Does This Make Me Racist?

Smurf

Private Member
Joined
May 15, 2003
On facebook on a thread I stated I was pro immigration in the sense immigration has been good for the UK. I said however that I'm in favour of controlled immigration.

This has led to two folk state this makes me racist. This has made me very angry because I absolutely do not perceive myself in any shape or form to be racist.

Are those in favour of immigration but in a controlled way racist?
 
On facebook on a thread I stated I was pro immigration in the sense immigration has been good for the UK. I said however that I'm in favour of controlled immigration.

This has led to two folk state this makes me racist. This has made me very angry because I absolutely do not perceive myself in any shape or form to be racist.

Are those in favour of immigration but in a controlled way racist?
Your tormentors, almost certainly comfortably off and / or dwelling in a non-vibrant setting are being kind; it makes you worse than Eichmann to be honest.
 
On facebook on a thread I stated I was pro immigration in the sense immigration has been good for the UK. I said however that I'm in favour of controlled immigration.

This has led to two folk state this makes me racist. This has made me very angry because I absolutely do not perceive myself in any shape or form to be racist.

Are those in favour of immigration but in a controlled way racist?

Controlled how?

Simple numbers? Skilled /Unskilled? Country of origin?

Populist rather than racist maybe.
 
Or rational? Normal? Not a neo liberal or greedy 1%er or henchman thereof?

What do you mean rational? normal?

Im sure smurf is not neo liberal or a 1%, so won't comment on that.

Having not seen the blue fellys facebook thread, Im trying to get some context from him, so that I can determine if the couple who have outed him as racist have a point or not. Which is his question to the cooshed.
 
I know you're not a racist Kenny.

Where do we draw the line, what's the criteria for saying yes or no?

My wife employs 10 folk, some Scottish, some Foreign. One is Romanian, lovely person but when employed totally unskilled for the job she was required to do. My wife trained her and now she's a valuable employee and good friend to my wife and sister in law. We employed her because after advertising the job we didn't get any ( not one) qualified person ( from UK or abroad) interested. She works hard, gets paid well and pays her fair share in taxes ( I know cos I do their payroll)

So, I guess that person wouldn't get entry into Scotland under 'controlled immigration'...eastern european, unskilled, not coming to a specific job...and we'd be a job down and a tax payer down.

I *think* I'm against controlling immigration.

And from my work I meet so many foreigners working/spending their wages/employing others that I hate the idea of them thinking they're not valued and welcome in Scotland.
 
actually, this is smurf we're talking about; fair point :coffee:

Ouch!

.... Its an interesting thread imo.... Quite a few years back, you posted some questionnaire from some US University and it had various peoples faces. White, black, mexican, asian etc. Quite a detailed questionnaire it was.

Turns out I had a penchant for "mistrusting" Mexicans :rollfloor (having never met one in my life :g:)
 
No, [MENTION=2693]Smurf[/MENTION], you're not.

I spent yesterday taking absolute pelters at the university from my younger colleagues, for suggesting that a) voting right wing doesn't automatically make you a heartless racist, b) that it's a bit rich for their generation to whine on social media about the result in general when 38% of them turned out, and furthermore that it's usually a useless echo chamber in terms of actual political efficacy.

Among the answers were (and I'm quoting directly from a group thread):

To point a) "Fuck women, the poor, people of colour, fuck everyone, let's all just vote right wing"; "People can be angry and vote left wing, there's nothing about anger that makes someone right wing. It's being a sexist, racist, xenophobic, classist fuck who doesn't want change"; "I'm saying, what is the right offering them other than bigotry?"; "They're voting on social issues to the end of oppressing other people." (When asked if they were really suggesting that 17 MILLION people have been haplessly "seduced" by racist rhetoric): "Does that surprise you in the slightest? Have you heard of Nazi Germany?"

