southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
Tomorrow. The day designated as Independence Day if we had voted Yes in 2014.
24th March 2016
- Thread starter southfieldhibby
- Start date
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
Thats spooky.
I've been an SNP member for 13 years, and I got an email from Nicola today about the Holyrood elections. I don't know why - I never normally read them because I'm not particularly in line with her or Salmond in their thinking - but I fired off a response about the lack of a vision on independence.
I feel that her polished, perfect media line is becoming too far detached from the core goal of independence and the SNP are becoming worryingly comfortable as the governing party of Scotland. Plus ca change, plus ca la meme choise.
And seeing as I was on a roll, I added the implausibility of the whole snp elected members in Holyrood and Westminster favouring staying in the EU. Utterly incredible, and implausible.
I'll let you know if I get a reply
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2002
Thats spooky.
I've been an SNP member for 13 years, and I got an email from Nicola today about the Holyrood elections. I don't know why - I never normally read them because I'm not particularly in line with her or Salmond in their thinking - but I fired off a response about the lack of a vision on independence.
I feel that her polished, perfect media line is becoming too far detached from the core goal of independence and the SNP are becoming worryingly comfortable as the governing party of Scotland. Plus ca change, plus ca la meme choise.
And seeing as I was on a roll, I added the implausibility of the whole snp elected members in Holyrood and Westminster favouring staying in the EU. Utterly incredible, and implausible.
I'll let you know if I get a reply
I didn't to a question I asked via Twitter , I'm beginning to go off her to tell you the truth
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
I've been a fundamental nationalist from the day I was born. My worry is not that I'll leave the SNP, but the SNP will leave me.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
I'll argue all day long with you about Sept 14, but stop saying this. It's condescending and inaccurate...unless that's your target, then bullseye.
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
There you go again with the "This wee island" bullshit K.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2006
So we could have had today off work as well as tomorrow & Monday?!
Sakes, man.
Sakes, man.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
A five day weekend, but the selfish unionist bastards would rather steal from the disabled for their own tax cuts. Goons.
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Iain Macwhirter: Shame on the SNP for choosing to park its conscience (From Herald Scotland)
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
No idea why it's perceived as condescending or inaccurate. The UK is an island and I believe it makes much more sense to pool and share all our resources. I know to those pro independence you don't get that.
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You think the majority of unionists in the UK are happy with any Government cutting money from the disabled to give to the rich through cuts to capital gains tax etc? Come on Mark even that **** IDS was uncomfortable with it...
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In your opinion. Unfortunately you have no respect whatsoever for the majority who didn't vote Yes.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
Firstly, no dividing of any island would have happened, it's inaccurate to suggest otherwise.
Secondly, it's not a 'wee island'. GB is the 8th largest island on Planet Earth, to continually propogate the idea it's anything else but a significant land mass keeps the seed of insecurity and downtrodden islanders going.
So stop it, it's factually wrong and makes you look daft.imo.
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I do, yes. Why else do we have a majority Tory government? And you think IDS resigned over that policy? you're a funny guy.
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2002
That's more articulate than I could put it, but that's a lot of how I feel.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
Complete fukking bullshit Kenny. I respect peoples wishes not to want to be Independent but it doesn't stop me still wanting Independence. There is a difference.
What I don't like is puerile crap using emotive phrases like "This wee island" when that is not the case.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
First of all no I don't think that's why IDS resigned. As I said he's a **** and he's used all of this for other motives... Just daft to suggest the majority are pro cutting help for disabled to give to the rich IMO. There's nothing to back that up. Certainly not a Tory Government elected through a democratic set up that is laughable and an affront to democracy. (What I hate about the UK is how we've convinced ourselves this is a democracy when we all constantly get a government that wasn't what the public voted for). When I spoke of dividing this island I'm not talking of borders or anything physically. I'm talking about dividing this island where public health in one part is a priority and in another not etc etc.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
To use health as an example of why not to 'divide the island' has to be some kind of joke, right?
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Same here. It's a shame the momentum generated by the referendum has become too concentrated on The SNP. The unquestioning loyalty to the brand is making politics in Scotland poorer, I think.
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
You don't see any irony in this given what you've just posted on the pro independence thread?
Incidentally I believe IDS did resign for the reasons he have and also for others, namely Europe.
He has an unfortunate manner and is maybe not the sharpest tool in the box but he has definitely been committed to what he believes is the furtherance of the less well off. I think he has been set up and undermined over a period of years by Osborne who apparently has no time for what he sees as IDS religiously inspired zeal for the subject. I think he has been forced to be the front for cut after cut, completely undermining him in his subject and he has snapped - brining Osborne down may consequently be a third motive.
I think Osborne is a remarkable poltical actor - getting those who think they know all about Tory bassas convinced that IDS is the bad guy is a tour de force example of his arts.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
Obviously all bollocks..
