Edinburgh Leisure

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Davy

Davy

get off yer bum an sing radge
Private Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Threatening to close much of their centres, swimming pools etc. Begs the question, why is the council so inept at running things? We are seeing in the wider community a large push towards fitness and private gyms opening everywhere. I was a member of Exercise4less in Wester Hailes which then became JD gyms and doubled its fee but still attracts people. I have recently moved out to East Lothian and initially joined pure gym at the fort, but quitting it in favour of East Lothian council gyms/swimming. But I have to ask a few questions. Why are private gyms winning when council gyms are threatened with closure? Is it that they use older expensive buildings in sought after areas? The council to my mind do not look after their housing very well. I was in a Prospect housing association flat for just shy of £400 a month for 2 bedroom flat which had all mod cons. To my mind the future is in rewarding the housing associations who offer best value for money.

And so to the leisure. It has been reported in the EEN that there is a black hole and one suggestion is to put fees up 8% Oh boy wow, what genius came up with that? Raise prices when the fare you offer is already inferior to the private gyms, my local gym is now in Haddington which boasts a standard size swimming pool and 2 small rooms they call gyms with to be fair some decent machines but no free weights. However if say 10 people turned up at once there could be a problem getting on the machine you want. On the plus side there is a caveat of a swimming pool, sauna and steam room. I managed to get half price being one of the over 60 brigade, but totally understand that those below 60 would find it in no way value for money.

So why raise prices? Why not cut prices, bring in more equipment and take the fight to the private gyms knowing you have that swimming pool, sauna, steam room and cafe? Why not give incentives to people to want to stay local and save on greenhouse gases? Someone more savvy than me can tell me why not?
 
I don’t know the actual figures for Edinburgh, but I can give a perspective based on the Leisure offering via the councils’s ALEO in Perth.

Outdated buildings that are not energy efficient, require constant capital for maintenance, rising fuel costs, paying the living wage and keeping memberships low to ensure those facing the cost of living crisis still have access .. all leads to a substantial budget deficit and when councils are having the block grant cut in real terms they have to seriously consider cutting loss making facilities to try and balance the budget.

In Perth the Leisure Pool and the ice rink are losing around £1/2m a year. It’s not sustainable, and that leads to speculation about closure. However, closure will be a last resort and alternative leisure options will most likely already be getting looked at/considered for a lot of local authorities.

Papers also like a good story, and painting the worst case scenario will “sell papers”.

The PKC Leisure review became public on Friday, and I expect that to hit the papers/media in the coming week (with the papers narrative leading the article).
 
Thanks Stevie. I understand about aged buildings and mentioned it. But I can also state that JD game in Wester Hailes charge just under £240 a year. Pure gym at the Fort charge from about £350 upwards per year and both are open longer than council facilities. East Lothian charge adults £270 a year. I have not seen all that facilities yet, only Haddington which is near empty.. which is good for me. And thay also should be a positive that membership gets you into all council gyms in your area. So is it the price? Lack of facilities? Or non advertising?
 
I have had a full membership for Edinburgh Leisure for many years as I regularly use their gyms, fitness classes and swimming pools.
Covid really hit them hard. I had no idea EL was actually a charity which depends not just on council funding but regular membership money to just keep going. There has been extensive renovation work done in a few of the venues in Edinburgh (and there are about 20 of them) so they have been investing money. One of the venues under threat is Portobello Swim Centre which is a real shame as it has been neglected financially for years, but there are good people down there and it's used well by the local community. It's a very old building though and must eat up a lot of money just for basic maintenance alone. What hasn't helped is the scottish governments decision to freeze council tax for next financial year. That's a hell of a lot of money the council now have to find. Cuts are inevitable as a result.
 
I think this is a complex scenario, with historical and political issues driving the decisions.

Probably needs a healthy dose of realism and a pragmatic solution
 
Was going tae post about this on Friday but forgot. Decided swimming would be a good way tae help me get back tae some sort of fitness, so went and joined Gracemount leisure centre on Thursday. Friday I read they might be closing it down. I was talking to 2 of my lassies pals who both work there and commented on how busy it was and they said this was it quiet. Where are all these people going tae go when all these places close?
 
