Flag Debate USA

It's probably got other commonalities with Scotland; the south was on the losing side of history, and assimilated ink a union with a more powerful neighbour - sound familiar?

I expect the sentiments behind the flag are related to those experience by scots in brave heart mode. I 'd agree with the article that it was all about far more than slavery.
 
150 year old flag debate!

We've got pubs older than that were the same arguments have been raging since they opened.
 
It's probably got other commonalities with Scotland; the south was on the losing side of history, and assimilated ink a union with a more powerful neighbour - sound familiar?

I expect the sentiments behind the flag are related to those experience by scots in brave heart mode. I 'd agree with the article that it was all about far more than slavery.

Allowing for some minor local resistance here and there, and the facts that the Southern political elite took very little heed of their white working class and dictated both public opinion and policy throughout the South, it can be stated without any hesitation that secession and civil war were the direct consequences of Southern slavery. The South would not have seceded and there would have been no war without that defining factor.

The Southern states in 1860 were still pre-industrialised economies, utterly dependent on slavery. Their prosperity (not widely shared), their capital, their culture and their institutions were each founded on the principal that the natural preserve of black people was slavery (please note: there were no white slaves in the United States in 1860). Those states that seceded from the Union in 1860/61 broke away in order to preserve slavery in their own domains, because they were frustrated that the North was preventing the extension of slavery into the new territories of the United States and because they feared that the North was intent on abolishing slavery entirely. They said so unequivocally at every opportunity, in conventions, in speeches, in state legislative houses, in newspaper articles and editorials, in letters. Their representatives and senators proclaimed the same on the floors of both houses in Washington and it was the platform of those from their side who ran in the 1860 presidential election ace.

The Southern political elite had bullied and threatened the rest of the United States since independence, distorting the democratic balance, suppressing with violence anyone in the South who opposed slavery, to ensure that the 'special institution' was preserved. The comment I find most laughable in that article is the one claiming that most Southerners abhorred slavery. To abhor slavery in the pre-war South was to invite tarring and feathering and running out of town at the very least!

When Lincoln was democratically elected in 1860 on a ticket opposing the extension of slavery into the new territories the South threw its toys out the pram and seceded. They made no secret that they split because of slavery. In every instance it was written into their declarations of independence and their constitutions in the clearest possible language -- some of these documents virtually talk of nothing else.

The North went to war to preserve the union, the South went to war to preserve slavery. There may have been other minor differences, on trade and tariffs for instance, but everything leads back to slavery. The myth promoted by Southern apologists since the end of the Civil War that the South fought for something other than slavery is just that, a myth.
 
With the logic that southerners are essentially only paying respect to their war dead roots which they've traced back to the civil war, it stands to reason that honest, innocent German families should be just as free to fly the swastika to honour the soldiers in their familes that died fighting for their country.
 
With the logic that southerners are essentially only paying respect to their war dead roots which they've traced back to the civil war, it stands to reason that honest, innocent German families should be just as free to fly the swastika to honour the soldiers in their familes that died fighting for their country.
Big difference between regular German soldiers and Nazi stormtroopers.
 
With the logic that southerners are essentially only paying respect to their war dead roots which they've traced back to the civil war, it stands to reason that honest, innocent German families should be just as free to fly the swastika to honour the soldiers in their familes that died fighting for their country.

Swastika is not the flag of a country but a political organisation. The kkk flag would be a better comparison to it than the confederate flag
 
How about the Russian* one, you see them in towns with it flying as they try & sell their political bollocks. No one blinks an eye.


*hammer & sickle
 
Swastika is not the flag of a country but a political organisation. The kkk flag would be a better comparison to it than the confederate flag

This is also not my point. The comparison is not entirely the question here. What I'm saying is folk killed in the name of an evil, but the Southerners in this instance are say that the evil doesn't matter because the soldiers still died fighting for what they believed in. That can also just as easily be applied to the soldiers of the Turd Reich. It's not so much to do with the technicalities of the flag, more to do with what it's associated with for different people; blacks / Jews / anyone with any empathy.
 
Swastika is not the flag of a country but a political organisation. The kkk flag would be a better comparison to it than the confederate flag



It was both. It was the Nazi Party flag and was adopted as the national flag of Germany during the war years.
 
This is also not my point. The comparison is not entirely the question here. What I'm saying is folk killed in the name of an evil, but the Southerners in this instance are say that the evil doesn't matter because the soldiers still died fighting for what they believed in. That can also just as easily be applied to the soldiers of the Turd Reich. It's not so much to do with the technicalities of the flag, more to do with what it's associated with for different people; blacks / Jews / anyone with any empathy.

Still dispute its the same; the confederate flag represented a nascent country which had many dimensions to it as countries do; one was the evil of slavery. That is different than the NSDAP swastika flag, which unlike the german flag, is completely synonymous with nazism.

As Tomsk notes above, northern industrialisation allowed them to become reform minded over slavery where the agrarian south could not so readily; a fine example of the progressive power of capitalism.
 
