Countries famous defeats ingrained into society.

Wolfetone Hibee

See Who'll Bite Radge
Joined
Apr 11, 2004
Scotland - Culloden
Serbia - the battle of Kosovo AKA field of the blackbirds
USA - Little Bighorn
France - Sedan in 1870 OR Camerone in 1863
England/Britain - Dunkirk and Isandhlwana
The Sudan - Omdurman
Australia - Gallipoli or Tobruk.
Greece - Thermoplyae
Egypt - Shaykan or battle of the pyramids


Why are so many of countries 'iconic' battles defeats, yet their greater victories seem to take a back seat to these defeats in many cases?
 
Scotland - Culloden
Serbia - the battle of Kosovo AKA field of the blackbirds
USA - Little Bighorn
France - Sedan in 1870 OR Camerone in 1863
England/Britain - Dunkirk and Isandhlwana
The Sudan - Omdurman
Australia - Gallipoli or Tobruk.
Greece - Thermoplyae


Why are so many of countries 'iconic' battles defeats, yet their greater victories seem to take a back seat to these defeats in many cases?


Argentina '78 was even more damaging to the national psyche than Culloden. PBC didnt have Jordan, Dalglish and Souness in his squad.
 
Generally speaking defeats are often horrific tragedies, with great loss of life that affect far more people, and a constant reminder why war if ever an option should only be a last resort.

Victories on the other hand, unless they are really special cases or brought into the relms of fiction, myth and legend (Rorke's Drift maybe a good example of that), are well remembered in the short term but often are not constant reminders of anything positive.
 
Generally speaking defeats are often horrific tragedies, with great loss of life that affect far more people, and a constant reminder why war if ever an option should only be a last resort.

Victories on the other hand, unless they are really special cases or brought into the relms of fiction, myth and legend (Rorke's Drift maybe a good example of that), are well remembered in the short term but often are not constant reminders of anything positive.

It flummoxes me buddy, though I get what you mean re victories; especially easy ones as there's not much to boast about, no matter how important they were. Defeats on the other hand maybe unify a national conscience in pain?

The ones i mentioned are mostly actions in which one side was virtually annihilated, killed , taken prisoner or ran away/dispersed.
 
Yeah I think grief and pain for whatever reason can be looked back on and always related to by people if there has been a similar tragedy, a personal one or even just looking at the historical incidents themselves.

Victories on the other hand in a military sense I personally find it a lot harder to relate to, if anything they bring up a slightly lesser feeling of grief and pain over those still lost, from both sides, and if I am wanting to think on those sorts of things it's a lot easier to relate to defeats or battles in which both sides annihilated each other, as opposed to the slightly confusing feeling of it being terrible, but somehow good because we "won."
 
Any visit to Cardiff must be taking on similar significance for Scotland, but seriously HH, you for one should know that Culloden wasn't a defeat for Scotland as such but more the defeat of an element of the society in a Civil War. That may well go for one or two other examples on the list as well.

Perhaps some of those defeats mentioned helped unify the country in the long term? Also, is it maybe the case that for every Dunkirk or Culloden (Flodden is maybe a better example) there is an Agincourt, D-Day or Bannockburn?
 
Scotland - Culloden
Serbia - the battle of Kosovo AKA field of the blackbirds
USA - Little Bighorn
France - Sedan in 1870 OR Camerone in 1863
England/Britain - Dunkirk and Isandhlwana
The Sudan - Omdurman
Australia - Gallipoli or Tobruk.
Greece - Thermoplyae
Egypt - Shaykan or battle of the pyramids


Why are so many of countries 'iconic' battles defeats, yet their greater victories seem to take a back seat to these defeats in many cases?


Scotland wasn't defeated at Culloden.
 
Scotland wasn't defeated at Culloden.

Well to be fair HailHail never said Scotland was, he just said Culloden was an iconic battle in Scottish history.

That said it was an army made of up people from all over Scotland, with allies from Ireland and France, fighting government employed soldiers a number of which happened to be Scottish, Cumberland certainly didn't think of himself as Scottish.