Davy said:
Thanks Stevie. I understand about aged buildings and mentioned it. But I can also state that JD game in Wester Hailes charge just under £240 a year. Pure gym at the Fort charge from about £350 upwards per year and both are open longer than council facilities. East Lothian charge adults £270 a year. I have not seen all that facilities yet, only Haddington which is near empty.. which is good for me. And thay also should be a positive that membership gets you into all council gyms in your area. So is it the price? Lack of facilities? Or non advertising?
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Are they like for like comparisons between privately owned gyms and what the council are offering? Are the buildings similar, with similar running costs? Are the staff paid the living wage? Are they part of a bigger complex with other leisure offerings (that might also be losing money) such as the commy pool? Is there additional onsite management? Do they have ongoing maintenance costs? Does the membership allow access to other facilities etc. you also have to consider whether a venue offers other leisure options, such as sports halls, swimming, competitive events, classes, etc. all of which my require additional staff

Being involved with the Leisure offer in PKC has been a real eye opener regarding the financial pressures around a local authority providing a (loss making) leisure offering to the people.
 
The answer is staring us all in the face. Scotland, and the uk as a whole, is bankrupt. It has been in decline for years and the party of government in Westminster has seen the accounts which, apart from sheer greed, they decided to line theirs and their mate’s pockets with as much money as they can get away with so that they have a soft landing when everything comes crashing down around us.

That’s basically all anyone needs to know.
 
I joined Edinburgh Leisure 5 years ago and used Dalry Swim Centre so that I could exercise through swimming and the gym. Good pool but gym very small. It was ok as long as you could pick and choose when to go. As I was retired I chose my times to suit attendance levels. After covid I waited for reopening but it was stop start and very restricted. I decided to join Gym Group above Sainsburys at Murrayfield and it turned out to be one of my better decisions. They are open 24/7 and do an off peak deal. Peak times are between 16:30 and 20:30 Monday to Friday so I can go at any other time. This costs me £15:99 per month and the gym is huge with a great array of equipment. My wife has since joined and although she doesn't keep too well she goes along when she can and it is doing her a power of good. They have about 4 venues in/around Edinburgh and are UK wide. The only drawback is they don't have pools but the amount of equipment gives a great variety of exercise choice.

As has been mentioned above, the council swim centres are all in old buildings not really fit for purchase and cannot cater for the number of punters required to operate at the capacity needed to make a profit.
 
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I'm not sure it's fair to say just because it's (they're) 'council' they're badly run. There's plenty examples of private gyms going bust and closing sites around the place with little or no notice. I pass 2 or 3 abandoned gyms regularly.

For Edinburgh and maybe other councils I might suggest their unholy quest to have services in the hands of organisations that are arms length doesn't help for strategic planning or accountability among other things.

There also seems to be a huge disconnect between the Scottish Government policies trying to get everyone fit and healthy and funding it and the local authorities kicking the role they play as far into the long grass as they can manage to avoid managing.

The electorate blame Edinburgh Leisure; Edinburgh Leisure blame the council; the council blame the Scottish Government; the Scottish Government blame the UK government. The electorate stay at home and become fat and unfit as apathy rules ya bass!
 
Beagle said:
The answer is staring us all in the face. Scotland, and the uk as a whole, is bankrupt. It has been in decline for years and the party of government in Westminster has seen the accounts which, apart from sheer greed, they decided to line theirs and their mate’s pockets with as much money as they can get away with so that they have a soft landing when everything comes crashing down around us.

That’s basically all anyone needs to know.
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The UK is bust alright but the reasons are far less comfortable than blaming greedy politicians.
 
hibbybilly said:
Was going tae post about this on Friday but forgot. Decided swimming would be a good way tae help me get back tae some sort of fitness, so went and joined Gracemount leisure centre on Thursday. Friday I read they might be closing it down. I was talking to 2 of my lassies pals who both work there and commented on how busy it was and they said this was it quiet. Where are all these people going tae go when all these places close?
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I'm a regular at Gracemount and the gym has just been refurbished so I was surprised to see this was one of the venues at risk! I'd happily pay a few quid extra on my membership to keep these places open but appreciate not everyone is in that position so not sure raising prices is an option. One thing you can't quantify is the common benefit leisure centres provide, the most sympathy is for those people who's jobs are at risk though hopefully it doesn't come to what they're reporting. It's a pity there aren't any rich philanthropists in Edinburgh who could pump some money into these places, instead of pumping it into a football club in the City who actually bumped the local community, NHS etc
 
I was looking at Edinburgh councils spending report and noticed they spend more on social work than all other categories bar education (the biggest line item) combined. So way more than the total spent on housing, cultural (i guess spend on gyms etc in here), environmental and transport.