If Scotland had gone independent today, it would be facing sado-austerity | Coffee House
If Scotland had gone independent today, it would be facing sado-austerity | Coffee House
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
It's telling what sources you offer up Kenny, whilst denigrating Wings.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
and the UK borrowing? Better Together is increasing the deficit.
I have more confidence in iScot reducing it's deficit than WM reducing the UK's deficit.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
I read somewhere yesterday that under Osbourne the national debt had climbed by £550 Billion, edging towards the £2 Trillion mark. Now obviously there's not many tories on here ( the blue ones anyway) but does the opposition offer an alternative? Debt produced by Westminster on behalf of The UK. Scotland would have debt, clearly, but if the likes of Smurf,Henry and Proc insist we'd be worse than Greece given we'd probably make different choices to Westminster we're goosed.If folk who live and work here think that, then deary me.
Smurf
Private Member
- Joined
- May 15, 2003
And the right wing Guardian? And the non politically independent IFS?
IFS warns Scottish deficit has become three times greater than UK's | UK news | The Guardian
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The national debt is increasing because despite the cuts we are still spending more than we are earning hence the continued borrowing.
There's really no easy answer but independent experts suggest in an independent Scotland it would be even worse.
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The deficit isn't increasing. It is falling.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2002
Can't say I share your benevolent view of IDS.
I think he's a liar and a snake oil salesman. His 'bedroom tax' and attacks on the benefits system were cost saving exercises and attacks on the less well off, or that's my view of it anyway.
He has made two major positive contributions to the political landscape however.
1. The stooshie caused by his resignation has torpedoed Gideon below the water line and his chances of slithering into number 10 have diminished markedly.
2. He has resigned.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
isn't that a bit like saying "that shed in the garden is going to fall down, look at how awful it is, imagine living there" but it is your shed you should have looked after it.
The UK is running up the debt.
[MENTION=2693]Smurf[/MENTION] how can scotland NOT accrue UK debt?
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Happy days - what is the problem then.
by this time next year we'll all be millionaires
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
scotland can avoid contributing to it by spending less than taken in through taxation in Scotland (whichever purse it ends up in)
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Are you arguing Gideon should have imposed more 'austerity'?
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
I thought that went back to the UK treasury though, not like we are paying off our share?
and when the happy day comes - wouldn't scotland still pick up a share of UK debt?
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
That's the same IFS info regurgitated by the same unionist propaganda machine Kenny. I'm not looking too deeply into it as I did in 2014, but does it explain the model of government it's based on? Does it just take the same spending plans used by Westminster and model it on that for an Independent Scotland, or does it suggest Scotland would/could make different plans, move the economy in different directions and use them? Don't bother answering, I'll take a punt.
The IFS is politically independent in the sense it draws folk from both sides of the spectrum in England, both unionist parties.
And cheers for explaining how debt rises mate, I'd have been none the wiser without your insight!
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No. Spend your money on different things, impose more taxes on folk who can afford them, reduce payments to folk who don't need them, invest in places like Motherwell or Govan or Dundee or Inverness in something that's not office based. Instead of selling the rights to something, do it yourself.
And be austere over a longer time frame rather than race towards 2020 and your ( now less likely) coronation as PM
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
You asked how we could avoid growing the debt - that's how we could and also prepare for independence. If we are consuming more than we take in we are growing the debt whichever pots monies go in and out of.
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[MENTION=409]southfieldhibby[/MENTION];
Those are conflicting aims - raising taxes is incompatible with attracting inward investment and manufacturing in Scotland versus cheaper locations
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2006
Ok, I'll bite.
Firstly. Pooling resources? WE HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES. It's the rest of those fucking leeches elsewhere in the UK who are using OUR resources, be it oil, generated electricity and OUR fishing grounds. There's my view on pooling resources. They want our resources? then let them pay through the fucking nose for them.
Secondly. I never gave a fuck about, "oooh, we're too poor, or too stupid to govern ourselves. We need mummy England to take care of us" It's fuckin ridiculous and laughable that we need to hide under the butchers apron from the big bad world and let another country tell us what to do. However you dress it up, that what we are, fuckin lap-dogs to England.
I hadn't even considered independence day was to be today......until now! And I'm fuckin angry at the shitebags of this country who stabbed their countrymen in the back last September. We had the chance to walk the world with our heads held high, but no, 55% of the population collectively shat themselves. Complain about the tories all you want but we deserve all we get. Seriously hope no Labour traitors chap my door wanting my vote, I'd set the dog on them.
Firstly. Pooling resources? WE HAVE ALL THE RESOURCES. It's the rest of those fucking leeches elsewhere in the UK who are using OUR resources, be it oil, generated electricity and OUR fishing grounds. There's my view on pooling resources. They want our resources? then let them pay through the fucking nose for them.
Secondly. I never gave a fuck about, "oooh, we're too poor, or too stupid to govern ourselves. We need mummy England to take care of us" It's fuckin ridiculous and laughable that we need to hide under the butchers apron from the big bad world and let another country tell us what to do. However you dress it up, that what we are, fuckin lap-dogs to England.