:dunno:
 
Down here Dunkirk is viewed more as a victory, the whole 'dunkirk spirit' idea has taken on a life of it's own

Yes, strange that. Often the case though that a defeat will be used for rallying purposes and the unifying spirit I alluded to in my last post. Everyone takes positives from a defeat - except George Burley apparently.

Well to be fair HailHail never said Scotland was, he just said Culloden was an iconic battle in Scottish history.

That said it was an army made of up people from all over Scotland, with allies from Ireland and France, fighting government employed soldiers a number of which happened to be Scottish, Cumberland certainly didn't think of himself as Scottish.

:dunno:

There were also some English in the Jacobite armies - picked up on the way down to Derby and back. Not sure what the difference is between some government soldiers "happening to be Scottish" rather than simply being Scottish. Is there one? Cumberland didn't think himself Scottish, no, but then again maybe neither did Bonnie Prince Charlie. I'm virtually certain that Scottish independence or preserving a Scottish/Highland identity was not top of the prince's agenda.
 
Scotland - Culloden
Serbia - the battle of Kosovo AKA field of the blackbirds
USA - Little Bighorn
France - Sedan in 1870 OR Camerone in 1863
England/Britain - Dunkirk and Isandhlwana
The Sudan - Omdurman
Australia - Gallipoli or Tobruk.
Greece - Thermoplyae
Egypt - Shaykan or battle of the pyramids


Why are so many of countries 'iconic' battles defeats, yet their greater victories seem to take a back seat to these defeats in many cases?

I would have thought that you would have had Flodden for Scotland. Culloden was only viewed as a bad un by Highlanders.

Edit : oops, jus read the other replies!:doh
 
Surely the Little Big Horn skirmish pales into insignificance alongside Saigon :102:
 
Scotland - Culloden
Serbia - the battle of Kosovo AKA field of the blackbirds
USA - Little Bighorn
France - Sedan in 1870 OR Camerone in 1863
England/Britain - Dunkirk and Isandhlwana
The Sudan - Omdurman
Australia - Gallipoli or Tobruk.
Greece - Thermoplyae
Egypt - Shaykan or battle of the pyramids


Why are so many of countries 'iconic' battles defeats, yet their greater victories seem to take a back seat to these defeats in many cases?

I'd chalk that one up to the brits actually.















Still, we'll always have Vietnam:bazooka:
 
A battle not yet mentioned and possibly the most ingrained into society is the 1916 Easter Rising involving some 18,000 combatants with 475 killed and some 2,500 wounded.
 
Well to be fair HailHail never said Scotland was, he just said Culloden was an iconic battle in Scottish history.

That said it was an army made of up people from all over Scotland, with allies from Ireland and France, fighting government employed soldiers a number of which happened to be Scottish, Cumberland certainly didn't think of himself as Scottish.

:dunno:


More Scots on the government side than with the Stuart's rebels.

I would have thought that you would have had Flodden for Scotland. Culloden was only viewed as a bad un by Highlanders.

Edit : oops, jus read the other replies!:doh
Battle of Gettysburg and a few others from the Civil War would be more ingrained in the US. Little Big Horn wasn't that important but it hit popular culture.

Battle of Mayon is an important one as it insired the creation of mayonnaise.:rollfloor

No mention of the Battle of Britain, Battle of the Somme or Agincourt.
 
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Serbia - the battle of Kosovo AKA field of the blackbirds
they just wouldna lerrit lie!

great defeats shape history as much as any victory. winners write history, losers remember it.

look at al qeada.
 
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I'm virtually certain that Scottish independence or preserving a Scottish/Highland identity was not top of the prince's agenda.

Aye I think that's a bigger issue, and certainly one I'd have more problems with...the Royalist troops being paid up soldiers was kinda an issue for me because government soldiers tend to just fight whoever they are pointed at regardless of what nation they are from.

Main thing though any great defeat generally has comparativly large losses of life and are easier to relate to with sadness. Even if you just think "good on the Royalists for gubbing those pesky rebels" war and death is never a good thing.
 
Scotland wasn't defeated at Culloden.

