Constitutional crisis

egb_hibs

Private Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Yet another election thread but a topic of it's own this one.

Looking at some of the mountains of stats it seems to me that there are all kinds of scenarios that could unleash merry hell!

It looks very difficult to my naive eyes for the tories to form a majority coalition, despite some reports suggesting they'll retain power. This would potentially lead to a coalition of labour and others taking power with the tories as the largest party. I'm not sure what heat that would generate.

But it could only increase if, say, UKIP aligned with the tories. Despite a nominal amount of UKIP seats, maybe even none, this combination might command an absolute majority of votes casts, even before overtures to the LDs and Ulster parties. That would surely create some kind of bust up and really call FPP into question.

Meanwhile Labour would of course be open to the charges already being laid of being manipulated by the SNP and even by extreme parties ike the greens.


Quite probably things will muddle through, but the next term looks like it could have major ramifications as well as being a war of attrition for a government with a tenuous mandate.

UKIP believe that labour could be destroyed in the north of england as well as Scotland during this government, leaving them as a party of the southern establishment and various cultivated client groups. This could well happen if they govern as part of some looney left aggregation which bursts the country again while chasing political correct fancies.

As for the lib dems the opportunity is ripe for them to really finish themselves off, either by aligning with an unpopular choice or by mercenary bed-hopping.

The tories will be ever more entrenched as an english party and possibly begin to come apart internally as their own prostration before a BBC ordained worldview is threatened by a UKIP rise as much as Labour are, while they may split over the union as they have so damagingly done over europe.

UKIP might explode into a million little pieces if they fail to land Farage a seat.

FPP might be rendered untenable which would change the political landscape completely and possibly signal the end of the liberal elite hegemony as we know it, or might just beget endless chaos or stultifying inaction as mixed up parliaments nullify themselves.

It's hard to see how the SNP can fail to profit massively - no matter what the other guys do and SNPs role in it, they'll be able to blame an imploding union, and it will be accepted without overdue scrutiny.

Where's it all going- what do you think; who might form a government and what might the fallout be?
 
I have no idea what the outcome is gonna be, and that in itself is the best thing about it for me. I have been waiting for this kind of "shit-hitting-the-fan" clusterfuck for a very long time.

So many in the previous hegemony are going to be facing stark exposures of their own hypocrisy, to which they will only be able to point the fingers at themselves.

Tories - "hoist by their own petard", as it were. Bullied the weak LibDems into accepting a referendum on AV rather than PR. Now hamstrung by FPTP. Can they seriously now argue for PR? Are people's memories that short? (Don't answer that.)

Labour - the fallacy of being a party of "the ordinary man" finally exposed, as annihilation in Scotland and the rise of UKIP is proving. Any chance of commanding a parliamentary majority will also depend on them recanting their position on the SNP (which I will find particularly delicious).

LibDems - as you say, it's either irrelevance or basically becoming the CapriciousDems - like the girl at school who always goes out with the hardest guy.

Whatever happens, looking forward to the wailing and gnashing of teeth in the press, too. There's gonna be some hilarious frothing and seething to enjoy.

Bring it on.
 
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The only way the tories or labour could get a bill through is with snp support. (or obviously the support of each other)

Sounds good to me.

Oh, wait. Any concessions that have to be made to the SNP to get a bill through will be sent back by the House of Lords because, well for one, there are no SNP members of the House of Lords.

Oh dear.

Meanwhile, 50% of England has voted UKIP/Tory - huge numbers - and there is next to zero chance they will be able to pass a single law between them. The democratic deficit, ooh the irony. I think that particular conundrum is storing up big trouble - especially if there is another election in the near future, which I suspect is something the SNP will be keen to avoid.

The SNP though, this is a stars aligning moment, because for the majority of elections in the last 50 years (if not all), having 50 MPs would have had diddly squat effect on what was going on. Anyone would think Salmond had manipulated the situation to make it happen this way.
 
Where's it all going- what do you think; who might form a government and what might the fallout be?

I really don't know. I don't think labour or the tories will want to attempt a government when the SNP will effectively wield control.

What do you think?
 
I really don't know. I don't think labour or the tories will want to attempt a government when the SNP will effectively wield control.

What do you think?
I haven't a clue B. I don't understand the constitutional considerations well enough. The likeliest route to securing a majority of seats looks to me to be a labour centred coalition. I think the largest party will be the Tories and and aligned Tories and UKIP would have a moral argument based on vote share but no ability to act upon it. I don't know what takes precedence.
 