It was both. It was the Nazi Party flag and was adopted as the national flag of Germany during the war years.

View attachment 4483

Not sure how good this image is gonna be but it is a picture of a 1938 Atlas - Swastika (see edit below) shown as Germany flag.

I think the issue with the confederate flag is confusing but clearly some folk are bullshitting about their motives for using it / wanting to fly it.

Edit - Nex is correct, I should say the swastika symbol is shown on the Germany flag. To be honest I reckon for nations heavily impacted by the Second World War the swastika is forever tarnished as a symbol and will never be seen in any other context.
 
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It's probably got other commonalities with Scotland; the south was on the losing side of history, and assimilated ink a union with a more powerful neighbour - sound familiar?

Not really, Scotland was SUPPOSED to be part of a "Union of Equals", it was our King that unified the crowns after all. That in the end a fast one was pulled and south east Englandshire opinion is the only one that has ever mattered still makes it different from the American unification.

I expect the sentiments behind the flag are related to those experience by scots in brave heart mode.

Oh so I have to be in "brave heart mode" to see the Saltire as the flag of my country and dislike the butcher's apron? Fair enough guess I'm never out of that mode.

It was both. It was the Nazi Party flag and was adopted as the national flag of Germany during the war years.

Not entirely accurate.

The Nazi Party flag (which was also used for Nazi Germany) is a specific design though one which did indeed incorporate a swastika, but the swastika itself is just a symbol.

I don't remember skulls or the skull and crossbones being banned yet the SS were rather fond of those Totenkopfverbnde of theirs.

Of course going into the "why do people let the legacy of the Nazi Party include destroying a symbol which is thousands of years old and appears in the history of numerous cultures " is a tad off topic.
 
Nex, by brave heart mode I did not mean political nationalism, but sentimentalism of the kind tht unionists are equally prone to. I meant that intentionally as I suspect the latter is associated with the confederate flag rather than any serious political agenda to secede from the union. I don't understand the relevance of the distinctions in circumstance you opened with - if anything it suggests a stronger basis for confederate nationalism than Scottish, but I don't think this degree of nuance really comes into it.

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The whole Scottish angle in the American souths shadier aspects is a salutary reminder of the intolerant streak in the Scottish character which keeps shifting in form and severity but is a constant. Today it finds expression in authoritarian PC, but God help us if Scotland ever gets english levels of immigration.
 
It was both. It was the Nazi Party flag and was adopted as the national flag of Germany during the war years.


Ironic that the swastica was a symbol of peace and still used by a national party in India with some variation



On the same note though, I suppose some people find it interesting or even rebellious to use flags of countries where romantic stories can be made up. Braveheart of course drummed up a lot of sentiment and seemed to encourage an idea of freedom from tyranny, The many depictions of Che on flags and t-shirts, the idea that confederate south represents freedom from the overpowering and all conquering Washington will certainly attract some. History can be re-written and fact matters little. Just look at how Hearts re-write the first world war. Doubtless if they ever become defunct we will experience decades of their flag representing the fight against Irish influx or some such rubbish.
 
Still dispute its the same; the confederate flag represented a nascent country which had many dimensions to it as countries do; one was the evil of slavery. That is different than the NSDAP swastika flag, which unlike the german flag, is completely synonymous with nazism.

As Tomsk notes above, northern industrialisation allowed them to become reform minded over slavery where the agrarian south could not so readily; a fine example of the progressive power of capitalism.


I am sorry, EGB, I did not say that. I am not convinced there is a significant causal relationship between Northern industrialisation and anti-slavery movements there. While the North was better suited to industrialisation than the South the actual extent of industrial activity in the North during the period when slavery was effectively abolished there, between independence and the Missouri compromise of 1820, was so thinly spread that it cannot have been a determining factor in the abolition of slavery. The North was still predominantly an agrarian economy even on the eve of Civil War. The free labour movements in the North were opposed to the use of slave labour in agriculture, not factories. Slavery was not considered a threat to factory workers; the found their bogeymen in cheap, undercutting immigrant labour from the likes of Germany and Ireland.

Industrialisation in the North, such as it was during the late 18th century and early 19th century, and the abolition movement there ran in parallel with one another, really barely touching.

But one thing's for sure: the Southern slave holders regarded their slaves as their capital, just as any mill owner in New York regarded their factory. It was the North's form of capitalism that won over the South's form of capitalism and any progressive overspill was purely accidental.

The South was heading for a fall, Civil War or no. They grew and picked cotton, and allowing for generalisation, that was all they did. They didn't even transport it, relying on Northern shipping lines. They certainly didn't make it into anything, that's what the dark satanic mill in Lancashire did. Growing a single crop was exhausting their soil. They were going to have to adapt their economy or die. In my view, such was the hold that the planter class had on their social and cultural structure that change would have been impossible without some form of social revolution. The Civil War presented that opportunity. They fluffed it.