Choose Austerity, nice one Mr Welsh!

[Brainwrong]

Irvine Welsh Slams George Osborne Over 'Trainspotting' Party Conference Speech

After announcing even more welfare cuts on Monday, George Osborne attempted to lighten the mood and quote 'Trainspotting', a film based on a group of jobless down-and-outs addicted to heroin.
"Choose jobs. Choose enterprise. Choose security. Choose prosperity, investment, fairness, freedom. Choose David Cameron, choose the Conservatives, choose the future!"
Inspiring stuff from the Chancellor that got a a room full of Tory devotees clapping their hands in austerity-ridden glee.
Which was quite the opposite response from 'Trainspotting' author, Irvine Welsh...


Irvine Welsh ✔ @IrvineWelsh
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Would rather have Fred and Rose West quote my characters on child care than that **** Osbourne quote them on choice.


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http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/george-osborne-oscar-rickett-irvine-welsh-710?utm_source=vicetwitteruk

 

[egb_hibs]

The British welfare state thanks you for your tax contribution Irv.

Oh wait...

("Anybody would agree with a scheme where they don't have to pay tax," Welsh told the Guardian) ...so very typically of the left arts millionaires

 

[Brainwrong]

The British welfare state thanks you for your tax contribution Irv.

Oh wait...

("Anybody would agree with a scheme where they don't have to pay tax," Welsh told the Guardian) ...so very typically of the left arts millionaires

I can play the selective quoting game too, man.

"I didn`t move here for tax reasons, but obviously as a writer I would take advantage of it. I know the scheme is there to keep big entertainers like U2 based in the country instead of losing them to LA."

 

[egb_hibs]

That's fine K, but it doesn't alter things one iota does it? He was avoiding supporting the Irish welfare state also.

Plus he says 'anybody would agree with a scheme where they don't have to pay tax'

That's a statement in and of itself regardless of how that scheme became available to him.

Let's face it, Tories are despicable for easing the tax burden on someone earning 45k while shouldering a massive mortgage and raising kids, while it's ok for arts millionaires to avoid tax completely - cos anyone would agree with that.

Typical elitism sadly.

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I should clarify that I don't criticise him or taking advantage of it, simply take issue with the double standard

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It goes to the heart of the matter cos the government doesn't fund or not fund the nhs et al;

You do, I do, Irv does, or it's passed to our children via government debt.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

The British welfare state thanks you for your tax contribution Irv.

Oh wait...

("Anybody would agree with a scheme where they don't have to pay tax," Welsh told the Guardian) ...so very typically of the left arts millionaires

How exactly do you know how much tax IW does or dosent pay?

 

[egb_hibs]

How exactly do you know how much tax IW does or dosent pay?

I don't know how exactly much be pays - what's that to do with i? I've pointed
out the incongruity of saying that anyone would avoid tax of it was an available option whilst complaining austerity.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

I don't know how exactly much be pays - what's that to do with i? I've pointed
out the incongruity of saying that anyone would avoid tax of it was an available option whilst complaining austerity.

My apologies. I misread your post. :doh

 

[egb_hibs]

My apologies. I misread your post. :doh

No problem - thanks for being a gent and explaining that

 

[Lexo]

The British welfare state thanks you for your tax contribution Irv.

Oh wait...

("Anybody would agree with a scheme where they don't have to pay tax," Welsh told the Guardian) ...so very typically of the left arts millionaires

So he shouldn't comment on some wanker using his words at a Tory conference? Fuck sake you aren't half scraping the barrel there EGB.

 

[egb_hibs]

So he shouldn't comment on some $#@! using his words at a Tory conference? $#@! sake you aren't half scraping the barrel there EGB.

How am I scraping the barrel?

Why is he criticising the tories - presumably for their policies, relating to tax and spend. Which is entirely cast in its proper light when contrasted to personal choices.