I predict that in the UK the Tories will get the most seats and most votes yet It will be a Labour led Ed Miliband government....

Imagine the Daily Mail front pages...
 
I predict that in the UK the Tories will get the most seats and most votes yet It will be a Labour led Ed Miliband government....

Imagine the Daily Mail front pages...

It creates a problem for Labour though, doesn't it? He'll be portrayed as the guy who not only stabbed his brother in the back, but also the guy who snuck into #10 with no mandate.They can't afford another GE campaign and if this scenario happens they'll be obliterated in five years time.

His only hope is to get into power and radically change the voting system to PR, but now The SNP might be disinclined to agree to that becuase it would severely dilute their own seat gains!
 
It creates a problem for Labour though, doesn't it? He'll be portrayed as the guy who not only stabbed his brother in the back, but also the guy who snuck into #10 with no mandate.They can't afford another GE campaign and if this scenario happens they'll be obliterated in five years time.

His only hope is to get into power and radically change the voting system to PR, but now The SNP might be disinclined to agree to that becuase it would severely dilute their own seat gains!

Indeed. If Labour win then in 2020 they could be annihilated for a generation, perhaps worse.

They have alienated key voting blocks already - how I remember the sneers of some old posters who were staunch labour, that they were pissing on the chips of the catholics, non public sector workers, jews etc and would come to rue it. Well, referendum related data suggests that they've lost the first, I think they've lost the a lot of the second, and they're losing the last and with it the disproportionate contribution that community made towards funding the party.

By 2020 they may lose their Northern English tribes, while being largely a memory in Scotland. Their looming problem has always been the fact that the guardian liberal tribe they now represent is actually very small and confined to certain salubrious locations - they control the BBC and therefore sound very very loud, but they are actually few in number. Labour can't survive on this core plus creating dependent people and thus captive votes. They got away with it while there was no alternative, but now there is the SNP and UKIP and the party may be nearly over. On top of all that they risk getting on the wrong a rising sense of english identity, like everything else a self inflicted wound as their cynical historical exploitation of scotland, their disastrous adherence to the pathologies of multi culturalism, and their increasing disdain for english identity, come back to bite them.

It can only be good for the UK or it's constituent parts if this happens as their impact is almost completely destructive.
 
It creates a problem for Labour though, doesn't it? He'll be portrayed as the guy who not only stabbed his brother in the back, but also the guy who snuck into #10 with no mandate.They can't afford another GE campaign and if this scenario happens they'll be obliterated in five years time.

His only hope is to get into power and radically change the voting system to PR, but now The SNP might be disinclined to agree to that becuase it would severely dilute their own seat gains!

It would create big problems for Labour. I think that there would be internal pressure within Labour for Ed Miliband to not take up the position on that basis. However, he is the leader and this is his once in a lifetime opportunity to be PM... I'm pretty sure as he demonstrated with his big brother he can be pretty determined and ruthless...

I've genuinely grown to like him and I'd like to think that he'd seize the moment and go for genuinely radical progressive measures that would see him as PM with support from all progressives in the House of Commons.
 
It would create big problems for Labour. I think that there would be internal pressure within Labour for Ed Miliband to not take up the position on that basis. However, he is the leader and this is his once in a lifetime opportunity to be PM... I'm pretty sure as he demonstrated with his big brother he can be pretty determined and ruthless...

I've genuinely grown to like him and I'd like to think that he'd seize the moment and go for genuinely radical progressive measures that would see him as PM with support from all progressives in the House of Commons.

He's already said he doesn't want anything to do with the largest bloc of progressives being sent to WM.
 
He's already said he doesn't want anything to do with the largest bloc of progressives being sent to WM.

Nicola Sturgeon is correct. Let's see what he does after the election... If he was clever he could put budgets and legislation others would want to vote for without deals etc...
 
Nicola Sturgeon is correct. Let's see what he does after the election... If he was clever he could put budgets and legislation others would want to vote for without deals etc...

So to clarify, this is the guy who done his brother over, sneaks into Downing Street and then does deals with Sturgeon when he's done nothing but say the opposite for the last fortnight?

And you've grown to like him? :shock:
 
So to clarify, this is the guy who done his brother over, sneaks into Downing Street and then does deals with Sturgeon when he's done nothing but say the opposite for the last fortnight?

