Ukraine.

GORDONSMITH7

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What would you prefer?

And is there a country that has adopted your preference with any success?
If I live to see a Socialist society with democratic workers control I bags that not only the commanding heights of the economy are nationalized under workers control and management but fag run smuggling are also put into the dustbin of history🌞

BIG G
 

BonScott64

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If I live to see a Socialist society with democratic workers control I bags that not only the commanding heights of the economy are nationalized under workers control and management but fag run smuggling are also put into the dustbin of history🌞

BIG G
You won't
 

HaarlemShuffler

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As I asked above....

At the same time documentation confirming what we all knew about the brutal treatment of Muslim Uyghur in China. 1 million in concentration camps, sorry rehabilitation centres.
Why are the Western powers not sanctioning them? Take a wee look at where your iPhone or any other products are produced. Hypocracy.


We just heard on the news that both warmongering, defenders of freedom and democracy, Liz Truss and Joe Biden have both respectivel proclaimed disgust and shock at the revelations, which of course are not revelations.
Will the US, UK or EU sanction China. Zero chance, after all is said and done, Business is business.

BIG G
Well, Biden seems to be single-handedly taking on the military protection of Taiwan, which has caused a major Chinese diplomatic flutter, and of course the EU has de facto ceased taking the most expensive commodity, fuel, from Russia.

So both ends of NATO have dared to worsen their trade relations with major non-NATO players.

Me, I would be much happier to see an end of populist and conservative rightwing politics in Europe for now, with a bit more unity on the left (Dutch Labour party, f.e., looking at joining up with Green Left party in Holland - and something similar in France too I think I saw recently).

Then the shibboleth of conservative politics consolidating wealth unequally amongst their top % club will have to be tackled.

And that's not even mentioning the environment or health; we have to find a way of looking after our numbers on this one planet for now. Let's hope it is one day given to us to develop peacefully on other planets too... but problems there are ahead, some for another day.
 

Davy

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That itself tells a very sorry story. Back to your 'facts' then Davy. How many US Intelligence reports leaked today?
Be clear, the last think that the US, UK et al want is a negotiated peace.

BIG G
I would imagine they all do, but the reality is they wont either settle for Russia taking over Ukraine...they probably would have if Ukraine didnt show some balls
 

moathibby

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It's a proxy war with Zelensky doing Nato's bidding and always has been,and with Finland on the border of Russia joining Nato does the war spreading seem even more certain or remote?If the two sides don't get around the negotiation table soon we will be moving into very dangerous territory indeed.
 

moathibby

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As for the 'Muslim' question.Equatting Saudi Arabia with woman in the Hijab in Leicester is highly disengenous.Ask say the muslim women on Gogglebox if they are being controlled by their menfolk and you'll be told to fuck off.
 

Rocky

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It's a proxy war with Zelensky doing Nato's bidding and always has been,and with Finland on the border of Russia joining Nato does the war spreading seem even more certain or remote?If the two sides don't get around the negotiation table soon we will be moving into very dangerous territory indeed.
Did you miss the part where Russia invaded Ukraine?
 

paigntonhibby

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As for the 'Muslim' question.Equatting Saudi Arabia with woman in the Hijab in Leicester is highly disengenous.Ask say the muslim women on Gogglebox if they are being controlled by their menfolk and you'll be told to fuck off.
Ask the muslim women on gogglebox what would happen if they wanted to marry outside their religion or change it.
I take it you missed the news reports about honour killings
 

jetsam1

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Finland was once part of Russia. They have been invaded twice by the USSR the return of which seems desired by Putin. They have a right to feel intimidated and to look to increase their security. They have a long land border with Russia too, Sweden is vulnerable to attack and gets "buzzed" regularly by Russain aircraft.

The world has bent over backwards to accomodate Putin over the years and not "provoke" him, think the assasinations on UK soil even, war crimes in Czechnia and Syria, annexation (illegally by any stretch) of Crimea, the occupations and sponsorship of civil war/unrest in Luhansk and Donbass........ If this was the USA you would be screaming blue murder and camped out on the steps of the US embassy. Why cut the slack when it comes to Russia?

Oh, forgot the interference in elections and funding the far right.