This one I particularly enjoyed: "A lot of people are a) not foreigners and not living in areas where they have the opportunity to be around a lot of them, and hence much more likely to be influenced by information from the Sun and the Daily Mail and b) suffering from economic oppression that they want a solution to. And that means the likes of Nigel Farage is going to be tapping into something in them that he isn't in me. Not because I'm gifted or special or above the masses, just because I'm not vulnerable in that particular way." That one was a classic from start to finish.

To point b) "Is it rich to voice your dissatisfaction on social media? You're saying that young people are naive, apathetic, and whiney?"; "Well, as I'm sure you're well aware Ian, I think discussing politics online, including protesting decisions and policies and ideologies, is perfectly valid and actually quite important"; "Honestly, I think the biggest problem is generational - there's just a generation of people who don't want change and don't want to get with the programme. Our generation is overwhelmingly more left wing"; "I'm sure people saw civil rights advocates as naive and gay activists as naive. All we can do in those positions is roll our eyes and wait for the bigots to start dying out and being outnumbered. Which is what does, and what will happen."


At which point I started getting tired. So when asked again "Are you saying xenophobia isn't a significant factor for working class people becoming right wing?", I replied that "I'm saying I think it's being blown way out of proportion, yes. Because the left would rather characterise it as such than look at its own failings", to which the reply was (and this is another beezer) "Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but then I guess you don't experience xenophobia so that might limit your perspective somewhat". By now I'm facepalming furiously, given my interlocutor is a white English lass from Cambridge.

Also, Bernie Sanders would have won by a landslide if he'd had more of a head start.

Kenny, you and me both know you're not a racist. You just see the world in a way that admits of a) other realities than your own, b) the fallibility of your own judgment, and c) that sometimes in life you have to make decisions that you don't feel unassailably right in making.

In other words, you're not a racist - you're a grown-up.

(And simply by saying this, in today's creeping reality, I open myself up to the charge of oppressing the young.)

(I am a grumpy old fogey though.)
 
[MENTION=4819]emerald green[/MENTION] - I'm kidding as smurf knows and he is no racist

[MENTION=7996]aggie[/MENTION] - might be worth questioning these students on these lines - I expect though we can't know subject to demographic studies, that the low turnout / high remain youth vote will be centred on people like them. How do they feel about their less well off peers who lose from the globalism they win from?
 
Nazi stickers appear on La Pasionaria war memorial in Glasgow as Twitter documents growth of racist attacks in wake of Brexit result - Daily Record

This is racist.
 
No, [MENTION=2693]Smurf[/MENTION], you're not.

I spent yesterday taking absolute pelters at the university from my younger colleagues, for suggesting that a) voting right wing doesn't automatically make you a heartless racist, b) that it's a bit rich for their generation to whine on social media about the result in general when 38% of them turned out, and furthermore that it's usually a useless echo chamber in terms of actual political efficacy.

Among the answers were (and I'm quoting directly from a group thread):

To point a) "Fuck women, the poor, people of colour, fuck everyone, let's all just vote right wing"; "People can be angry and vote left wing, there's nothing about anger that makes someone right wing. It's being a sexist, racist, xenophobic, classist fuck who doesn't want change"; "I'm saying, what is the right offering them other than bigotry?"; "They're voting on social issues to the end of oppressing other people." (When asked if they were really suggesting that 17 MILLION people have been haplessly "seduced" by racist rhetoric): "Does that surprise you in the slightest? Have you heard of Nazi Germany?"

This one I particularly enjoyed: "A lot of people are a) not foreigners and not living in areas where they have the opportunity to be around a lot of them, and hence much more likely to be influenced by information from the Sun and the Daily Mail and b) suffering from economic oppression that they want a solution to. And that means the likes of Nigel Farage is going to be tapping into something in them that he isn't in me. Not because I'm gifted or special or above the masses, just because I'm not vulnerable in that particular way." That one was a classic from start to finish.