I see your point buddy but an independent Scotland within the UK was defeated that day in favour of the one-state britania incorporated. One Scotland died until 1999.:thumbgrin

Any visit to Cardiff must be taking on similar significance for Scotland, but seriously HH, you for one should know that Culloden wasn't a defeat for Scotland as such but more the defeat of an element of the society in a Civil War. That may well go for one or two other examples on the list as well.

Perhaps some of those defeats mentioned helped unify the country in the long term? Also, is it maybe the case that for every Dunkirk or Culloden (Flodden is maybe a better example) there is an Agincourt, D-Day or Bannockburn?

Agincourt is like a stand out - a rare victory in a war that England lost.

A battle not yet mentioned and possibly the most ingrained into society is the 1916 Easter Rising involving some 18,000 combatants with 475 killed and some 2,500 wounded.

Left that one out dude I'm away to work later didn't want to come back to an 18 pager :laff::thumbgrin
 
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Down here Dunkirk is viewed more as a victory, the whole 'dunkirk spirit' idea has taken on a life of it's own

It was lucky that they escaped France's fall without encountering any serious fighting, if anything i suppose it's a French defeat.

I would have thought that you would have had Flodden for Scotland. Culloden was only viewed as a bad un by Highlanders.

Edit : oops, jus read the other replies!:doh


Flodden perhaps should be more famous but the consequences really weren't that bad other than the king's death, compared to the aftermath of some of the other ones. Maybe it's 'cos we were invading them?
 
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Surely the Little Big Horn skirmish pales into insignificance alongside Saigon :102:

You'd think it would man but LBH is THE iconic fight, even if it was just like a handful of coppers trying to take on the east stand then wondering how they got such a kicking:giggle:

Two of the leading experts on it are equally unsure as to why it's so iconic, has so many films about it etc. But it is.

Seems it's as much to do with the personalities of opposing commanders as it is with the scale of the action.
 
Surely the 1314 Bannockburn battle is more ingrained than the 1746 Culloden one???

:dunno:

You would think so Stevie, I reckon it's 'number two' though equally as important as 1746, in fact one heralded nearly 400 years of independence while the other confirmed around 300 years of union, yet 1746 seems to have more books and more films/tv etc.

A decent Bruce movie would be immense!

they just wouldna lerrit lie!

great defeats shape history as much as any victory. winners write history, losers remember it.

look at al qeada.

There's a 'field of the blackbirds' in the 20th century too eh? just before ww1 or during it?
 
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Stalingrad - Germany. Possibly the most epic defeat ever and has basically been enough to rid Germany of any militarism in its public sphere.
 
Already mentioned, but The Somme? Coloured British
tactical thinking in WW2, with the result that British commanders were often
regarded as too cautious by their US counterparts. Aslso became the symbolic of
the War to End Wars and initiated a change in attitudes to the old class system.
Dunkirk is an interesting example of spin changing defeat into almost
victory.


For
France add Dien Bien Phu as well? For USA, Pearl harbour, still
paranoid but the sneak attack. Re Little Big Horn, is it remembered
because up until then Custer had been one of the golden boys of the US
military. Made his name in the Civil War and defeat was unthinkable.

As to why defeats carry more emotional baggage, is it simply due to the basic desire for revenge. Victory means you already got one over on the other guy, but defeat sticks in the throat and festers. Hitler played to that successfully by harking back to versailes
 
Already mentioned, but The Somme? Coloured British
tactical thinking in WW2, with the result that British commanders were often
regarded as too cautious by their US counterparts. Aslso became the symbolic of
the War to End Wars and initiated a change in attitudes to the old class system.
Dunkirk is an interesting example of spin changing defeat into almost
victory.


For
France add Dien Bien Phu as well? For USA, Pearl harbour, still
paranoid but the sneak attack. Re Little Big Horn, is it remembered
because up until then Custer had been one of the golden boys of the US
military. Made his name in the Civil War and defeat was unthinkable.

As to why defeats carry more emotional baggage, is it simply due to the basic desire for revenge. Victory means you already got one over on the other guy, but defeat sticks in the throat and festers. Hitler played to that successfully by harking back to versailes


Would you not say that attitudes to the class sytem changed more following WW2 than WW1?
 
Would you not say that attitudes to the class sytem changed more following WW2 than WW1?