Sorry Lexo, this kind of thing is fundamental to the issues at stake; people demand endless expenditure from the state, but aren't so keen to contribute. You simply can't have it both ways.

I like IW as much as the next man, but if a banker was exploiting loop holes to escape paying tax, i suspect he'd get short shrift if he pontificated on state spending. It is no different here.

How is IWs attitude in his own case different from the perceived worst examples of tory taxation favouring the wealthy?

 

[Lexo]

How am I scraping the barrel?

Why is he criticising the tories - presumably for their policies, relating to tax and spend. Which is entirely cast in its proper light when contrasted to personal choices.

Sorry Lexo, this kind of thing is fundamental to the issues at stake; people demand endless expenditure from the state, but aren't so keen to contribute. You simply can't have it both ways.

I like IW as much as the next man, but if a banker was exploiting loop holes to escape paying tax, i suspect he'd get short shrift if he pontificated on state spending. It is no different here.

How is IWs attitude in his own case different from the perceived worst examples of tory taxation favouring the wealthy?

He spends most of his time abroad, so he isn't getting it both ways. I dare say he has contributed a fair amount in tax money over the years. Comparing him to Tory taxation favouring the wealthy as well. Come on. Really? Do the foreigners living and working here pay tax in their country of origin? I doubt it.

All this from him having a pop at that prick Osborne using his words. I normally don't mind your posts but you are on a lets see who can piss the highest sometimes. I reckon you are at it........

 

[egb_hibs]

You can disagree but I assure you I'm not at it. This goes to the centre of all I deplore. We demand endless state expenditure while ,disconnecting that from our role in paying for it. We despise those who try and square the circle and bridge the gap between what we grasp at and what we're prepared to pay, while applauding rich men who can afford to swan off out of the system while lecturing us on it - and then stiff the system in the place they settle. The whole things infantilises us.

We must zip up the back, the free pass footballers, pop stars, authors and other luvvies get, while we bemoan the bonuses and tax avoidance of people responsible for thousands of jobs, or ministers trying to reconcile our demands for things we won't pay for.

It makes is babies and I detest it. On a related note I recall the poll I put on her asking whether people would pay more for equivalent british made goods to those manufactured overseas. The answer was a resounding no, including from the lefties. Well; that is exactly why british jobs disappear in favour of offshore. It is our responsibility and the pathetic attempt to shift it while also wanting to complain about that is that same process of infantilisation.

Seriously, how on earth can you defend someone who justifies anyone would avoid tax if they could, simultaneously condemning the tories for dealing with the gap between tax contributions and expenditure?

How can you suggest its me that's 'at it'?

 

[Brainwrong]

That's fine K, but it doesn't alter things one iota does it? He was avoiding supporting the Irish welfare state also.

Plus he says 'anybody would agree with a scheme where they don't have to pay tax'

That's a statement in and of itself regardless of how that scheme became available to him.

Let's face it, Tories are despicable for easing the tax burden on someone earning 45k while shouldering a massive mortgage and raising kids, while it's ok for arts millionaires to avoid tax completely - cos anyone would agree with that.

Typical elitism sadly.

I should clarify that I don't criticise him or taking advantage of it, simply take issue with the double standard

It goes to the heart of the matter cos the government doesn't fund or not fund the nhs et al;

You do, I do, Irv does, or it's passed to our children via government debt.

To be honest, I winced at that statement from him. Funnily enough, I think we should pay our taxes because there are patently millions of people worse off than us. I haven't gone seeking a tax haven because that's not fucking ethical.

My original gut reaction was the fact that he's not in Ireland for tax purposes and that he's also not there to change the way the Irish tax system is set up so it feels like a moot point.

However, I see you point re the hypocrisy. I've never got the reluctance to pay tax when you''re absolutely minted. Well, I do get it, it's because folk are greedy ****s and don't really give a fuck about anyone else. But, still, I don't get it.

