bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
"We will provide certainty wherever we can. "
What a load of rhetoric crap.
What a load of rhetoric crap.
Brexit
- Thread starter bigmanandy
- Start date
bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
Labour have said they'll hold them to account, blah blah. Torys will do whatever they want.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
NI is going to be nuts - strict border checks for every crossing. fences and border patrols?
not just people there will need to be customs checks on every back lane?
bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
Arranging things with leaders in NI will certainly be hellish with all that's going on currently.
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
What? Brexit will be good for Scotland? What makes you think that K.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
This is absolute insanity.
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
Not sure why anyone who feels this way voted yes to independence: every economic factor that is a risk here would be much more amplified in Indy scenario.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
it isn't the same though, iScot had a path...it knew the deal it wanted, it wanted EU member... brexit is completely rudderless, they don't know the deal they want.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
What makes you think that it won't? Can't be trade as we do double the amount of trade with the rUK than we do with the EU and you absolutely want us out of the UK?!
I think the EU is corrupt to its core. I voted out despite all its risk and the inevitable short term bumpy road ahead. I'm convinced the UK will gain a step ahead of the rest of the EU as it eventually disintegrates into chaos and it's inevitable split. There can't be monetary union without political union and there's no way the population of the EU member states want political union.
Incidentally I find all these Brexit negotiations being played out by the UK government phoney. No decisions will be made until after the French and German elections and by that time Europe may look completely different.
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it isn't the same though, iScot had a path...it knew the deal it wanted, it wanted EU member... brexit is completely rudderless, they don't know the deal they want.
Was the path with or without EU monetary union?
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
Wanting to leave customs zone/free trade zone/potentially becoming a tax haven is significantly more serious than the possibilities of Scotland leaving The UK. Yes had a plan to join The EU.Whether that could have been realised is a subject for debate, but at the very least, it was a plan.
'No deal is better than a bad deal' seems to me to be totally wrong.
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Because pretty everything Scotland exports to EU is through English ports, bypassing the significant detail of where in UK it originates. So, no one knows the real figure.
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
Mark has nicely answered the question re trade. As to the monetary union, you know fine well iScotland planned to use the £ [which belongs to us as much as anyone else in the UK despite what was said during Indy about us "not getting to use the £"
Findlayhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
I bet you I am not the only person in Scotland who voted to leave the EU and voted and will vote to leave the UK.:coffee:
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
alas no - we were going with the pound :coffee: at least in the short term.
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
[MENTION=561]Kenny[/MENTION] and [MENTION=409]southfieldhibby[/MENTION]
Kenny there was and is no plan for Indy. There is 'promotional material' which represents an snp view. Pro brexit couldn't do this as you need to have control of the civil service which was in remain hands. This is not really material in the scheme of things.
As for the disruption - many people loudly scorned the threats that financial companies and others would move south. It can seem like the same people are now terrified about analogous moves prompted by brexit.
England was a far bigger export market for Scottish consumer finance - retail banks, insurance companies etc - than Europe is for British ones. It is a far older and entrenched union than the by comparison overnight phenomenon of the EU. It would be much more significant for the the Scottish economy to leave the U.K. than for the British one to leave the EU.
Its perfectly possible to be yes and remain - it's my position for one - but I simply don't understand how you could hold as stark a view as that brexit is absolute insanity and yet support yes - which on that reasoning is barking to a degree that cannot be put into words.
Kenny there was and is no plan for Indy. There is 'promotional material' which represents an snp view. Pro brexit couldn't do this as you need to have control of the civil service which was in remain hands. This is not really material in the scheme of things.
As for the disruption - many people loudly scorned the threats that financial companies and others would move south. It can seem like the same people are now terrified about analogous moves prompted by brexit.
England was a far bigger export market for Scottish consumer finance - retail banks, insurance companies etc - than Europe is for British ones. It is a far older and entrenched union than the by comparison overnight phenomenon of the EU. It would be much more significant for the the Scottish economy to leave the U.K. than for the British one to leave the EU.
Its perfectly possible to be yes and remain - it's my position for one - but I simply don't understand how you could hold as stark a view as that brexit is absolute insanity and yet support yes - which on that reasoning is barking to a degree that cannot be put into words.
bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
Theresa May slipped up during her speak and basically admitted her parties lies during campaigning for this. A country where only the uber rich prosper, no thanks, time to leave the uk.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
With respect Mark hasn't answered. It's a vague statement. Are you seriously suggesting that the Scottish economy isn't more integrated in the economy of the UK than it is with the EU?