I think the process began after WW1. Post 1918, the Labour movement became more organised and while to an extent that was inspired by the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, that in itself was a result of the Great War. There was no longer the blind faith, if you like, in the country's leadership which saw mass volunteering in 1914-15.

Another legacy of the Somme may be the partition of Ireland, as the UVF which effectively became the Ulster Division, attained legendary status amongst Loyalists after the Somme and became an emotive factor in NI remaining part of the Union. I'm sure others can comment better on this, but it was something I picked up on from Andrew Marrs series the other week.
 
Stalingrad - Germany. Possibly the most epic defeat ever and has basically been enough to rid Germany of any militarism in its public sphere.
A good shout dude, I'd forgotten them. Strangely though the germans' ' celebrated victory' seems to be the crushing of the Romans at Tuteberg in 9AD.

Anyone know what Spain's are? :detective: I dinny........
 
Already mentioned, but The Somme? Coloured British
tactical thinking in WW2, with the result that British commanders were often
regarded as too cautious by their US counterparts. Aslso became the symbolic of
the War to End Wars and initiated a change in attitudes to the old class system.
Dunkirk is an interesting example of spin changing defeat into almost
victory.


For
France add Dien Bien Phu as well? For USA, Pearl harbour, still
paranoid but the sneak attack. Re Little Big Horn, is it remembered
because up until then Custer had been one of the golden boys of the US
military. Made his name in the Civil War and defeat was unthinkable.

As to why defeats carry more emotional baggage, is it simply due to the basic desire for revenge. Victory means you already got one over on the other guy, but defeat sticks in the throat and festers. Hitler played to that successfully by harking back to versailes

I was wondering where you were :thumbgrin

The Somme's a biggie alright but I can't seem to find as much enthusiasm for it as a British/English victory as it was so costly even though they won, kinda.
Dien bien phu certainly seems to have sickened the french against further colonial wars though i'm unsure how 'big' it is in the French mindset, Camerone is THE legion battle but its easy to see why- fifty odd legionaires with muskets holding off 3000 mexican regulars all day is far easier to get 'dewy eyed' about than a modern army being surrounded and made an absolute arse of :laff:

You're right re LBH, a tiny action in comparison to the bloodbaths of the civil war a decade earlier yet the personalities and the myth of the tiny group of surrounded soldiers fighting to the end would easilly inspire a nation.(if they were all true) Custer the presidential candidate, darling boy general and his 'elite' force coming up against vast numbers of wild savages on the frontier, it's easier for a nation to take/relate to than say, 7 or 8 thousand dead americans after fighting each other at Antietam.:detective:
perhaps this is why the covenanter wars here barely get a mention, no 'bogey man' england to blame, at least not directly.
 
A good shout dude, I'd forgotten them. Strangely though the germans' ' celebrated victory' seems to be the crushing of the Romans at Tuteberg in 9AD.

Anyone know what Spain's are? :detective: I dinny........

This one any good to you I. I dont know anything other than what I have read below but it sure seems as though Spain managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I chose it though mainly due to the last paragraph

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROCROI, 1643

The Duc d'Enghien, later to become famous as the Prince de Conde, was only 21 when he took command at Rocroi. The leadership of 23,000 men had been given to him primarily because he was the king's cousin; D'Enghien had never before commanded troops. His opponent, Don Francisco de Melo, led six Spanish infantry regiments, supported by seasoned Italian, Flemish, and Dutch mercenaries, an army totaling 20,000 men.

On May 12, Melo, joined by the Flemish Comte d'Isembourg, appeared on the plateau outside the fortress walls of Rocroi and laid siege to the town. Coming to its relief, D'Enghien elected to take the offensive, although the decision meant he would be bringing his men into a potential trap. The plateau, some 4 mi. wide, was bordered by impenetrable thickets, marshy ground, and a lake, and it had very few paths through which a retreat might be made if the Spanish were to gain the advantage. Nevertheless, the duke could not wait, for a French deserter had brought news of the impending arrival of strong Spanish forces led by the German commander Beck.