 

[gun ainm]

that quote when put against his campaigning does look pretty hypocritical to be honest - it'd be interesting to see the wider context from where it came though and to allow IW respond to the allegation....anyone know him :hmmm

 

[egb_hibs]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/18/booksnews.artsnews

Here is where I got it from. Though other than what brain wrong added there isn't anything more to see.

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Aye but eeeg.....

This just exemplifies, the sophistry, obfuscation, procrastination and outright mendacity that makes the British state the Perfidious Albion we must get out of Union with.

Just so we are clear. :coffee:

 

[Davy]

Aye but eeeg.....

This just exemplifies, the sophistry, obfuscation, procrastination and outright mendacity that makes the British state the Perfidious Albion we must get out of Union with.

Just so we are clear. :coffee:

Easy for you to say that :rascal: but I bet even with independence we would soon create our own greedy B's.....oops watch I dont drop sean connerys name here

 

[egb_hibs]

To be honest, I winced at that statement from him. Funnily enough, I think we should pay our taxes because there are patently millions of people worse off than us. I haven't gone seeking a tax haven because that's not $#@!ing ethical.

My original gut reaction was the fact that he's not in Ireland for tax purposes and that he's also not there to change the way the Irish tax system is set up so it feels like a moot point.

However, I see you point re the hypocrisy. I've never got the reluctance to pay tax when you''re absolutely minted. Well, I do get it, it's because folk are greedy ****s and don't really give a $#@! about anyone else. But, still, I don't get it.

I have mixed feelings on tax. Fundamentally it is theft or extortion but it's also a necessary evil.

I am perfectly happy with the principle of paying into a common pot for common services and to support the less fortunate, however this loses its legitimacy when;

To an increasing extent we are required to fund unsustainable 'equally valid lifestyle choices' which damage and hand damage on, and which have only been made possible by welfare.

The state is increasingly authoritarian and intrudes into realms where it has no business doing so.

The system is losing any sense of connection between what you put in and what you get out and is radically unfair in this respect.

Vested interests allow state institutions such as education, to become conduits for progressive ideas which impeded social mobility and entrench poverty.

Vested interests prevent any serious attempt to modernise state institutions to provide tax payer value, and to ease the unsustainability of our current course.

 

[Dub]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jun/18/booksnews.artsnews

Here is where I got it from. Though other than what brain wrong added there isn't anything more to see.

Presumably, as the tax rules in Ireland as they apply to IW don't appear to be retrospective, in other words it is only the next book he publishes [and any subsequent books] after his move that qualifies as tax exempt, he will continue to pay taxes to Westminster on income from all previously published books. That being the apparent case, what is the problem you have with him speaking out? If he has moved over there to support his girlfriend at Uni why should he not take advantage of the tax laws in the country in which he is now domiciled?

 

[egb_hibs]

Presumably, as the tax rules in Ireland as they apply to IW don't appear to be retrospective, in other words it is only the next book he publishes [and any subsequent books] after his move that qualifies as tax exempt, he will continue to pay taxes to Westminster on income from all previously published books. That being the apparent case, what is the problem you have with him speaking out? If he has moved over there to support his girlfriend at Uni why should he not take advantage of the tax laws in the country in which he is now domiciled?

Not sure why I have to keep restating the obvious - are we dazzled like teenage girls before a pop star, determined not to hear a word against him because he's a good bloke and one of us?

He says that anyone would pay no tax if such a scheme was available to them. As a stance, that is complete incompatible with complaining at tory tax and spend policy, even if we was never personally part of such a scheme.

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The tax approach in irleand also sucks by the sounds of it, prioritising arts luvvies for tax breaks , wtf are they on ? Must be smoking craic

 

[gun ainm]

Not sure why I have to keep restating the obvious - are we dazzled like teenage girls before a pop star, determined not to hear a word against him because he's a good bloke and one of us?

He says that anyone would pay no tax if such a scheme was available to them. As a stance, that is complete incompatible with complaining at tory tax and spend policy, even if we was never personally part of such a scheme.