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And our application for EU membership was going to be accepted on that basis?
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
Thing is manders you sound exactly like a brexiteer here; all your cry from the heart is missing is a 'take back control' tag line.
The leadership of May's party backed remain btw.
Findlayhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
We are currently living in a world where the worlds 8 richest people in the world own more than half the worlds wealth of the poorest countries.Think about that for a moment, let the fact sink in.Now tell me,who in their sain mind thinks that that situation is in anyway desirable or acceptable.But that is exactly what living under the capitalist system implies.It means a tiny wee minority of people in the world hold more power and more bargaining power than any of us can even dream of.
Now what was the whole European debate all about?It was all about how one set of venture capitalists could run the roost over another set of venture capitalists.Some big businesses in the City of London,think they would rather stay within the European Market whilst others don't.But the European project was always about a set of countries setting up an economic bloc in order to compete with the USA and with Asia.This was always a neo liberal agenda, that was served to replace the full flowing Kensyian position which ground to a halt with the oil crisis of the early 70's.For Thatcher and Reagan it was a way of pushing free flowing monetarism,which meant increasing privatisation and the attempt to crush under foot any attempt to run the economy by the state.
For workers it meant a continued freezing of wages,contracts that meant uncertain hours and a lack of trade union representation.For workers this means a round of continued austerity and cuts.The brexit vote was by and large an attempt by the working class to show that this wasn't a situation that they wanted to continue.Workers should be saying that they want no part to play in the ruling class agenda.If the ruling class have decided that the no longer want to run outside the single market, then the working class should be saying that they accept that, but they don't accept any curb of the free movement of peoples inside or outside of Europe.We don't want cuts, we don't want austerity and we want the right to work in what ever country we choose.:coffee:
Now what was the whole European debate all about?It was all about how one set of venture capitalists could run the roost over another set of venture capitalists.Some big businesses in the City of London,think they would rather stay within the European Market whilst others don't.But the European project was always about a set of countries setting up an economic bloc in order to compete with the USA and with Asia.This was always a neo liberal agenda, that was served to replace the full flowing Kensyian position which ground to a halt with the oil crisis of the early 70's.For Thatcher and Reagan it was a way of pushing free flowing monetarism,which meant increasing privatisation and the attempt to crush under foot any attempt to run the economy by the state.
For workers it meant a continued freezing of wages,contracts that meant uncertain hours and a lack of trade union representation.For workers this means a round of continued austerity and cuts.The brexit vote was by and large an attempt by the working class to show that this wasn't a situation that they wanted to continue.Workers should be saying that they want no part to play in the ruling class agenda.If the ruling class have decided that the no longer want to run outside the single market, then the working class should be saying that they accept that, but they don't accept any curb of the free movement of peoples inside or outside of Europe.We don't want cuts, we don't want austerity and we want the right to work in what ever country we choose.:coffee:
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
I didnt say anything remotely like that. Marks response rightly suggested that neither of us has any remote idea who Scotland exports most to because of the way exports are treated once they go over the border. If you can supply me with exact figures on exports including those that are labelled as going out from England [IE English ports but are actually Scottish] then we can maybe come back to this.
Jack
Private Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
In the same way as it's preposterous to suggest there won't be any trade between the UK and Europe come brexit it would be the same when Scotland gets independence from what's left to the UK.
There will be a change. It will be so small I doubt anyone in Europe will notice it though. We'll see a price rise but everything will still be available then as it is today.
There will be a change. It will be so small I doubt anyone in Europe will notice it though. We'll see a price rise but everything will still be available then as it is today.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
Agreed.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
Nope your not...but this time around Ill vote to stay part of Uk...it might seem bad to some leaving Europe, but to break up the union when England would then be outside Europe sounds worse to me. Plenty people in Europe threatening us...lets wait and see. For example, do Vauxwagon really want to make it difficult to sell their cars here? Does Spain really want to do without British holiday makers? As for travel, I travelled to Morroco with no issues surrounding the need for a VISA and they are not part of Europe, why should it be difficult to make it easy for European flights? There is a big wide world out there we can trade with without having to pay in billions. I don't have all the answers....and barely know the questions, but I have not been impressed with Europe of late and think we would be better left to make our own decisions and laws.
