going to change either.
Click to expand...

We are really far removed from meat eating animals - we are apes. Chimps eat a small amount of meat (the odd lizard or bird and some cannabilism after fighting) but mainly survive on vegetation and the rest (Gorillas, Orangutans, Bonoboes) are practically vegan other than the odd insect here or there. Our cousin's canine teeth have remained far larger than ours despite their diet, they'll be a handy self defence tool.

Also, Tofu and Quorn are made of beans and fungus respectively, which I'm assuming you already eat.

All of this has nothing to with the environmental impact of industrial meat production though.
 
paigntonhibby said:
I'm nae scientist but I wid guess that driving a car and jetting off on holidays does a lot mair harm than eating a coo.
Click to expand...

Not really. All those animals and subsequent meat need driven and flown around too. That's before you factor in the transport for Thier feed, the water use, the land use....

It's not just their farts as many folk think.
 
Jack said:
The Chinese are opening a coal fired power station every other week. The Amazon rain forest is burning. Two small examples of a huge problem no one seems to want to address. That and all the natural 'pollution' like volcanoes.

I'm not convinced not eating meet or taking the car to the supermarket is going to make any difference whatsoever.

Plastic in the ocean however ...
Click to expand...

you know there's a direct correlation between these two Jack?
 
Two Headed Boy said:
We are really far removed from meat eating animals - we are apes. Chimps eat a small amount of meat (the odd lizard or bird and some cannabilism after fighting) but mainly survive on vegetation and the rest (Gorillas, Orangutans, Bonoboes) are practically vegan other than the odd insect here or there. Our cousin's canine teeth have remained far larger than ours despite their diet, they'll be a handy self defence tool.

Also, Tofu and Quorn are made of beans and fungus respectively, which I'm assuming you already eat.

All of this has nothing to with the environmental impact of industrial meat production though.
Click to expand...
Chimps actually like nothing better than a monkey delicacy, they actually spend a lot of energy hunting them even when other food is readily available. And have you ever flown across industrial agricultural land ,eg the great plains, and saw the environmental impact, added to fertilizer runoff and the drying up of rivers for water diversion. Meat eaters do have an impact but so does everyone else that eats for a living.
 
davhfc said:
Thanks for this info, how does co2 heat the planet?
Click to expand...

No stress, man :)

We know CO2 absorbs and re-emits longwave radiation (Tyndall). The theory of greenhouse gases predicts that if we increase the proportion of greenhouse gases, more warming will occur (Arrhenius).

Scientists have measured the influence of CO2 on both incoming solar energy and outgoing long-wave radiation. Less longwave radiation is escaping to space at the specific wavelengths of greenhouse gases. Increased longwave radiation is measured at the surface of the Earth at the same wavelengths.
 
Beagle said:
It's my response to the demonisation of meat eating humans as being one of the great destroyers of the planet. Once they've run out of grass and nettles they'd be turning tae cannibalism to stay alive the same as anyone else
Click to expand...

Demonisation is probably a bit strong.... I think its more like e.g. methane from their arseholes, and the amount of land that they need...
(Were no even getting into the morals and ethics of modern farming)

We will fix the problem as we are no far off making the meat from testubes (as one example)...

So youll be able to eat your flesh until you die, no problems. As stated earlier, Im still eating meat, but Im no daft enough to say that the global mechanisms for getting it on our plates isnae detrimental to our planet!

And if we do turn to cannabalism, Ill be going for the gunt. I'll take bites oot the bastards as they walk past me in the street.... and Id definately get a tasting for eating their young. (after a good cleaning, the manky bastards)
 
paigntonhibby said:
Chimps actually like nothing better than a monkey delicacy, they actually spend a lot of energy hunting them even when other food is readily available. And have you ever flown across industrial agricultural land ,eg the great plains, and saw the environmental impact, added to fertilizer runoff and the drying up of rivers for water diversion. Meat eaters do have an impact but so does everyone else that eats for a living.
Click to expand...

Yeah they eat wee monkeys too. Still mainly veg but. It doesn't change the fact we are not like tigers and neither are our closest relatives. Humans don't need meat. We enjoy it and are lucky to have such an energy rich food source readily available, but like our Chimp pals and their meat it's a "delicacy" not what our bodies are built for.

The rest of that is true but ultimately whataboutery. Agricultural practices could be improved wholesale but that doesn't change the original point - meat production produces less food with more impact.
 
Jack said:
Yup. But its not just meat they're torching the place. Other types of farming is in there too.
Click to expand...

Cattle ranching is the largest driver of deforestation in every Amazon country, accounting for 80% of current deforestation rates. Amazon Brazil is home to approximately 200 million head of cattle, and is the largest exporter in the world, supplying about one quarter of the global market. Low input cost and easy transportation in rural areas make ranching an attractive economic activity in the forest frontier; low yields and cheap land encourage expansion and deforestation. Approximately 450,000 square kilometers of deforested Amazon in Brazil are now in cattle pasture. Cattle ranching and soy cultivation are often linked as soy replaces cattle pasture, pushing farmers farther into the Amazon.
 
paigntonhibby said:
Chimps actually like nothing better than a monkey delicacy, they actually spend a lot of energy hunting them even when other food is readily available. And have you ever flown across industrial agricultural land ,eg the great plains, and saw the environmental impact, added to fertilizer runoff and the drying up of rivers for water diversion. Meat eaters do have an impact but so does everyone else that eats for a living.
Click to expand...
Thats true about some Chimp families... but again, we cannae compare to humans, as chimps (much like the gunt) like to throw shit at themselves and (much like the gunt) like to wank of incessently in the woods.... but the chimp doesnae have a world vision and doesnae have a clue about the consequence of their actions, so basically (much like the gunt), they are as thick as shit.
 
emerald green said:
Demonisation is probably a bit strong.... I think its more like e.g. methane from their arseholes, and the amount of land that they need...
(Were no even getting into the morals and ethics of modern farming)

We will fix the problem as we are no far off making the meat from testubes (as one example)....

So youll be able to eat your flesh until you die, no problems. As stated earlier, Im still eating meat, but Im no daft enough to say that the global mechanisms for getting it on our plates isnae detrimental to our planet!

And if we do turn to cannabalism, Ill be going for the gunt. I'll take bites oot the bastards as they walk past me in the street.... and Id definately get a tasting for eating their young. (after a good cleaning, the manky bastards)
Click to expand...
I think we should eat the vegetarians and vegans. After all, the meat that comes from coos, sheep etc tastes great and they eat grass and nettles too
 
Jack said:
The Chinese are opening a coal fired power station every other week. The Amazon rain forest is burning. Two small examples of a huge problem no one seems to want to address. That and all the natural 'pollution' like volcanoes.

I'm not convinced not eating meet or taking the car to the supermarket is going to make any difference whatsoever.

Plastic in the ocean however ...
Click to expand...
Dinnae laugh, and I cannae quantify this, but I recently read that scientists (possibly japan /korea iirc) have produced a micro organism which "eats" plastic! ... and its poop is 100 bio degradable....
 
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