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The tax approach in irleand also sucks by the sounds of it, prioritising arts luvvies for tax breaks , wtf are they on ? Must be smoking craic

he may also be of the belief that the tax system in Ireland is wrong but just doesn't have the willpower to resist it - bit like finding a carrier bag full of cash on the bus - theres the right thing to do and then there's temptation - who knows he may even be making equivalent charitable donations to worthy causes.....? I agree with your rationale just not sure we should judge him based on this one comment.

 

[Dub]

Not sure why I have to keep restating the obvious - are we dazzled like teenage girls before a pop star, determined not to hear a word against him because he's a good bloke and one of us?

He says that anyone would pay no tax if such a scheme was available to them. As a stance, that is complete incompatible with complaining at tory tax and spend policy, even if we was never personally part of such a scheme.

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The tax approach in irleand also sucks by the sounds of it, prioritising arts luvvies for tax breaks , wtf are they on ? Must be smoking craic

Who the fukk said anything like that? You read into things to suit your own agenda sometimes. He is probably close to the truth when he says that anyone would pay no tax if the opportunity was available to them.

You started this particular argument with this;

'The British welfare state thanks you for your tax contribution Irv'

I made a comment that he still pays tax to westminster and will pay tax to westminster on all previous books published but you appear to be ignoring that and instead attemptiing to belittle anyone who doesnt agree with you.

 

[vasco de gama]

he may also be of the belief that the tax system in Ireland is wrong but just doesn't have the willpower to resist it - bit like finding a carrier bag full of cash on the bus - theres the right thing to do and then there's temptation - who knows he may even be making equivalent charitable donations to worthy causes.....? I agree with your rationale just not sure we should judge him based on this one comment.

I don't think EGB is judging him based on this one comment - I think he is being judged on this comment being combined with what we know of IW and concluding that he is a fairly typical 'liberal arts entertainer'. There's been plenty scoffing on this site at the likes of Jimmy Carr, Russel Brand and Frankie Boyle for their double standards.

The bag of cash scenario doesn't do it for me. I would say its more like you just had a 4 course meal at a top restaurant and on your way out to your chauffeur driven limo you see a voucher for a free sandwich available from the government - the voucher is intended for the hungry and the needy but you take it anyway cos, you know, you just never could resist that wafer thin mint offer either. Would I take the voucher myself - maybes aye, maybe naw but at the moment I don't have that choice - Irvine, Frankie, Jimmy, Russel, Sean Connery and that wee scrote George Osbourne do.

 

[Jack]

Not sure why I have to keep restating the obvious - are we dazzled like teenage girls before a pop star, determined not to hear a word against him because he's a good bloke and one of us?

He says that anyone would pay no tax if such a scheme was available to them. As a stance, that is complete incompatible with complaining at tory tax and spend policy, even if we was never personally part of such a scheme.

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The tax approach in irleand also sucks by the sounds of it, prioritising arts luvvies for tax breaks , wtf are they on ? Must be smoking craic

I don't see how it is incompatible. I assume he was 'happy' paying the going rate here until he recently moved over there to be with his burd. Now he's 'paying' taxes at the going rate over there.

There's lots of expats only too eager to stick their neb in, telling us what were doing wrong, most I'd imagine have forgotten what a UK income tax form looks like. As a recent payer to the UK coffers, probably still paying this current tax year, I'd say he has as much right as anyone and more right than many.

 

[egb_hibs]

Who the fukk said anything like that? You read into things to suit your own agenda sometimes. He is probably close to the truth when he says that anyone would pay no tax if the opportunity was available to them.

You started this particular argument with this;

'The British welfare state thanks you for your tax contribution Irv'

I made a comment that he still pays tax to westminster and will pay tax to westminster on all previous books published but you appear to be ignoring that and instead attemptiing to belittle anyone who doesnt agree with you.