To point b) "Is it rich to voice your dissatisfaction on social media? You're saying that young people are naive, apathetic, and whiney?"; "Well, as I'm sure you're well aware Ian, I think discussing politics online, including protesting decisions and policies and ideologies, is perfectly valid and actually quite important"; "Honestly, I think the biggest problem is generational - there's just a generation of people who don't want change and don't want to get with the programme. Our generation is overwhelmingly more left wing"; "I'm sure people saw civil rights advocates as naive and gay activists as naive. All we can do in those positions is roll our eyes and wait for the bigots to start dying out and being outnumbered. Which is what does, and what will happen."


At which point I started getting tired. So when asked again "Are you saying xenophobia isn't a significant factor for working class people becoming right wing?", I replied that "I'm saying I think it's being blown way out of proportion, yes. Because the left would rather characterise it as such than look at its own failings", to which the reply was (and this is another beezer) "Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but then I guess you don't experience xenophobia so that might limit your perspective somewhat". By now I'm facepalming furiously, given my interlocutor is a white English lass from Cambridge.

Also, Bernie Sanders would have won by a landslide if he'd had more of a head start.

Kenny, you and me both know you're not a racist. You just see the world in a way that admits of a) other realities than your own, b) the fallibility of your own judgment, and c) that sometimes in life you have to make decisions that you don't feel unassailably right in making.

In other words, you're not a racist - you're a grown-up.

(And simply by saying this, in today's creeping reality, I open myself up to the charge of oppressing the young.)

(I am a grumpy old fogey though.)

That bit in bold appears to be a link to a page selling watches. I know that you wouldn't have typed it as a link so either my computer is buggered, your computer is buggered or there's a bug going round. Try it yourself on your post and see if it does that for you as well mate.

EDIT: I've gone back and tried again since responding and the link has disappeared. Am I going slightly mad?
 
On facebook on a thread I stated I was pro immigration in the sense immigration has been good for the UK. I said however that I'm in favour of controlled immigration.

This has led to two folk state this makes me racist. This has made me very angry because I absolutely do not perceive myself in any shape or form to be racist.

Are those in favour of immigration but in a controlled way racist?

I think it makes you a nationalist :giggle:

who'd have thunk :hmmm

do you think your accuser is linking race with nationality? i presume your favoured controls would not consider ethnicity or skin colour but uses the nation state (this and others) as its key reference.....?

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This one I particularly enjoyed: "A lot of people are a) not foreigners and not living in areas where they have the opportunity to be around a lot of them, and hence much more likely to be influenced by information from the Sun and the Daily Mail and b) suffering from economic oppression that they want a solution to. And that means the likes of Nigel Farage is going to be tapping into something in them that he isn't in me. Not because I'm gifted or special or above the masses, just because I'm not vulnerable in that particular way." That one was a classic from start to finish.

its a beauty but there is a point in there (somewhere) about how the economics of neoliberalism has had a disproportionately negative impact on the income and quality of life among the 'lower' social grades (C1 to E). This as much as anything is responsible for the (disproportionate?) influence the immigration question has had on the EU debate particularly among that demographic.
 
Am I going slightly mad?

Appears that way!

its a beauty but there is a point in there (somewhere) about how the economics of neoliberalism has had a disproportionately negative impact on the income and quality of life among the 'lower' social grades (C1 to E). This as much as anything is responsible for the (disproportionate?) influence the immigration question has had on the EU debate particularly among that demographic.

Indeed, but it made me laugh primarily that she saw part of the problem as being "they don't come into contact with foreigners as much as me" - which spectacularly misjudges the reality, ie that while she might think she has a more rounded view due to her regular interaction with folk from other nations at Edinburgh Uni (which of course may also be true), a lot of people aren't angry/uncomfortable/worried about immigration because they live in homogenous white towns and cities and never see "foreigners" but in fact the quite the opposite - they see a lot of them.
 
I think it makes you a nationalist :giggle:

who'd have thunk :hmmm

do you think your accuser is linking race with nationality? i presume your favoured controls would not consider ethnicity or skin colour but uses the nation state (this and others) as its key reference.....?