And you've grown to like him? :shock:

I don't buy this "done over his brother" bollocks. He was fully entitled to stand. And I don't see how in our current stupid voting system it would be sneaking into Downing Street. What UK PM becomes so with a 'majority'? And on Sturgeon he has said exactly what he has to say otherwise ignoramus England would go into meltdown.
 
I'm not so sure he has. I honestly can't see there being any formal arrangement. Do you?

They've also ruled out informal agreements:

In some of his clearest remarks on the issue, Miliband specifically rejected a confidence and supply deal in which the SNP would support him on any confidence votes and in budget (supply) votes. Asked by Marr whether he would agree to such an arrangement, Miliband said: No.

:fyi:
 
They've also ruled out informal agreements:

In some of his clearest remarks on the issue, Miliband specifically rejected a confidence and supply deal in which the SNP would support him on any confidence votes and in budget (supply) votes. Asked by Marr whether he would agree to such an arrangement, Miliband said: No.

:fyi:

Did you watch the interview?
 
I don't buy this "done over his brother" bollocks. He was fully entitled to stand. And I don't see how in our current stupid voting system it would be sneaking into Downing Street. What UK PM becomes so with a 'majority'? And on Sturgeon he has said exactly what he has to say otherwise ignoramus England would go into meltdown.

I think he 'done his brother over' by getting the unions to side with him, then announced he was changing the way Labour elects it's leaders.Maybe more 'done over the unions' to get one over his brother?

And this thread is based on the pretext that Torys/ukip get 50%+ but are kept out by Ed with about 33%

And he's pretty much lying about dealing with the SNP then?

Either way, I reckon him and Labour are toast in the next 10 years.
 
I'm not so sure how it reads is exactly how it came across...

Are you trying to keep me in suspense?

When Asked by Marr whether he would agree to such an arrangement, did Miliband say: No? Or something else? I'm genuinely curious to know if he's been misrepresented here, or if he's actually said "okay, I might do an informal deal". Though I'd be surprised, given it was in The Guardian.
 
I think he 'done his brother over' by getting the unions to side with him, then announced he was changing the way Labour elects it's leaders.Maybe more 'done over the unions' to get one over his brother?

And this thread is based on the pretext that Torys/ukip get 50%+ but are kept out by Ed with about 33%

And he's pretty much lying about dealing with the SNP then?

Either way, I reckon him and Labour are toast in the next 10 years.

I would have preferred Labour to vote for his brother at the time. Hindsight though is a wonderful thing and I do think he's genuinely offering something different in this election. He could well fuck the UK but he could also be for Labour what Thatcher was for the Tories.

He was elected on what the rules were at the time? The unions were determined to stop the Blairite David get the gig. I'm not that aware of the changes that have since been made to leadership elections so can't comment.

If the Tories and UKIP get around 50% then I'm worried but I'd expect it to be around 43%.

- - - Updated - - -

Are you trying to keep me in suspense?

When Asked by Marr whether he would agree to such an arrangement, did Miliband say: No? Or something else? I'm genuinely curious to know if he's been misrepresented here, or if he's actually said "okay, I might do an informal deal". Though I'd be surprised, given it was in The Guardian.

It was one of those being asked quick fire questions in response to answers that I'm not so sure he knew or understood what he was answering... That's not me justifying it but I'm not so sure having watched it he meant what he said and said what he meant....

Watch it!
 
Could be right. UKIP are struggling in freefall... My fear is UKIP votes going directly to the Tories last min could still give them an overall majority.

not looking at any poll of % of vote they're not.Pretty consistent at 13/14 %
 
Say Tories ukip poll 49% but snp block anything they try to do. Labour minority govt collapses within a year Scotland votes snp en masse again but this time England lurches further to the right with ukip Tory alliance formal or otherwise and they take 60% of the vote wiping out the lib dems and routing labour in the process on way to a huge majority.

Yet another democratic deficit in Scotland. For sure that's a lot of stars to align but it makes you think


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Say Tories ukip poll 49% but snp block anything they try to do. Labour minority govt collapses within a year Scotland votes snp en masse again but this time England lurches further to the right with ukip Tory alliance formal or otherwise and they take 60% of the vote wiping out the lib dems and routing labour in the process on way to a huge majority.

Yet another democratic deficit in Scotland. For sure that's a lot of stars to align but it makes you think


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How can the SNP block anything they do?
 
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Of course they can't on their own - but put another way, on today's projection a minority con government would require snp or labour support or abstentions to pass legislation. I don't think the snp would do that on every issue - but it's a cast iron certainty they will on the red line issues.


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