Does anyone know what social work includes ? This surely can’t just be the cost of tending to the damage from our social progress. If it is it’s a brutal demonstration of how that squeezes other services, but I can’t believe it’s that extreme.
 
egb_hibs said:
I was looking at Edinburgh councils spending report and noticed they spend more on social work than all other categories bar education (the biggest line item) combined. So way more than the total spent on housing, cultural (i guess spend on gyms etc in here), environmental and transport.

Does anyone know what social work includes ? This surely can’t just be the cost of tending to the damage from our social progress. If it is it’s a brutal demonstration of how that squeezes other services, but I can’t believe it’s that extreme.
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I would imagine the social bit will be spent on care in the community type stuff, care homes etc., the type of stuff the Scottish Government wants to be included in the National Care Service. I'm not sure about this but it is very very expensive.
 
Jack said:
For Edinburgh and maybe other councils I might suggest their unholy quest to have services in the hands of organisations that are arms length doesn't help for strategic planning or accountability among other things.
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Arms Length External Organisations can apply for charitable status, which creates benefits around taxation, funding and grant applications.
There most definitely is accountability and the council does have a say in strategic planning (based on my experience with PKC). The ALEO in PKC has 3 elected members on its board (from 3 different parties, so there isn’t a political agenda). PKC council has just completed an extensive Leisure Review, which lays out its proposals for the short term and long term, and this was presented to the board last week.
The last Scrutiny and Performance Committee meeting had the chief executive and chair of the Live Active Leisure board in front of them answering questions from elected members in the council chambers.

Of course this is all based on my knowledge of the workings of Live Active Leisure in Perth (of which I am a board member) and it may well be different in other authorities.
 
egb_hibs said:
The UK is bust alright but the reasons are far less comfortable than blaming greedy politicians.
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I’m not blaming them for that, I’m saying that they’re in a unique position where they know what’s coming long before the public does and have feathered their nests to lessen the impact on their lifestyles.
 
StevieC said:
Arms Length External Organisations can apply for charitable status, which creates benefits around taxation, funding and grant applications.
There most definitely is accountability and the council does have a say in strategic planning (based on my experience with PKC). The ALEO in PKC has 3 elected members on its board (from 3 different parties, so there isn’t a political agenda). PKC council has just completed an extensive Leisure Review, which lays out its proposals for the short term and long term, and this was presented to the board last week.
The last Scrutiny and Performance Committee meeting had the chief executive and chair of the Live Active Leisure board in front of them answering questions from elected members in the council chambers.

Of course this is all based on my knowledge of the workings of Live Active Leisure in Perth (of which I am a board member) and it may well be different in other authorities.
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To be fair I've never been a fan of ALEOs, certainly the way Edinburgh applies them. You only have to look at the trams fiasco in Edinburgh for the prime example of how it goes wrong. Nobody took responsibility for TIE, wholly owned by CEC, and TIE were responsible to no-one. Of course the Inquiry ripped the council and TIE a new one for just about everything they did and the way they went about it!

I don't think, in the main, it's people like you that are the problem, I don't think there was anything in my OP to suggest that.

I think its the mechanisms, the charitable status for example and the disconnect between policy and delivery are where the problems lie.
 
StevieC said:
Arms Length External Organisations can apply for charitable status, which creates benefits around taxation, funding and grant applications.
There most definitely is accountability and the council does have a say in strategic planning (based on my experience with PKC). The ALEO in PKC has 3 elected members on its board (from 3 different parties, so there isn’t a political agenda). PKC council has just completed an extensive Leisure Review, which lays out its proposals for the short term and long term, and this was presented to the board last week.
The last Scrutiny and Performance Committee meeting had the chief executive and chair of the Live Active Leisure board in front of them answering questions from elected members in the council chambers.

Of course this is all based on my knowledge of the workings of Live Active Leisure in Perth (of which I am a board member) and it may well be different in other authorities.
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East Ayrshire runs it main leisure centre the same way as you describe. The worst thing for the staff is not being employed by the council they are paid less.
 