Diplomacy is the right thing to do, but Putin is not interested in that until he gets everything he wants. Or is forced to negotiate. He is an authoratarian dictator with total power over the Russian state, he can do whatever. He is an archetypal bully. If he doesn't want to be treated as a pariah etc there is a simple way out, just the ethno-nationalistic ideology he is wedded to will not allow that. Greater Russia, the superiority of Slavic Russians to all and so on.

The great threat of Ukraine is a somewhat functioning democracy (however imperfect) in a largely Russian speaking country and looking towards a more European future as Russian has nothing to offer exept poverty for the masses and darkness.

Of course the silly Easter Europeans who never elected the socialists into power after communism, how can they possibly be able to think for themselves? Too corrupted by capitalism now I suppose. May as well just abandon them to a dictatorship as it is all they are good for, and atomise Europe back to squabbling little states while the great empires look on and laugh and exploit. Britain will be one of those little nations I am afraid.
 

jetsam1

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Still haven't seen a realistic solution from Moaty as to how everyone should have responded to the invasion. All I have seen is that everyone is a hypocrite and war is bad. Which is fine, but what to do with an unprovoked attack? Especially with a country on the UN Security Council with China as an ally? How to handle the Uighyur situation with China without "conflict"?

What is China up to in the Pacific by the way?

Maybe the days of democracy are soon to be over and the world will descend into yet more despotism. Humans at a species level cannot seem to ever get beyond a bunch of chimps flinging their own faeces at each other. Even with the majority of individuals being essentially decent at that level, we get leaders like Johnson (a clown and corrupt), Putin and Jiangpin (corrupt and murderous)?
 

jetsam1

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We have been a murderous, greedy, destructive species since our inception and we do not deserve the earth we inherited
A cursory five minute perusal of World history does rather suggest that certainly. But I think our social evolution and mental evolution simply has not kept up with the last 5000 years since the start of farming and "civilisation". 5000 years is not that long considering we evolved as hunter gaterers in small extended family groups and we actually function quite well in that sort of environment.

Now, we have political ideologies, technology the likes of which would magic to a Stone Age person, economics, exploitation and so on and so forth. Even the changes over the last 200 years are unprecedented.

My idea is that we are advanced chimps who have let our physical world far outstrip us with regards to our social structure and evolved group dynamics.Hence tribalism and flags. Discuss. I know that is simplistic and not being an anthropologist may be ripped apart by one but at my level that seems to be the big thing for the species to overcome.

I am educated in Geology, we are not that successfull a species on that timescale. If we do want to become a geologically significant species we need to buck our ideas up. That will mean jettisoning a lot of ideological baggage and accepting both ourselves and other people.
 

BonScott64

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A cursory five minute perusal of World history does rather suggest that certainly. But I think our social evolution and mental evolution simply has not kept up with the last 5000 years since the start of farming and "civilisation". 5000 years is not that long considering we evolved as hunter gaterers in small extended family groups and we actually function quite well in that sort of environment.

Now, we have political ideologies, technology the likes of which would magic to a Stone Age person, economics, exploitation and so on and so forth. Even the changes over the last 200 years are unprecedented.

My idea is that we are advanced chimps who have let our physical world far outstrip us with regards to our social structure and evolved group dynamics.Hence tribalism and flags. Discuss. I know that is simplistic and not being an anthropologist may be ripped apart by one but at my level that seems to be the big thing for the species to overcome.

I am educated in Geology, we are not that successfull a species on that timescale. If we do want to become a geologically significant species we need to buck our ideas up. That will mean jettisoning a lot of ideological baggage and accepting both ourselves and other people.
From the dawn of mankind to this very moment our mindset has not advanced one iota.
 