I hadn't even considered independence day was to be today......until now! And I'm fuckin angry at the shitebags of this country who stabbed their countrymen in the back last September. We had the chance to walk the world with our heads held high, but no, 55% of the population collectively shat themselves. Complain about the tories all you want but we deserve all we get. Seriously hope no Labour traitors chap my door wanting my vote, I'd set the dog on them.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
yeah yeah totally - more aimed at folk who talk about scotland living beyond their means and i was trying to ascertain what are the practicalities of living within scotlands means while the UK doesnt.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
Are they? Raising taxes on folk who can earn more money doesn't work? They'd rather pay less taxes on less wages? And cheaper things from abroad, I've always thought that to be a rather narrow point of view. Use Steel as an example. Buy it from China or Motherwell. If you make it in Motherwell you create tax payers and consumers, the supply chain and the knock on effect of improving Motherwell, the houses, the schools etc.All that and reduce the welfare spend in that town. Buy it from China ( cheaper) and you get none of that.
It would take significant government intervention and nationalising things, but it's a radical alternative to the current model.
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
And a share of all UK assets presumably [including any overseas assets].
Probably better if you do bite them. That dug of yours looks like it could give someone a rather nasty lick
egb_hibs
Private Member
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2002
That's alchemy.
Make steel at a price no one will pay, subsidise its manufacture for other markets, so almost everything you sell is at a loss, and pay well over the odds for Scottish government purchases, at further loss.
You'd be as well just giving your intended steel workers a salary for staying at home and save a lot of trouble.
The economic problems resulting from globalisation are real and hellishly complicated - Westminster and others haven't solved them not because they're 'bad' but because they are incredibly difficult.
Meanwhile, attracting investment in markets in which Scotland can compete - High tech for instance - is not going to happen if taxation provides an obstacle where there are many other places manufacturers could go instead.
Can you think of a single small country which attracts inward investment while also having high tax rates? I can't.
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Ps raising taxes on high earning people is also a non starter if England doesn't do it.
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Pps hate to say it but approaches like the above would be far better undertaken within the UK as it stands - at least there is a bigger internal market for over expensive steel.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
The deficit is falling. The debt is increasing though.
I'm not sure where the confidence you speak of would come from. According to the Scottish Government Scotland would start with a much worse deficit per capita than the UK as a whole and I haven't seen any realistic measures for tackling it.
On another thread I had this discussion with somebody else and I honestly don't get this notion that indy would wipe the slate of the economy clean and suddenly bestow all kinds of different options and choices, sufficient to immediately create prosperity and large govt revenues.
You would still have the same tax base, the same people and companies and capital flows from which to create government revenue. I'd honestly welcome hearing how independence would allow you to harness that in a radically different way.
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We do, effectively. Through capital transfers Scotland's spending is subsidised, so in fact you're currently the ones doing the leeching. That's the subsidy your proud nationalist party fought tooth and nail to retain, to great cheers all round. Ironic, given that all that would have been gone today had they got their way.
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
I think i have less confidence in WM than you... I (and most scots) don't think trident is a good idea - i (and most scots) don't think leaving the EU is a good idea...
the UK has given up manufacturing
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2005
I can Would you like to know more?
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Do you think that's because there isn't a great call for it in the SE where financial corporations are more the order of the day
Kenny
Private Member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
Do you think that's because there isn't a great call for it in the SE where financial corporations are more the order of the day
I don't see any balance? I don't see any protection of the remaining uk manufacturing?
I see the erosion of workers rights leaning towards a non-fulltime workforce in un-skilled or semi-skilled employment.
I don't see much being done to reverse that trend.
southfieldhibby
Private Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2002
I seem to recall in the depths of my memory a suggestion -made on here I think- that the govt should give everyone over the age of 70 £500,000.00. On the condition they buy a new car, give their home to their kids and buy a new one and they'd not get a pension anymore. The actual cost of giving the money away against the benefits to the car industry/building industry/welfare was close. Or something along those lines. Think there was another couple of things they had to buy.
Anyway, to take my theory even further, you create shipbuilding/rig building on the clyde using that steel.. other european countries have terrific ship building industries.And companies like Maersk- why don't we have a comparable? Or tidal/wave generators too. I dunno about the cost differences between Chinese/Scottish steel factored in with reducing benefits/creating taxpayers and consumers to buy from corner shops or Aldi or Evans Halshaw or Wimpy, and I'm inclined to agree that England/Wales should be considered as partners in such a venture.The same logic applies to Barrow etc.
I think there are examples of huigh taxes/inward investment, but I'd be looking to keep corp taxes comparable to England, just introduce a 60/65p tax rate. Folk would pay it if they're earning that kind of money...the argument they'd simply move to other countries is finite, folk will always want/need employment.
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