I said it dub, cos I'm wondering why the hell there are so many attempts to excuse, which I guaranfuckingtee would not be forthcoming for a banker in the same position.

What am I reading in to suit my agenda? My agenda is straightforward - I detest the infantilisation I describe above, and the hypocrisy grates as well.

Who am I trying to belittle? My comment you quote was accompanied by a quote giving IWs view and also exists in the context that he lives abroad generally and thus is another rich tax exile. I don't condemn any of that in itself, it's the hypocrisy when attached to criticism of tax policy that benefits the far less wealthy, or reduction in spending where he would avoid funding that - as he claims anyone would - if he could

You say it's probably right noone would pay tax if they could avoid it, also. How on earth can you then complain about tory policies either?

Do we all need a paternal state to keep us in line, controlling our pocket money for us? Are we angry at the tories for forcing more freedom on us? If not that, then what is the beef, if you would not personally pay any tax if you could get away with it?

This was exactly why I wanted independence.

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he may also be of the belief that the tax system in Ireland is wrong but just doesn't have the willpower to resist it - bit like finding a carrier bag full of cash on the bus - theres the right thing to do and then there's temptation - who knows he may even be making equivalent charitable donations to worthy causes.....? I agree with your rationale just not sure we should judge him based on this one comment.

if that is the case he has no business taking the political stance he does. Demanding state spending while skiving tax if you can get away with is worse than any tory policy, even if you aren't rich.

 

[Dub]

I said it dub, cos I'm wondering why the hell there are so many attempts to excuse, which I guaranfuckingtee would not be forthcoming for a banker in the same position.

What am I reading in to suit my agenda? My agenda is straightforward - I detest the infantilisation I describe above, and the hypocrisy grates as well.

Who am I trying to belittle? My comment you quote was accompanied by a quote giving IWs view and also exists in the context that he lives abroad generally and thus is another rich tax exile. I don't condemn any of that in itself, it's the hypocrisy when attached to criticism of tax policy that benefits the far less wealthy, or reduction in spending where he would avoid funding that - as he claims anyone would - if he could

You say it's probably right noone would pay tax if they could avoid it, also. How on earth can you then complain about tory policies either?

Do we all need a paternal state to keep us in line, controlling our pocket money for us? Are we angry at the tories for forcing more freedom on us? If not that, then what is the beef, if you would not personally pay any tax if you could get away with it?

This was exactly why I wanted independence.

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if that is the case he has no business taking the political stance he does. Demanding state spending while skiving tax if you can get away with is worse than any tory policy, even if you aren't rich.

If you are going to quote me at least do it properly. I said "He is probably close to the truth when he says that anyone would pay no tax if the opportunity was available to them" which is not the same as typed by you. Semantics perhaps.

Also, where did I say I agreed with his stance. I stated something that was pretty obvious in that it is only his books published while he is domiciled in Ireland that would be tax exempt and that therefore he is more than likely still paying tax on income from previous books. How the heck are you managing to twist that to make him sound like a tax dodging tory rich boy?

 

[egb_hibs]

Dub, I don't know what you think I'm twisting. He is rich, he has stated he would dodge tax where he can. He's not a tory, just your oh so typical wealthy left wing artist, saying one thing and doing another.

It is untenable for rich people to avoid tax were they can, justifying it on the basis that 'anyone' would do the same, while getting on their high horse about those who have to square state spending with the tax take. If you can't see the issue with this, I am genuinely surprised, but that's your prerogative.

My op was a throwaway aimed at this self indulgent and oh so common application of double standards. It doesn't bear endless repeating. Nor even does the more serious point that this represents a much more widespread worldview, always grasping, always demanding more state spending, but rather less keen to step up and contribute as necessary to enable that. Which is one central reason we're in the mess we're in.

Ps I never intended to misrepresent you when i paraphrased you.

 

[Dub]

Dub, I don't know what you think I'm twisting. He is rich, he has stated he would dodge tax where he can. He's not a tory, just your oh so typical wealthy left wing artist, saying one thing and doing another.