Davy said:
Thanks Stevie. I understand about aged buildings and mentioned it. But I can also state that JD game in Wester Hailes charge just under £240 a year. Pure gym at the Fort charge from about £350 upwards per year and both are open longer than council facilities. East Lothian charge adults £270 a year. I have not seen all that facilities yet, only Haddington which is near empty.. which is good for me. And thay also should be a positive that membership gets you into all council gyms in your area. So is it the price? Lack of facilities? Or non advertising?
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Staffing costs at council facilities must be a hellava lot more than private sector. Always seems to be lot of staff milling around council gyms compared to the private ones.
BTW mate, meadowmill gym (just outside the pans) has a really good (albeit wee bit antiquated) gym with free weights. It's never too busy either.
 
Davy said:
Threatening to close much of their centres, swimming pools etc. Begs the question, why is the council so inept at running things? We are seeing in the wider community a large push towards fitness and private gyms opening everywhere. I was a member of Exercise4less in Wester Hailes which then became JD gyms and doubled its fee but still attracts people. I have recently moved out to East Lothian and initially joined pure gym at the fort, but quitting it in favour of East Lothian council gyms/swimming. But I have to ask a few questions. Why are private gyms winning when council gyms are threatened with closure? Is it that they use older expensive buildings in sought after areas? The council to my mind do not look after their housing very well. I was in a Prospect housing association flat for just shy of £400 a month for 2 bedroom flat which had all mod cons. To my mind the future is in rewarding the housing associations who offer best value for money.

And so to the leisure. It has been reported in the EEN that there is a black hole and one suggestion is to put fees up 8% Oh boy wow, what genius came up with that? Raise prices when the fare you offer is already inferior to the private gyms, my local gym is now in Haddington which boasts a standard size swimming pool and 2 small rooms they call gyms with to be fair some decent machines but no free weights. However if say 10 people turned up at once there could be a problem getting on the machine you want. On the plus side there is a caveat of a swimming pool, sauna and steam room. I managed to get half price being one of the over 60 brigade, but totally understand that those below 60 would find it in no way value for money.

So why raise prices? Why not cut prices, bring in more equipment and take the fight to the private gyms knowing you have that swimming pool, sauna, steam room and cafe? Why not give incentives to people to want to stay local and save on greenhouse gases? Someone more savvy than me can tell me why not?
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Is there evidence to prove the private ones are doing OK? I know my daughters local one at Granton (think it was pure gym) closed down recently.
 
egb_hibs said:
I was looking at Edinburgh councils spending report and noticed they spend more on social work than all other categories bar education (the biggest line item) combined. So way more than the total spent on housing, cultural (i guess spend on gyms etc in here), environmental and transport.

Does anyone know what social work includes ? This surely can’t just be the cost of tending to the damage from our social progress. If it is it’s a brutal demonstration of how that squeezes other services, but I can’t believe it’s that extreme.
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I would say social care would be more accurate. Most people have no idea the amount of money going into care homes and care in the community. There are some very wealthy agency owners around. Add to that the money spent on homeless to pay for hotels, b&bs, for which has made one guy who lives in Silverknowes mansion very wealthy as he owns most of the b&bs. A week in a homeless hostel is around£1000 per person. There are support workers in the community working with addicts, mentally unstable, physically impaired etc etc. How much more is spent on emergency services, cleansing, schools, roads etc etc
 
Davy said:
I would say social care would be more accurate. Most people have no idea the amount of money going into care homes and care in the community. There are some very wealthy agency owners around. Add to that the money spent on homeless to pay for hotels, b&bs, for which has made one guy who lives in Silverknowes mansion very wealthy as he owns most of the b&bs. A week in a homeless hostel is around£1000 per person. There are support workers in the community working with addicts, mentally unstable, physically impaired etc etc. How much more is spent on emergency services, cleansing, schools, roads etc etc
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Nearly 3x as much on social Work as on transport. More than on everything else put together except for education

 
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̶F̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶p̶i̶s̶s̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶o̶o̶l̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶3̶3̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶…First swim for 33 years… in bits😂
Was talking tae a staff member and she was telling me they’ve been threatening tae shut Gracemount for 27 years. She didnae seem bothered.
 
Westside Green said:
East Ayrshire runs it main leisure centre the same way as you describe. The worst thing for the staff is not being employed by the council they are paid less.
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As part of providing a balanced budget, staff wages was put in front of the board with regards as to whether wages were based on the living wage or the minimum wage. With the rest of the board fairly evenly split it came down to how the 3 elected members voted. No surprise that the Tory voted to scrap the living wage but, thankfully in my view, myself and the Labour councillor voted to ensure the living wage was maintained.

But you are correct, an ALEO could divert from council policy around wages.
 
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