Felony murder


Very strange indeed...
The ol US of A can be very backwards.
They also say "a deserved killing" I'm sure folk will differ on that, who's to say someone could know they are not armed and still kill them knowing they will get away with it, even worse, like this case, someone else does the time for a killing he never done.
But guns are their lifestyle choice and with it comes disaster after disaster, then they just call for more guns....
 

That's fukking bizzare M. OK the boy shouldnt have broken in to the guys house but he should be charged with that - breaking and entering [or the US equivalent]. How the fukk can he be guilty of any kind of murder when A] He didn't have a weapon and B] He didn't kill anyone.
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Is Craig Thompson the judge by any chance :dunno:
 
If he doesn't it'll keep him away from other folks hard earned stuff

No of course it is but if he wasn't there trying to steal other folks things nobody would have died and the sentence would be irrelevant .
Have you ever been woken up by someone breaking into your house ?
 
I can somewhat understand it. He was responsible for the person catching fire because he broke in to the house. Here in the States you have to assume someone that's breaking in will be armed. I know if someone is breaking in to my manor I will most likely open fire and ask questions later.

Just imagine a scenario where it's 3:00 am and you hear a door opening or window breaking. It's dark and you hear someone in your house. Are you going to wait until they attack you or your family? I'm not that's for sure.
 
I can somewhat understand it. He was responsible for the person catching fire because he broke in to the house. Here in the States you have to assume someone that's breaking in will be armed. I know if someone is breaking in to my manor I will most likely open fire and ask questions later.

Just imagine a scenario where it's 3:00 am and you hear a door opening or window breaking. It's dark and you hear someone in your house. Are you going to wait until they attack you or your family? I'm not that's for sure.
Fine shoot him dead but I don't see why his wounded friend should get 55 years, sentence him for burglary not murder.
 
I can somewhat understand it. He was responsible for the person catching fire because he broke in to the house. Here in the States you have to assume someone that's breaking in will be armed. I know if someone is breaking in to my manor I will most likely open fire and ask questions later.

Just imagine a scenario where it's 3:00 am and you hear a door opening or window breaking. It's dark and you hear someone in your house. Are you going to wait until they attack you or your family? I'm not that's for sure.

You gotta be kidding right? You can understand a guy being sentenced to 55 years in prison for being shot? Wow, god bless America eh!
 
You gotta be kidding right? You can understand a guy being sentenced to 55 years in prison for being shot? Wow, god bless America eh!

I'm not saying I agree with it, but understand why. Had he not broken in to the house not shot would have been fired.
 
You can look at it from both sides. You have the farmer in England jailed for shooting the boy after being burgled multiple times. In this case it's a pretty severe punishment, but will make anyone think twice about breaking in. The story makes them out to be innocent you boys, but reading between the lines I don't think so. Sounds like they finished off smoking what weed they had, and felt entitled to rob some working class guys house to buy more weed.
 
A few year ago my flat got broken in to. They took my tv my DVD , my computer, which had of course lots of pictures and personal data on it. They took credit cards , passports, personal letters, and jewellery , some of which my granda had worn during the war.
They took my confidence, heeps of my time, and I am still paying for it.

I would have shot the bustards if I got the chance. I wish they were doing a 50 year stretch.
 
[MENTION=11151]SuperTortolano[/MENTION] am no saying they dinnae deserve to be punished, of course they do! But ffs, the boy was shot and saw he pal killed, and he's now facing 55 yrs inside as the American justice system holds him responsible? Thats no right imo is all
 
[MENTION=11151]SuperTortolano[/MENTION] am no saying they dinnae deserve to be punished, of course they do! But ffs, the boy was shot and saw he pal killed, and he's now facing 55 yrs inside as the American justice system holds him responsible? Thats no right imo is all

I'm with you Wavy old chap..It seems bizarre that he can be done for murder.
 
[MENTION=11151]SuperTortolano[/MENTION] am no saying they dinnae deserve to be punished, of course they do! But ffs, the boy was shot and saw he pal killed, and he's now facing 55 yrs inside as the American justice system holds him responsible? Thats no right imo is all

There is as always 2 sides to this though.

If they did not commit the crime, the lad would still be alive. Nobody can argue with that
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It dosent sound like they broke in because they were starving does it.

I hate thieving wee shytes.
 
You can look at it from both sides. You have the farmer in England jailed for shooting the boy after being burgled multiple times. In this case it's a pretty severe punishment, but will make anyone think twice about breaking in. The story makes them out to be innocent you boys, but reading between the lines I don't think so. Sounds like they finished off smoking what weed they had, and felt entitled to rob some working class guys house to buy more weed.