In that guardian article he was quoted as saying "I didn't move here for tax reasons, but obviously as a writer I would take advantage of it" which is a world away from your claim that he said he would avoid tax where he can. If it's the law of the land that he doesnt pay tax then it would be crass stupidity to pay tax anyway. Surely you can see that.

It is untenable for rich people to avoid tax were they can justifying it on the basis that 'anyone' would do the same, while getting on their high horse about those who have to square state spending with the tax take. If you can't see the issue with this, I am genuinely surprised, but that's your prerogative.

I would quickly agree with that except is it at odds with reality in this case..see answer above.

My op was a throwaway aimed at this self indulgent and oh so common application of double standards. It doesn't bear endless repeating. Nor even does the more serious point that this represents a much more widespread worldview, always grasping, always demanding more state spending, but rather less keen to step up and contribute as necessary to enable that. Which is one central reason we're in the mess we're in.

I'm not certain that you can stick a post in and then claim later that it was a "throwaway line" M.

I agree with you re people [grasping to keep a hold of their money and] avoiding tax using various loopholes [and that is not a fault in the system per se, rather it is because the rules havent sufficiently been updated to take account of modern day] and the quicker all the loopholes are closed the better. No argument here but again, the rules in Ireland state that IW will not pay tax on any publications that occur while he is domiciled there and these are modern[ish] and not therefore open to the vagaries that might exist in archaic laws [which is the important bit].

Ps I never intended to misrepresent you when i paraphrased you.

I reckoned you didn't but thanks for clearing that up.

 

[egb_hibs]

In that guardian article he was quoted as saying "I didn't move here for tax reasons, but obviously as a writer I would take advantage of it" which is a world away from your claim that he said he would avoid tax where he can. If it's the law of the land that he doesnt pay tax then it would be crass stupidity to pay tax anyway. Surely you can see that.

no, I really can't. How you can pontificate on tory tax and spend while grasping opportunities to avoid contributing when made available to your highly rarified group, and whilst already rich - it's beyond me D, it truly, truly is. Tory policy is formed by the fact that people vote for it because they want it. How can you complain that while putting your snout in the trough?

I would quickly agree with that except is it at odds with reality in this case..see answer above.

I totally don't understand this. This has got hee haw to do with his motives for moving to Ireland and everything to do with his attitude to paying tax, or not, when the opportunity presents itself.

I'm not certain that you can stick a post in and then claim later that it was a "throwaway line" M.

dont misunderstand me - I stand by it and am not minimising it. Rather there us nothing to add to it, nothing to be gained from me trying to restate the point in different ways. It's a simple comment on a pervasive and age old pattern.

I agree with you re people [grasping to keep a hold of their money and] avoiding tax using various loopholes [and that is not a fault in the system per se, rather it is because the rules havent sufficiently been updated to take account of modern day] and the quicker all the loopholes are closed the better. No argument here but again, the rules in Ireland state that IW will not pay tax on any publications that occur while he is domiciled there and these are modern[ish] and not therefore open to the vagaries that might exist in archaic laws [which is the important bit].

are you saying that we are only obliged to pay tax to the extent we are forced to? If so how can we complain any government policy if that policy is the sole arbiter of what is right?

 

[HenryLB]

Problem is nobody thinks of themselves as rich, not in the sense of having spare money. And even the ones who do have stupid amounts of cash are convinced that it's somehow different for them, that it's them against the world.

I worked for this famous guy, minted, who was v classically left/labour. Hated the Tories, spent his whole time cursing their thieving, cruel ways and those of the bankers. Then he got his accountant to put his weekly shop through as expenses. And a lot more besides.

I've never seen someone who hated paying tax as much as that. The connection between him avoiding it and the government having less to hand out to poor people literally never occurred to him. Because for him, like most everyone else, there was a mythical group of plutocratic fat cats who were the ones who should really pay.