Ukraine.

Jack

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I think you'll find that completely bombed to smithereens towns and villages in Ukraine can be verified as being bombed to smithereens towns and villages in Ukraine and they haven't been rearranged to make them look worse.
I think you're absolutely right. There's too many reports from so many sources all saying the same and similar.

I'm also pretty certain that some of the stuff coming out of Ukraine will be a mixture of stories rolled into one or hearsay or both and more. I hope that doesn't sound as though I want to belittle it, it might not happen exactly as reported but I have no doubt there is some truly horrific stuff going on.

I appreciate @Davy giving us his updates. It gives different perspective to what's happening.
 

BonScott64

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I think you're absolutely right. There's too many reports from so many sources all saying the same and similar.

I'm also pretty certain that some of the stuff coming out of Ukraine will be a mixture of stories rolled into one or hearsay or both and more. I hope that doesn't sound as though I want to belittle it, it might not happen exactly as reported but I have no doubt there is some truly horrific stuff going on.

I appreciate @Davy giving us his updates. It gives different perspective to what's happening.
War is horrific, there is no glory in it whatsoever for any side, victor or defeated. There's bravery and selflessness on a personal level and regaining your independence/freedom as a country - glory no - nothing glorious about the Iraq military and civilian bodies smashed to a pulp that I witnessed in Iraq (hundreds). Tiny hamlets, villages, large towns, cities, centuries of history - bombed to bits or completely destroyed - not always clear by who either. Elsewhere you have Syria and Yemen as well as genocide going on in Africa, and no doubt terrorism will be rearing its ugly head again soon in Europe - world is an utter cess pit.
 

BonScott64

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I wont continue with discussing the damage I fully intend to revisit Ukraine at the earliest opportunity and will take my own videos. I will also visit mass grave sites
Good for you. But...when the Ukraine (hopefully) regains it's freedom and starts to rebuild, it will be to their own ideals (and rightly so) so what you will see is what they WANT you to see - whether that's a ruin, a monument, shrine etc etc. If the tables were turned Russia would act exactly the same.
 

Davy

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Good for you. But...when the Ukraine (hopefully) regains it's freedom and starts to rebuild, it will be to their own ideals (and rightly so) so what you will see is what they WANT you to see - whether that's a ruin, a monument, shrine etc etc. If the tables were turned Russia would act exactly the same.
The fact they have to rebuild speaks for itself.
 

Doc Shrink

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It’s not a war.
It’s a special military operation apparently.
 

moathibby

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I think you'll find that completely bombed to smithereens towns and villages in Ukraine can be verified as being bombed to smithereens towns and villages in Ukraine and they haven't been rearranged to make them look worse.
There was a few weeks ago pictures preporting to be bombed towns in the Ukraine turned out to be Beirut.
 

moathibby

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What is happening in former Zaire is,as you say, truelly horrendous.I found out by watching Al Jazeera not the BBC who, if they do report it it'll be on Hard Talk which gets aired when most of us are in bed.
 

hibbybilly

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Never seen snow in Beirut before.
 

Davy

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In Luhansk RF have increased the shelling. The smoke is making it difficult to breathe in cities or towns.

Around 50-70 tanks and other military vehicles were destroyed as RF again tried to build pontoon bridges in Luhansk near to Belogorivka and cross the river. There are aerial photos of tanks with tops blown off and other vehicles burnt out.

RF fired phosphorus shells in Kherson region in the village of Osokorovka

Russia have depleted so much equipment that they are trying to buy old Soviet tanks or weapons from third party countries. but these countries are reluctant to sell as they are afraid of sanctions.

More civilians managed to fell Kherson region on buses today, there are volunteers helping to get as many out as possible

The UN voted to launch an investigation into war crimes committed by Russia. 33 countries in favour and 12 abstained. Only China and Eritrea voted against the motion.

UF shot the Russian vessel Vsevolod Bobrov which is a support vessel..story also here Ukraine lines up Russia’s Vsevolod Bobrov ship off coast of Snake Island

Video released of a missile hitting very close to a shopping centre in Odessa on 9th May

A bomb shelter in Finland was shown to have a gym, cafe, football pitch etc


From BBC Ukraine conflict: Russian soldiers seen shooting dead unarmed civilians
 

tayside hibee

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I am genuinely not putting myself down here, nor trying to state the obvious , but I seriously don’t see the point in this kind of war. I don’t understand how anyone can win in the long term.
When our great British government decided to help America bomb the fuck out of Iraq ( not dissimilar to what going on in Ukraine , but paid for by our taxes ) I remember struggling to think , what is to be achieved here ? A simpleton like me could see it was only going to cause mayhem for decades to come . And I was correct.
If Russia , achieve there goal , and gain control of Ukraine, they will have resistance , forever. There situation will be worse than it was before they started this pish .
Again , I appreciate there is more to it than I can ever understand , but there really is some thick evil bastards in power in this world.
 

jetsam1

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I don't think anyone is comparing what is happening to an XBOX game, or disputing that war is horrible and I hope it never finds me.