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its a beauty but there is a point in there (somewhere) about how the economics of neoliberalism has had a disproportionately negative impact on the income and quality of life among the 'lower' social grades (C1 to E). This as much as anything is responsible for the (disproportionate?) influence the immigration question has had on the EU debate particularly among that demographic.
agreed on the last bit: I'd ask them the question 'do you support globalisation'? Students will probably say no.

Then point out that economic globalisation is the reduction in production costs achieved by using technology to export roles to overseas labour or where that does not apply, importing overseas labour to fill onshore roles.

Do they oppose that? They'll probably say no, which means they oppose and support the same thing by different names. Some may try and separate the two portions in which case a whole host of fruitful questions spring to mind - why have they no concerns for plumbers but do for call centre staff, for example.

By this point your audience is likely to have 'triggered'
 
agreed on the last bit: I'd ask them the question 'do you support globalisation'? Students will probably say no.

Then point out that economic globalisation is the reduction in production costs achieved by using technology to export roles to overseas labour or where that does not apply, importing overseas labour to fill onshore roles.

Do they oppose that? They'll probably say no, which means they oppose and support the same thing by different names. Some may try and separate the two portions in which case a whole host of fruitful questions spring to mind - why have they no concerns for plumbers but do for call centre staff, for example.

By this point your audience is likely to have 'triggered'

Did you mean they'd probably say 'yes' to the latter question? I'm confused. They say "I don't support globalisation" but also "I don't oppose the offshoring of labour"?

As an aside, you should try searching for "The Triggering" on YouTube. It's a classic.

EDIT: I'll save you the bother: The Best of the Triggering with Trigglypuff! - YouTube

The guy's rant against social justice warriors at 5.40 is quite amusing, too.
 
Did you mean they'd probably say 'yes' to the latter question? I'm confused. They say "I don't support globalisation" but also "I don't oppose the offshoring of labour"?

As an aside, you should try searching for "The Triggering" on YouTube. It's a classic.

If you read it again - then I think they'll say no to both which is contradictory. But I expressed it in confusing terms with one question being 'Support' and the other 'oppose'. They should both be one or the other to make the yes / no contradiction more obvious.
 
If you read it again - then I think they'll say no to both which is contradictory. But I expressed it in confusing terms with one question being 'Support' and the other 'oppose'. They should both be one or the other to make the yes / no contradiction more obvious.

Yup, gotcha. I think my confusion lies in the fact that I think they'd be more likely to instinctively say they don't support offshoring of labour (with its connotations of undermining working-class jobs and overseas sweatshops) - which then opens up the line of questioning which then asks "so you don't support free movement of labour? In which case, why wouldn't you control immigration?"

I wish that had occurred to me when one of yesterday's interlocutors asserted (when asked whether supporting any kind of control on immigration was automatically racist; or whether an Australian style points system, as an example, was inherently racist) that "it either means you're a racist or it means you don't understand the effect immigration actually has on the country" and that "either you think immigrants are overwhelmingly coming over here, taking your job and going on benefits, or you just don't want foreigners around regardless". On the Australian question: "Australia is infamous for racism. I think subjecting everyone to a points based system is not only racist, but perniciously capitalist."
 
That bit in bold appears to be a link to a page selling watches. I know that you wouldn't have typed it as a link so either my computer is buggered, your computer is buggered or there's a bug going round. Try it yourself on your post and see if it does that for you as well mate.

EDIT: I've gone back and tried again since responding and the link has disappeared. Am I going slightly mad?

Going? Slightly?

Why would someone who can't tell the time , look at a page selling watches?:rascal:
 
Did you mean they'd probably say 'yes' to the latter question? I'm confused. They say "I don't support globalisation" but also "I don't oppose the offshoring of labour"?

As an aside, you should try searching for "The Triggering" on YouTube. It's a classic.