The duke attacked at 3:00 A.M. on May 18. As the battle began, the French columns, commanded by the foolhardy La Ferte, were recklessly sent forward into a vulnerable position. La Ferte and his men were cut off by D'Isembourg's cavalry and killed or captured. With him, the Spanish acquired 30 artillery pieces, which they set up to fire on the French center. Taking a calculated risk, D'Enghien, with 2,000 of his cavalry following, skirted the Spanish left flank completely, wheeled left, and charged behind the entire Spanish army to attack their right flank from the rear. His unexpected appearance from behind routed the Spanish foot soldiers. The duke then continued back to his own lines, his men and horses exhausted from the extended charge.

Realizing that Beck's arrival was imminent, D'Enghien ignored the general fatigue. His next two attacks failed, as his crippled opponent, Fontaine, commanding from a chair, raised his cane to signal Spanish volleys that decimated the onrushing horsemen. In the third, however, D'Enghien succeeded, as the Spanish artillery, out of cannonballs, fell silent. Melo promptly surrendered to avoid the massacre of his infantry.

The battle, won by D'Enghien's unconventional generalship, struck a heavy blow against Spain, even greater than the Armada defeat inflicted by England. It also signaled the rise of French military might.
 
This one any good to you I. I dont know anything other than what I have read below but it sure seems as though Spain managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. I chose it though mainly due to the last paragraph

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ROCROI, 1643

The Duc d'Enghien, later to become famous as the Prince de Conde, was only 21 when he took command at Rocroi. The leadership of 23,000 men had been given to him primarily because he was the king's cousin; D'Enghien had never before commanded troops. His opponent, Don Francisco de Melo, led six Spanish infantry regiments, supported by seasoned Italian, Flemish, and Dutch mercenaries, an army totaling 20,000 men.

On May 12, Melo, joined by the Flemish Comte d'Isembourg, appeared on the plateau outside the fortress walls of Rocroi and laid siege to the town. Coming to its relief, D'Enghien elected to take the offensive, although the decision meant he would be bringing his men into a potential trap. The plateau, some 4 mi. wide, was bordered by impenetrable thickets, marshy ground, and a lake, and it had very few paths through which a retreat might be made if the Spanish were to gain the advantage. Nevertheless, the duke could not wait, for a French deserter had brought news of the impending arrival of strong Spanish forces led by the German commander Beck.

The duke attacked at 3:00 A.M. on May 18. As the battle began, the French columns, commanded by the foolhardy La Ferte, were recklessly sent forward into a vulnerable position. La Ferte and his men were cut off by D'Isembourg's cavalry and killed or captured. With him, the Spanish acquired 30 artillery pieces, which they set up to fire on the French center. Taking a calculated risk, D'Enghien, with 2,000 of his cavalry following, skirted the Spanish left flank completely, wheeled left, and charged behind the entire Spanish army to attack their right flank from the rear. His unexpected appearance from behind routed the Spanish foot soldiers. The duke then continued back to his own lines, his men and horses exhausted from the extended charge.

Realizing that Beck's arrival was imminent, D'Enghien ignored the general fatigue. His next two attacks failed, as his crippled opponent, Fontaine, commanding from a chair, raised his cane to signal Spanish volleys that decimated the onrushing horsemen. In the third, however, D'Enghien succeeded, as the Spanish artillery, out of cannonballs, fell silent. Melo promptly surrendered to avoid the massacre of his infantry.

The battle, won by D'Enghien's unconventional generalship, struck a heavy blow against Spain, even greater than the Armada defeat inflicted by England. It also signaled the rise of French military might.

Ah, cheers I :thumbgrin i think that war might be the one featured in that old dubbed history drama ' the flashing blade' :cool might no be though..

I always wondered when Spain's decline began militarily.

The only other big spanish defeats I can think of are against the moors and those must be well remembered as they are still re-enacted.
 
Ah, cheers I :thumbgrin i think that war might be the one featured in that old dubbed history drama ' the flashing blade' :cool might no be though..

I always wondered when Spain's decline began militarily.

The only other big spanish defeats I can think of are against the moors and those must be well remembered as they are still re-enacted.

it doesnt seem so bonny lad. I had a wee google at it and ascertained that the flashing blade was set in 17th century France, during the War of the Mantuan Succession (1628-1631) which rules out Rocroi.

