What makes a champion

[Bangkokhibby]

I'm thinking specifically jockeys and racing drivers. I thought about revisiting this topic which was a pretty full on argument on .net, some of you may remember.
My point then and always will be is that there are many very good jockeys and racing drivers who will only ever become champions if they're fortunate enough to be signed by a top horse trainer or race team.
In an interview I saw today, John Francombe, some say the greatest ever jump jockey refused to accept the plaudit. He quite rightly said there are many good capable jockeys who just haven't had the chance to ride the good horses or sign for a top stable. The prolific trainer Martin Pipe said "give me a decent jockey and I'll make him champion"
Same goes for race drivers surely. Check Lewis Hamilton now. Give a good driver the best car he'll be champion. Take the car away and not saying he won't ever win another race but he won't be champion.

 

[Beagle]

I'm thinking specifically jockeys and racing drivers. I thought about revisiting this topic which was a pretty full on argument on .net, some of you may remember.
My point then and always will be is that there are many very good jockeys and racing drivers who will only ever become champions if they're fortunate enough to be signed by a top horse trainer or race team.
In an interview I saw today, John Francombe, some say the greatest ever jump jockey refused to accept the plaudit. He quite rightly said there are many good capable jockeys who just haven't had the chance to ride the good horses or sign for a top stable. The prolific trainer Martin Pipe said "give me a decent jockey and I'll make him champion"
Same goes for race drivers surely. Check Lewis Hamilton now. Give a good driver the best car he'll be champion. Take the car away and not saying he won't ever win another race but he won't be champion.

Back in the days when racing drivers actually drove the cars, instead of these mobile gamers of the boring as fuck modern era who get plonked into a computer with wheels, you could have put Jim Clark in a Model T Ford and he could still win a Grand Prix.

 

[joethehibby]

I'm thinking specifically jockeys and racing drivers. I thought about revisiting this topic which was a pretty full on argument on .net, some of you may remember.
My point then and always will be is that there are many very good jockeys and racing drivers who will only ever become champions if they're fortunate enough to be signed by a top horse trainer or race team.
In an interview I saw today, John Francombe, some say the greatest ever jump jockey refused to accept the plaudit. He quite rightly said there are many good capable jockeys who just haven't had the chance to ride the good horses or sign for a top stable. The prolific trainer Martin Pipe said "give me a decent jockey and I'll make him champion"
Same goes for race drivers surely. Check Lewis Hamilton now. Give a good driver the best car he'll be champion. Take the car away and not saying he won't ever win another race but he won't be champion.

Your post takes me to the question of women competing in mens sport as well . I refer to Rachael Blackmore , the only time I’ve said a woman is a match for any man in a particular sport
I seen her ability and proceeded to back her all the time with some big wins in the grand national, gold cup, and other big races , early retirement unfortunately, bookies would be happy, me no .

 

[greencol]

I'm thinking specifically jockeys and racing drivers. I thought about revisiting this topic which was a pretty full on argument on .net, some of you may remember.
My point then and always will be is that there are many very good jockeys and racing drivers who will only ever become champions if they're fortunate enough to be signed by a top horse trainer or race team.
In an interview I saw today John Francombe the great, some say greatest ever jump jockey refused to accept the plaudit. He quite rightly said there are many good capable jockeys who just haven't had the chance to ride the good horses or sign for a top stable. The prolific trainer Martin Pipe said "give me a decent jockey and I'll make him champion"
Same goes for race drivers surely. Check Lewis Hamilton now. Give a good driver the best car he'll be champion. Take the car away and not saying he won't ever win another race but he won't be champion.

Ive seen a couple of clips with 'Gypsy Johnny' as he was called back in the day.
He is probably correct.
If the horse is good enough then the jockey has to be competent only.
F1 has become farcical.
4 World champions since 2010, and one of those a one off.
3 men winning 15 titles in comparison to the 1960's where 7 drivers won the title.
With 6 different motors from 60- 69.
For me , Jim Clark is the best ive seen and will always be the greatest.
But looking back to the 50's, Fangio won 5 titles in 4 different motors in only 7 full seasons ( he missed a whole season recovering from an accident).
An astonishing record.

 

[joethehibby]

Ive seen a couple of clips with 'Gypsy Johnny' as he was called back in the day.
He is probably correct.
If the horse is good enough then the jockey has to be competent only.
F1 has become farcical.
4 World champions since 2010, and one of those a one off.
3 men winning 15 titles in comparison to the 1960's where 7 drivers won the title.
With 6 different motors from 60- 69.
For me , Jim Clark is the best ive seen and will always be the greatest.
But looking back to the 50's, Fangio won 5 titles in 4 different motors in only 7 full seasons ( he missed a whole season recovering from an accident).
An astonishing record.

The last bit sounds like he could possibly be the best ever tbh . To pinpoint him you must be older than me

 

[greencol]

The last bit sounds like he could possibly be the best ever tbh . To pinpoint him you must be older than me

I never saw Fangio. He retired in 1958
I did see JC win his 5 British GP's.
I pointed out Fangios record which is phenomenal and has to be mentioned in any discussion on F1.
He may arguably be the best ever?

 

[Keepitgreen]

Your post takes me to the question of women competing in mens sport as well . I refer to Rachael Blackmore , the only time I’ve said a woman is a match for any man in a particular sport
I seen her ability and proceeded to back her all the time with some big wins in the grand national, gold cup, and other big races , early retirement unfortunately, bookies would be happy, me no .

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[SuperTortolano]

It would be interesting to put all the top F1 drivers in the same car over 3 races and see who comes out on top. As close as you're going to get to seeing who's the best

 

[Young porty]

Back in the days when racing drivers actually drove the cars, instead of these mobile gamers of the boring as fuck modern era who get plonked into a computer with wheels, you could have put Jim Cla a Model T Ford and he could still win a Grand Prix.

Many rate clark the best driver of all time. Was brilliant in which ever discipline he drove in including hammering the yanks in the indy 500.

 

[Young porty]

It would be interesting to put all the top F1 drivers in the same car over 3 races and see who comes out on top. As close as you're going to get to seeing who's the best

Clark won 3 separate races in 3 different cars at goodwood in 1965. He won the formula 1 race and 2 separate races on the undercard so to speak. That year he won the formula 1,formula 2,tasman trophy for older cars and the indy 500. If that is not the definition of the complete driver I don't know what is. He also won the British touring car championship in 1964. Hard to think of someone else with that extraordinary dexterity in some many fields

 

[Hammi]

It would be interesting to put all the top F1 drivers in the same car over 3 races and see who comes out on top. As close as you're going to get to seeing who's the best

I think they regularly get done off the rally drivers when they do the race of champions?
Although I don't think the best in f1 compete anymore?

F1 won't let the actual best drivers come in, they're all part of an elite club.
Folk like Seb Loeb used to test in F1 and be competitive, refused his license.

Max is that good though, he's gonna dominate the endurance races too I think.