Yeah because the justice system really works in America Eh.
Death row and life means life in the jail really does stop crime.....
Getting done for something you clearly haven't done is surely a crime in itself
 
Yeah because the justice system really works in America Eh.
Death row and life means life in the jail really does stop crime.....
Getting done for something you clearly haven't done is surely a crime in itself

What justice system does work?
I'm intrigued. :hmmm
 
Much prefer the justice system in the US than the soft as shite system the UK has. Guys getting 3-4 years for murder and fiddling bairns, now that's a joke.
 
Much prefer the justice system in the US than the soft as shite system the UK has. Guys getting 3-4 years for murder and fiddling bairns, now that's a joke.

Whilst 55 years for breaking and entering and getting shot in the process is perfectly fair.
 
There is as always 2 sides to this though.

If they did not commit the crime, the lad would still be alive. Nobody can argue with that
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It dosent sound like they broke in because they were starving does it.

I hate thieving wee shytes.

Again, when did I say he was innocent? Ffs, the laddie got a bullet in his leg, and had to watch his friend die next to him, and he is facing his life behind bars for someone else shooting him! Lol and thats just is it? Whatever lol

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Much prefer the justice system in the US than the soft as shite system the UK has. Guys getting 3-4 years for murder and fiddling bairns, now that's a joke.

This isn't a debate about which country has the better justice system though is it? If you think its a fair sentence, then your clearly suited to Yankeville :thumbgrin
 
I'm sure a lad I used to play football with told me that his dad set about a guy who was in the process of stealing all his stuff and that his dad ended up in court over it..

They're allowed to shoot, we're not allowed to defend :dunno:

55 years is mental, I get that he partially caused the sequence of events but no way that's a fair sentence... Isn't it all about the prosecutors over there? They can nail you for ever detail and then use all the wee ones as a bribe for the big one.
 
For the record I don't think the boy should be charged with murder or given such a severe sentence, but can understand why. Every state will have different laws, and in most he wouldn't be given this sentence. Sometimes I see some sentences and laws here and think they are batshit crazy. Back hame I'm still appalled at some of the lenient sentences handed out to scumbags too.

The takeaway driver that was killed in Lochend still bothers me, as it was 10 minutes from where I grew up. Those scumbags got next to no sentence and a cushy number in the jail. I will say I'm for harsher punishment than lenient.
 
Two,wrongs don't make a right. The light touch sentencing In the uk is at times sickening - but 55 years for this 'murder' is obscene.

It fails any legitimate basis for sentencing - and I am far from a pinko in these matters -

- in terms of punishment - it is grossly disproportionate to his malign intention to rob plus reckless causing of the situation
- in terms of rehabilitation / redemption, it's a non starter - he will learn nothing; his life is over, destroyed
- in terms of public saftey, the massive cost of such a lengthy incarceration is totally disproportionate to the risk he presents (at least based on the account of this crime, I don't know his wider form, if any)

His actions caused the death of another - I think the principle is valid - but it should be more on a par with culpable homicide than murder which suggests an all important intent. 15 years seems more appropriate to me.
 
For the record I don't think the boy should be charged with murder or given such a severe sentence, but can understand why. Every state will have different laws, and in most he wouldn't be given this sentence. Sometimes I see some sentences and laws here and think they are batshit crazy. Back hame I'm still appalled at some of the lenient sentences handed out to scumbags too.

The takeaway driver that was killed in Lochend still bothers me, as it was 10 minutes from where I grew up. Those scumbags got next to no sentence and a cushy number in the jail. I will say I'm for harsher punishment than lenient.

I stay 2 minutes from that takeaway, and use it too, so I agree that sentences here can be soft and aint arguing some should be harsher btw.
 
Two,wrongs don't make a right. The light touch sentencing In the uk is at times sickening - but 55 years for this 'murder' is obscene.

It fails any legitimate basis for sentencing - and I am far from a pinko in these matters -

- in terms of punishment - it is grossly disproportionate to his malign intention to rob plus reckless causing of the situation
- in terms of rehabilitation / redemption, it's a non starter - he will learn nothing; his life is over, destroyed
- in terms of public saftey, the massive cost of such a lengthy incarceration is totally disproportionate to the risk he presents (at least based on the account of this crime, I don't know his wider form, if any)

His actions caused the death of another - I think the principle is valid - but it should be more on a par with culpable homicide than murder which suggests an all important intent. 15 years seems more appropriate to me.