Of course Wiki is notoriously pish so it could be entirely incorrect.
 
it doesnt seem so bonny lad. I had a wee google at it and ascertained that the flashing blade was set in 17th century France, during the War of the Mantuan Succession (1628-1631) which rules out Rocroi.

Of course Wiki is notoriously pish so it could be entirely incorrect.

Wiki will be right mate I wasn't sure. It's interesting that these great defeats/great battles of each country/people are almost always a watershed too. Things are never the same afterwards for the protagonists, well, in most cases.

It seems every country has A definitive/iconic defeat and a similarly revered victory, have we got enough history fans to compile a list or would that be too geeky?:popcorn3:
 
Lack of participation due to not able to post replies with pc. Have to work with phone which is a pain :)

Spanish victories, they do make a big deal over the guy who forced the moors out of Spain. Can't recall his name just now. Other than that I assume that they would count the likes of talavera, Salamanca etc where they kicked the French out( with not inconsiderable assistance of course).

Back to your original point, certainly the British do have a habit of celebrating glorious failure then having to go back and do it the hard way, thinking retreat from Corunna, retreat from
Mons, Dunkirk etc. Even where we won balaclava, the thing most people know if anything about it is the charge of the light brigade, one of the biggest military cock ups ever. Melodramatic art and poetry does have a lot to answer for!
 
Lack of participation due to not able to post replies with pc. Have to work with phone which is a pain :)

Spanish victories, they do make a big deal over the guy who forced the moors out of Spain. Can't recall his name just now. Other than that I assume that they would count the likes of talavera, Salamanca etc where they kicked the French out( with not inconsiderable assistance of course).

Back to your original point, certainly the British do have a habit of celebrating glorious failure then having to go back and do it the hard way, thinking retreat from Corunna, retreat from
Mons, Dunkirk etc. Even where we won balaclava, the thing most people know if anything about it is the charge of the light brigade, one of the biggest military cock ups ever. Melodramatic art and poetry does have a lot to answer for!

Leaving aside Spain's civil war, I must admit i know very little about the Spanish battles other than the ones you mentioned when Britain did most of the work, the one-sided massacres in the americas , defeat by America in Cuba/Philippines circa 1900? Nothing LBH or Somme esque.

With British it seems to be one extreme to the other like with the zulus, humiliation at Isandhlwana and the gross exaggeration of O'Rourke's Drift are known to most , yet the big, decisive one at Ulundi 6 months later when they met and defeated the Zulu army ending the war seems a mere footnote.The reason? It went according to plan, and to a certain extent there's nothing glamourous in using gattlings, rifles and cavalry to defeat zulus armed with spears and the occasional gun.
 
Leaving aside Spain's civil war, I must admit i know very little about the Spanish battles other than the ones you mentioned when Britain did most of the work, the one-sided massacres in the americas , defeat by America in Cuba/Philippines circa 1900? Nothing LBH or Somme esque.

With British it seems to be one extreme to the other like with the zulus, humiliation at Isandhlwana and the gross exaggeration of O'Rourke's Drift are known to most , yet the big, decisive one at Ulundi 6 months later when they met and defeated the Zulu army ending the war seems a mere footnote.The reason? It went according to plan, and to a certain extent there's nothing glamourous in using gattlings, rifles and cavalry to defeat zulus armed with spears and the occasional gun.

Which preumably only fired sporadically:giggle:
 
I think the process began after WW1. Post 1918, the Labour movement became more organised and while to an extent that was inspired by the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917, that in itself was a result of the Great War. There was no longer the blind faith, if you like, in the country's leadership which saw mass volunteering in 1914-15.

Another legacy of the Somme may be the partition of Ireland, as the UVF which effectively became the Ulster Division, attained legendary status amongst Loyalists after the Somme and became an emotive factor in NI remaining part of the Union. I'm sure others can comment better on this, but it was something I picked up on from Andrew Marrs series the other week.


The upper classes distinguished themselves in the trenches by leading from the front - which is why a disproportionate number of public school entisted blokes were mown down as they "did their duty for King and Country"..