I long stopped hating the English simply because they are English. I hate oppressors and greed, but there is plenty of that whether we are in UK or Europe. I would rather concentrate on taking down the house of Lords with it's ridiculous rules on hereditary titles, than sticking with being ruled from afar. I of course am in the minority in Scotland, but thats what democracy is
Findlayhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2007
The position I havee on indy, is one of political expediancy.The fact is that if we were to see the break up of the british state, then I for one am not going to stand in the way of it.For workers the main enemy is at home with the british ruling class and the british state.In my opinion it makes it easier to bring forth a fightback against the system if we go for it's weakest link. That weakest link at the moment is the union of the states.Workers have to fight on two fronts one front, being with austerity, north and south of the border, the other with the border itself.I'm not here to see a propping up of the capitalist,neo liberal agenda, I want to see an end to it.:coffee:
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
I'm not sure I understand your arguments Davy.
Volkswagen don't have any say in how brexit works although they may have some influence in Germany to try to help their cause in negotiations. Even after Brexit they will sell cars here but the price will be higher due to a levy being imposed. However, it is Theresa May who set her stall out by saying she doesnt want to be part of the single market [because that came with freedom of movement].
People will continue to go to Spain for holidays and probably in the same numbers as do now.
Not sure what Morrocco has to do with this as to my knowledge you have only ever needed a passport to go there and still do today.
You are correct of course that there are other countries with whom the UK can trade but writing deals isn't done in a day. I read the other day that a deal with USA could take 20 years to thrash out. That seems a long time and is probably exaggerated but the point is we wont leave the EU one day and sign new deals the next. We already trade with other countries and pay tarriffs so it isnt as if we can't do it now, we just cant have free trade agreements.
I've never hated english people for being english and I don't know anyone who has but like you I do hate oppression and greed and I see that emanating from the Tories [who look set to govern for many years to come]. I can't quite equate that though with the house of lords as they arent really reknowned for their oppression but again I agree that it is ludicrous that there are so many of them that they couldnt all attend the house on the same day because there wouldnt be room. I hate to admit however that the HOL do perform a function which is to curtail Government and to stop the party in power running wild with any ideas they have no matter how ludicrous.
I'm saddened to read that you would vote to remain part of the UK but that's your prerogative.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
It's technically true to say that nobody knows the exact figure, but as part of the ESS the Scottish Government makes a pretty educated guess. I doubt they underplay it.
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It's not true to say that they simply forget about their provenance once they go over the border.
Export Statistics Scotland - Publication
These are based on a survey and therefore to an extent estimated, but they are used by the Scottish Government and as I say are unlikely to be wildly wrong.
It's a bit stupid IMO to embark on a course of action claiming that you have absolutely no data whatsoever, so the answer might be anything at all, when evidently it's pretty clear that one can have a fairly firm idea of the basic numbers on where exports are going.
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Problem as I see it is that this "if you don't give us what we want we'll undercut you and become like Singapore" is as flawed as when (some) Scottish Nationalists used it. Because it relies on a favourable trading environment with near neighbours. It's all very well saying you'd only tax Hyundai 5% to be in the UK, but if they have to pay 20% to get their cars into Europe that's not much of a deal.
And anyway it's all talk. The political will does not exist to live in a genuine low-tax economy.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
Ok here goes again. Vauxwagon was simply me using a major company...it could have been any, to show that these companies would not wish for a bad trade agreement. Uk has a lot of money and a lot of car buyers, and why would major companies wish to make it difficult to sell their products? That said if they do, perhaps it will open the door to a UK based car manufacturer to bring production to UK factories and undercut foreign imports.
Morrocco I cited because I was showing that travel around the world does not have to be difficult if countries do not want it to be. Hitting us with larges travel taxes, visas etc would simply drive the British public to seek countries outside the EURO zone, so the threat of Visas to me is something that doesn't scare me.
If we leave UK, we go back to the whole arguments of what currency do we use, and do I really want to have to apply for a VISA if it came to that, to go and visit my son in England? Perhaps not because he might be forces out of the armed services as we would have to spend a fortune seperating the military. Anyway these things were debated last time around and I know you wont be convinced and I am not here to convince anyone, we all have our own thoughts.
I am not a Tory supporter, never have been. However I have been fairly impressed with Theresa May so far. She is not given to wild claims, nor plays her hand out in the open. I suspect she will be a tough negotiator. She also made some interesting comments today, which some people will dismiss, but I like to wait and see if they are serious about what they say,
Quoted from BBC website
BBC assistant political editor Norman Smith writes: I didn't expect Theresa May's speech to give so much emphasis to the downside of globalisation and, with it, implicit criticism of the international elite.