I agree with that.
 
Two,wrongs don't make a right. The light touch sentencing In the uk is at times sickening - but 55 years for this 'murder' is obscene.

It fails any legitimate basis for sentencing - and I am far from a pinko in these matters -

- in terms of punishment - it is grossly disproportionate to his malign intention to rob plus reckless causing of the situation
- in terms of rehabilitation / redemption, it's a non starter - he will learn nothing; his life is over, destroyed
- in terms of public saftey, the massive cost of such a lengthy incarceration is totally disproportionate to the risk he presents (at least based on the account of this crime, I don't know his wider form, if any)

His actions caused the death of another - I think the principle is valid - but it should be more on a par with culpable homicide than murder which suggests an all important intent. 15 years seems more appropriate to me.

agree with all that apart from possibly the sentence - for a adult criminal with previous in that situation 15 years would seem to meet your tests yes, but for a kid with no history of trouble i still think 15 years is way over the top. 55 years is obscene though. 4-7 yrs for me depending on his defense.

ps the 'right' to shoot someone in your own home in the US is really disturbing - defense of your life is fine but defense of your property that doesnt justify a killing in my view. the case referred to above in England was pretty much how a justice system should deal with this type of incident in my view.
 
The problem with those long sentences is that unless you're black juries usually try to find a way out of convicting because they end up considering them disproportionate.
 
Two,wrongs don't make a right. The light touch sentencing In the uk is at times sickening - but 55 years for this 'murder' is obscene.

It fails any legitimate basis for sentencing - and I am far from a pinko in these matters -

- in terms of punishment - it is grossly disproportionate to his malign intention to rob plus reckless causing of the situation
- in terms of rehabilitation / redemption, it's a non starter - he will learn nothing; his life is over, destroyed
- in terms of public saftey, the massive cost of such a lengthy incarceration is totally disproportionate to the risk he presents (at least based on the account of this crime, I don't know his wider form, if any)

His actions caused the death of another - I think the principle is valid - but it should be more on a par with culpable homicide than murder which suggests an all important intent. 15 years seems more appropriate to me.

15 years is still mental. He broke in to a house with his mates and got shot at by someone who presumably will be hailed a hero for murdering a young lad while this cat takes the fall.

This "reckless causing of the situation" you are relying on here is nonsense as well. He broke in to a fukking house. He didn't wave a gun around and threaten people causing the home owner to retaliate, instead the owner got his retaliation in first. He didn't recklessly cause his pal to be shot. If you think that 15 years is a solid sentence for B&E then you're as much of a fruitcake as the septics.
 
agree with all that apart from possibly the sentence - for a adult criminal with previous in that situation 15 years would seem to meet your tests yes, but for a kid with no history of trouble i still think 15 years is way over the top. 55 years is obscene though. 4-7 yrs for me depending on his defense.

ps the 'right' to shoot someone in your own home in the US is really disturbing - defense of your life is fine but defense of your property that doesnt justify a killing in my view. the case referred to above in England was pretty much how a justice system should deal with this type of incident in my view.


I disagree, I think the right to shoot someone breaking in to your home is perfectly okay. You don't know what the person's intentions are when breaking in. Is it to rob, rape or murder the occupants? The homeowner may be a single mother who needs to defend her and her children. It's such a grey area and that's why I think the black and white law of being able to shoot an intruder works.

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15 years is still mental. He broke in to a house with his mates and got shot at by someone who presumably will be hailed a hero for murdering a young lad while this cat takes the fall.

This "reckless causing of the situation" you are relying on here is nonsense as well. He broke in to a fukking house. He didn't wave a gun around and threaten people causing the home owner to retaliate, instead the owner got his retaliation in first. He didn't recklessly cause his pal to be shot. If you think that 15 years is a solid sentence for B&E then you're as much of a fruitcake as the septics.

Look at it from the homeowners point of view. He wakes up from a nap to find a bunch of you men in his house. He doesn't know if they are armed or what's going on. I'd be shooting first and asking questions later too. What if it had been the wife or kid that caught a stay bullet while he was trying to defend his home? I would then agree with the murder sentence.
 
I remember a particularly sage piece of advice I heard when I was younger when I tried the "It wisnae me, it wis ma pal" line.

I was told "If you fly with the crows, you get shot with the crows".
 