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Davy

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As for the 'Muslim' question.Equatting Saudi Arabia with woman in the Hijab in Leicester is highly disengenous.Ask say the muslim women on Gogglebox if they are being controlled by their menfolk and you'll be told to fuck off.
Unless I have made a mistake and missed a post I assume you were replying to me. I never once mentioned Leicester or UK. But there are a list of countries which I can give you them where it is illegal to depart the faith, the UAE which is currently allowing Russians to buy property whilst gaining by selling the west more oil, is top of the list. No one wants to sanction Dubai though! In other countries where it is not illegal it is definitely discouraged and a blind eye turned to punishment. The woman here are brave enough to speak out simply because they are in UK where we still for the most part allow freedom of speech. This did not save the shopkeeper in Glasgow however when someone from Pakistan dropped in to murder him for being too friendly with the natives. If the population of Muslims grow, as it will, they will be hoping there is not an influx of radical believers as they certainly will not be so brave. But the point stands that a blind eye is turned around the world to relatively wealthy Islamic countries while condemning poorer countries like Afghanastan. If you are going to reply to a post about world politics please do not insult my intelligence by citing a minority of people in a protected country. You should be proud to live in a country that still respects freedom instead of slavering over countries that practice restraint and dictatorship

Interesting article into the mind of Muslim woman in Somalia today on BBC What beauty parlours reveal about Somali women
 
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Davy

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Nowt happening @Davy ?
Just took a bit of time out from it for my own sanity. Also been extremely busy with work and hobby. There was also the danger of Ukraine fatigue as has been mentioned on TV where people hear so much they become immune to the situation or feel well what can I do etc

The war won't finish anytime soon by the looks of it. There is going to be a lot of attacking and counter attacking over the next few weeks and RF are digging in and planting mines expecting a counter attack. The next large scale movement may be in a month when larger artillery weapons will arrive in Ukraine and moved to front lines. Sadly during this time Russia will have obliterated most of the the Eastern towns and cities with indiscriminate rocket and missile attacks. A further change might be as Ukraine receive larger weapons, Russia may target Kviv and Lviv with even longer range missiles in retaliation.

There are many horror stories but they can be read on the Ukraine Now app on telegram as the reports here get doubted a lot and I really can't be bothered arguing about these reports. Safe to say the fact three Russian soldiers have already plead guilty at war trials shows the rumours are more than that. In retaliation again I suspect Russia to put Azov fighters on war crime trials to appease their population.

Germany and Italy appear to be getting cold feet about supplying weapons whilst Hungary and I think Bulgaria are still a bit entrenched in believing Russia is like a brother to them. Turkey is a strange one, continue relations with Russia whilst selling very effective drones to Ukraine.

What is barely being mentioned in the West is the movement of children to Russia who are speedily being put up for adoption. This is possibly one way they wish to continue to plan for a future work force as they lose more and more of their youth to war.
 

hibbybilly

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Just took a bit of time out from it for my own sanity. Also been extremely busy with work and hobby. There was also the danger of Ukraine fatigue as has been mentioned on TV where people hear so much they become immune to the situation or feel well what can I do etc

The war won't finish anytime soon by the looks of it. There is going to be a lot of attacking and counter attacking over the next few weeks and RF are digging in and planting mines expecting a counter attack. The next large scale movement may be in a month when larger artillery weapons will arrive in Ukraine and moved to front lines. Sadly during this time Russia will have obliterated most of the the Eastern towns and cities with indiscriminate rocket and missile attacks. A further change might be as Ukraine receive larger weapons, Russia may target Kviv and Lviv with even longer range missiles in retaliation.

There are many horror stories but they can be read on the Ukraine Now app on telegram as the reports here get doubted a lot and I really can't be bothered arguing about these reports. Safe to say the fact three Russian soldiers have already plead guilty at war trials shows the rumours are more than that. In retaliation again I suspect Russia to put Azov fighters on war crime trials to appease their population.

Germany and Italy appear to be getting cold feet about supplying weapons whilst Hungary and I think Bulgaria are still a bit entrenched in believing Russia is like a brother to them. Turkey is a strange one, continue relations with Russia whilst selling very effective drones to Ukraine.

What is barely being mentioned in the West is the movement of children to Russia who are speedily being put up for adoption. This is possibly one way they wish to continue to plan for a future work force as they lose more and more of their youth to war.
Cheers Davy, I understand your reasons for the hiatus, just post when yi want mate. Glad your awrite. 👍
 

Jack

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I was just thinking you (@Davy) hadn't been updating us recently.

Don't worry about the doubters. You have your view, they have theirs. I might suggest there are more on here who agree with you and you shouldn't feel the need to respond to all alternative posts. Some folk will never be convinced. (That's a general comment about many posters on all subjects not just the obvious one or two on this thread!)
 

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