She suggested that too many bosses were not playing by the rules of paying their taxes, taking on board their social responsibility or spreading the benefits of growth and wealth.
That's quite a tough message when you're talking about people in front of you.
Mrs May needs these people to be on board because they bring in billions of pounds of investment - she also needs them to be confident about Brexit.
Her message to the international elite was fairly blunt: "You guys need to shape up the way you operate - we can't carry on as before."
This is surely what most of us here want to hear?
She argued for reforms so the global economy created wealth for all, rather than a "privileged few", and "centre-ground mainstream politics" could "work for everyone...again sounds good
The prime minister promised that the UK after Brexit would take on a "leadership role as the strongest and most forceful advocate for free markets and free trade anywhere in the world
Surely a world free market allows countries to compete on a more level playing ground, rather than just elite hand picked countries of Europe? I watched a documentary recently where a South American country (possibly Bolivia but cant remember) recieved aid from USA...but that anything outside of emergency aid simply leads to dependence. They were in the ridiculous situation for example of being a world leader in growing coffee beans, but they were being sent coffee from USA in aid packets and cheap imports! Even the President admitted there was a fundamental flaw there and mistakes made, however nothing said as to how to remedy it. If African, Asian and other world countries could operate with us and other countries on free trade models, then we may not have to send as much aid. Or is it the case that Europe did not want to allow others places to flood the market with cheap imports in order to create jobs in Europe? That may be the case, so then Theresa might have a job on her hands trying to sort free trade deals, whilst not putting our own businesses out of a job. But free or new trade to the likes of Australia, China, Canada, USA, Japan, India etc would surely open up many new markets for us, no matter if it took a few years to figure.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
You think?
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
She seems very different politically - in fact within Tory boundaries, almost the opposite. The press seem to be calling her this just because she is a woman. Seems a bit sexist to me.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
Agreed. I think politically she's very different. Quite difficult to pigeon-hole I think. Obviously she's a Tory but she's not for me falling obviously into one nation or Thatcherite territory. I thought her speech yesterday was reasonably clever. I do laugh at everyone screaming for her to absolutely define her position on Brexit. Have these folk ever fuckin negotiated?!!!
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
I have read comment that she resembles European centre right / Christian democrat positions more than anything from the Anglo Saxon tradition. No bad thing one would think , for all those who admire the European model they built (starting in rubble and ashes). Ironic that at the same time France is shaping up for a showdown between Thatcherism and old labour with a dash of fascism on top.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2005
Thats the point Murky, we are being threatened with talk of visas and difficulty/price in travelling if outside Europe, but it doesn't have to be that way, and probably wont...however for those who insist in scaremongering, I will put forward the imaginery question of requiring a VISA for England. That may be rubbish, but what about people who want to travel to England for work or to move near relatives? Will it be harder if we leave? Who knows, but it is easy to imagine everything would be nice and cosy being in the EU apart from England. I remain unconvinced and wonder how much we would have to pay in to be part of it. One thing is for sure, Oil is not going to be our saviour, but thats another can of worms danni
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
Supreme Court rules Parliament gets a vote, Scottish Parliament doesn't.
Getting tasty.
Getting tasty.
bigmanandy
Aulder Than The Internet This Radge
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2006
Scottish parliment no vote, screw over coming no doubt.
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2002
Indeed.
I turned on to the Victoria Derbyshire prog about 10 minutes before the judgement was due.
Turned it off very quickly when one member of the audience said she voted to leave the EU , and couldn't understand why they're trying to overturn that decision!
Watched the judgement on the News channels.....
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
They voted for the UK parliament to have the ultimate say, except where they disagree with it.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
I think it's right that the UK Parliament should have the final say because whether you like it or not we voted to remain in the UK.
However, I recognise that a part of the shambolic shameful Better Together campaign was that voting to stay in the UK would preserve EU membership for Scotland whereas leaving would put it in doubt.
This all produces opportunities for Scottish Nationalists but to my surprise since Brexit was voted for they've been unable at all to capitalise.
However, I recognise that a part of the shambolic shameful Better Together campaign was that voting to stay in the UK would preserve EU membership for Scotland whereas leaving would put it in doubt.
This all produces opportunities for Scottish Nationalists but to my surprise since Brexit was voted for they've been unable at all to capitalise.