I'm not sure if you are asking a question here or not. But if you are involved in an incident, let's say there are 3 of you who go to someone's house and your 2 mates beat the $#@! outta the homeowner. If you get lifted, you're getting charged with the same as your 2 mates, regardless of whether you threw any punches.

this is true in many cases, and its a complete travesty. Joint enterprise is being used to convict masses of people guilty of nothing. See here for a bit more details
Joint enterprise murder: ancient law jailing hundreds, say FOI reports | Law | The Guardian
 
15 years is still mental. He broke in to a house with his mates and got shot at by someone who presumably will be hailed a hero for murdering a young lad while this cat takes the fall.

This "reckless causing of the situation" you are relying on here is nonsense as well. He broke in to a fukking house. He didn't wave a gun around and threaten people causing the home owner to retaliate, instead the owner got his retaliation in first. He didn't recklessly cause his pal to be shot. If you think that 15 years is a solid sentence for B&E then you're as much of a fruitcake as the septics.
If two neds broke into my house tonight while I was on nightshift and my Mrs was alone and the baby in the nursery, the wee dicks wouldn't have to leave the living room, nevermind touch either of them, to absolutely destroy her life. 15 years for breaking into a home is more than fair.
 
15 years is still mental. He broke in to a house with his mates and got shot at by someone who presumably will be hailed a hero for murdering a young lad while this cat takes the fall.

This "reckless causing of the situation" you are relying on here is nonsense as well. He broke in to a fukking house. He didn't wave a gun around and threaten people causing the home owner to retaliate, instead the owner got his retaliation in first. He didn't recklessly cause his pal to be shot. If you think that 15 years is a solid sentence for B&E then you're as much of a fruitcake as the septics.

He absolutely did recklessly cause his pal to be shot. No robbery, and indeed invasion of someone's home, no-one would have got shot.

Drink drivers don't intend to kill anyone and 999 out of a 1000 don't. But the ones who do get the book flung at them and rightly so; they may not have intended to kill but their reckless actions brought about the circumstances - it's the same here.

The bottom line, cliched but true, is don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Incidentally, some of the brouhaha about homeowner shootings strikes me as otherworldly - I'm not saying they are right to do what they do, but I do feel that critics seem remarkably insulated at times. Faced with two young thugs, in such circumstances, you've plenty chance of getting kicked to bits, possibly to death.

The whole assumption of over-reaction strikes me as strange - people get brain damaged and killed all the time challenging criminals without an advantage in weaponry - a bloody professional boxer did recently, never mind your average joe. I'm sure there is over reaction in many cases, but I also suspect it's nowhere near as black and white as bleeding hearts would have it.
 
He absolutely did recklessly cause his pal to be shot. No robbery, and indeed invasion of someone's home, no-one would have got shot.

Drink drivers don't intend to kill anyone and 999 out of a 1000 don't. But the ones who do get the book flung at them and rightly so; they may not have intended to kill but their reckless actions brought about the circumstances - it's the same here.

The bottom line, cliched but true, is don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Incidentally, some of the brouhaha about homeowner shootings strikes me as otherworldly - I'm not saying they are right to do what they do, but I do feel that critics seem remarkably insulated at times. Faced with two young thugs, in such circumstances, you've plenty chance of getting kicked to bits, possibly to death.

The whole assumption of over-reaction strikes me as strange - people get brain damaged and killed all the time challenging criminals without an advantage in weaponry - a bloody professional boxer did recently, never mind your average joe. I'm sure there is over reaction in many cases, but I also suspect it's nowhere near as black and white as bleeding hearts would have it.

I see we aren't going to agree which is fine because that's what debate is all about.

Your analogy of the drunk drivers is not valid in my opinion. If you go out and get drunk and get in your car to drive it then you deserve what you get - I totally agree with that because a car is a dangerous weapon and driver went out and got drunk knowing he/she would probably drive home and in that respect it is reckless endagerment but breaking in to a house unarmed [and being shot into the bargain] pales in to insignificance compared to that.

It's quite scary that superjoe has happily stated he would shoot first and ask questions later. The root cause of the problem here is not the lad who broke in or even the homeowner [although shooting first is alien to people over here] but the incredibly bonkers "right to bear arms" in the USA.
 
Dub living here in the States requires a different mind set. Where I'd usually blast my horn at someone driving like a twat back home, I won't here. Back home worst case you get in to a pager, here you could easily get shot.

I wouldn't "happily" shoot someone breaking in to my house but I would shoot them. My reasons are very simple. I'm not waiting around or guessing if they too are armed. Those vital seconds could cost mine or my families life's.

Gun control is a completely other debate. Most crime is committed by people who illegally own a firearm, not those who own them legally.