EDIT: I'll save you the bother: The Best of the Triggering with Trigglypuff! - YouTube

The guy's rant against social justice warriors at 5.40 is quite amusing, too.

To be fair Aggie "[MENTION=101]egb_hibs[/MENTION]" will be an Edinburgh University course some time in the future.

The University is trying to decide which College or School it should be located in, that's what's causing the delay ;-)
 
To be fair Aggie "[MENTION=101]egb_hibs[/MENTION]" will be an Edinburgh University course some time in the future.

The University is trying to decide which College or School it should be located in, that's what's causing the delay ;-)

I can only imagine :giggle:

"Madness and Muesli: Metropolitan Elites and the Crisis of Reason"
 
Is it only me sick of hearing..."we need to bring in skilled workers" ? I don't mind bringing some skills to UK, but I would much prefer if we set up genuine apprenticeships in this country to fill job vacancies
 
Yup, gotcha. I think my confusion lies in the fact that I think they'd be more likely to instinctively say they don't support offshoring of labour (with its connotations of undermining working-class jobs and overseas sweatshops) - which then opens up the line of questioning which then asks "so you don't support free movement of labour? In which case, why wouldn't you control immigration?"

I wish that had occurred to me when one of yesterday's interlocutors asserted (when asked whether supporting any kind of control on immigration was automatically racist; or whether an Australian style points system, as an example, was inherently racist) that "it either means you're a racist or it means you don't understand the effect immigration actually has on the country" and that "either you think immigrants are overwhelmingly coming over here, taking your job and going on benefits, or you just don't want foreigners around regardless". On the Australian question: "Australia is infamous for racism. I think subjecting everyone to a points based system is not only racist, but perniciously capitalist."
they will try and split it that way hence my follow on question about why do you care about certain British workers but not others because the form follows the type of job.

Then they'll maybe fall back on exploitation of overseas labour at which point you can say they are unequivocally and unambiguously gaining from it while western labour are losing out; so, why do you care about foreign labour gaining and the less affluent in our society losing?

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Is it only me sick of hearing..."we need to bring in skilled workers" ? I don't mind bringing some skills to UK, but I would much prefer if we set up genuine apprenticeships in this country to fill job vacancies

I understand but this is definitely a valid point; we're producing media studies graduates where others are producing doctors and engineers. We have no option here in the short term but long term education needs s total rethink - not least because we are stripping countries who desperately need their own doctors and engineers
 
Going? Slightly?

Why would someone who can't tell the time , look at a page selling watches?:rascal:

I was wondering what you meant at first but I'm on your bus now. :rascal:
 
This is the first time ye've been back on a thread where you asked if you were a rascist in the OP!

And?

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That makes him a xenophobe.Against himself.:coffee:

Not at all following your logic Mark?

So if you are Scottish wanting to be in the political union of the UK you are a xenophobe against yourself.

What then is someone Scottish wanting to be supposedly independent but remaining in another political union the EU?
 
The OP is racist. He hates Scots!!! :coffee:

That makes him a xenophobe.Against himself.:coffee:

Not at all following your logic Mark?

So if you are Scottish wanting to be in the political union of the UK you are a xenophobe against yourself.

What then is someone Scottish wanting to be supposedly independent but remaining in another political union the EU?


I thought I had artfully dismantled BOB's accusation of you being a racist by claiming something equally as stupid. It would appear my searing commentary was yet again badly judged. :roll:

I know you're not a xenophobe Kenny, cos suggesting you're xenophobic towards Scottish folk is just as dumb as claiming Scottish folk are a race.
 
I thought I had artfully dismantled BOB's accusation of you being a racist by claiming something equally as stupid. It would appear my searing commentary was yet again badly judged. :roll:

I know you're not a xenophobe Kenny, cos suggesting you're xenophobic towards Scottish folk is just as dumb as claiming Scottish folk are a race.

Apologies. Having one of they days and took it the wrong way.