There is no justififcation for Russia's actions here. If you want Imperialistic BS look here. Of course, if you don't agree with the existance of Eastern European countries and they should just lie down and let the ol' Empires march over them again (Russia behaving like this is depressingly familiar regardless of the political rulers).

How to end this? Well, option one is force Ukraine to surrender unconditionally and let Putin have everything he wants. This is likely to include the whole coastline, much of Eastern Ukraine and the current government either in a gulag or forced to flee abroad. Of course Putin has form for "dealing" with those who try and flee abroad. Then a mass de nazification campaign to make Stalin proud. No illusions here, history suggests it will be brutal as they have to find Nazis and try and control a territory that does not want to be controlled. Only one way that generally goes.

Option two, draw this out into stalemate and force Russia to negotiate. Of course we have seen already Putin does not want to talk or negotiate in good faith and agreements are largely worthless.

Now just think about all the chaos he can cause with control of all that gade farmland and a huge share of the global wheat market........ This will have worldwide implications. I think this is largely straight forward power plays alongside ethno nationalism and maybe a general hatred of the West. There is efforts to rehabilitate Stalin as a hero, and plenty miss the old USSR.

Russia has been bordered by NATO countries for years so that don't fly.

All this "everything is the West's fault" is a little insulting is it not as Russia and Putin always had freedom of action and instead of joining the world and building their country chose to plunder it and stride down the road of autocracy and corruption. No one forced them. The oligarchs knew what they where doing.
 

BonScott64

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I am genuinely not putting myself down here, nor trying to state the obvious , but I seriously don’t see the point in this kind of war. I don’t understand how anyone can win in the long term.
When our great British government decided to help America bomb the fuck out of Iraq ( not dissimilar to what going on in Ukraine , but paid for by our taxes ) I remember struggling to think , what is to be achieved here ? A simpleton like me could see it was only going to cause mayhem for decades to come . And I was correct.
If Russia , achieve there goal , and gain control of Ukraine, they will have resistance , forever. There situation will be worse than it was before they started this pish .
Again , I appreciate there is more to it than I can ever understand , but there really is some thick evil bastards in power in this world.
Ref the resistance bit see Chechnya 👍
 

BonScott64

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I don't think anyone is comparing what is happening to an XBOX game, or disputing that war is horrible and I hope it never finds me.

There is no justififcation for Russia's actions here. If you want Imperialistic BS look here. Of course, if you don't agree with the existance of Eastern European countries and they should just lie down and let the ol' Empires march over them again (Russia behaving like this is depressingly familiar regardless of the political rulers).

How to end this? Well, option one is force Ukraine to surrender unconditionally and let Putin have everything he wants. This is likely to include the whole coastline, much of Eastern Ukraine and the current government either in a gulag or forced to flee abroad. Of course Putin has form for "dealing" with those who try and flee abroad. Then a mass de nazification campaign to make Stalin proud. No illusions here, history suggests it will be brutal as they have to find Nazis and try and control a territory that does not want to be controlled. Only one way that generally goes.

Option two, draw this out into stalemate and force Russia to negotiate. Of course we have seen already Putin does not want to talk or negotiate in good faith and agreements are largely worthless.

Now just think about all the chaos he can cause with control of all that gade farmland and a huge share of the global wheat market...... This will have worldwide implications. I think this is largely straight forward power plays alongside ethno nationalism and maybe a general hatred of the West. There is efforts to rehabilitate Stalin as a hero, and plenty miss the old USSR.

Russia has been bordered by NATO countries for years so that don't fly.

All this "everything is the West's fault" is a little insulting is it not as Russia and Putin always had freedom of action and instead of joining the world and building their country chose to plunder it and stride down the road of autocracy and corruption. No one forced them. The oligarchs knew what they where doing.
The excuse from Russia of the West 'closing' in and threatening its borders is garbage as you state but they have made a huge error in underestimating the Ukranians will to fight and the effectiveness of modern weapons.
The Xbox point is valid in context as you have all of these statistics being churned out and NOBODY knows their real authenticity NOBODY. Ukrainian people are displaced over Europe now with hundreds/thousands probably not accounted for - and as for the number of vehicles destroyed, soldiers killed, missiles fired etc - there's no chance they know these (apart from the individual commanders on the ground though both sides would lie about them anyway) and the stats are being used for legitimising reports/stories and in some cases sensationalism.
Tayside Hibee mentioned the Gulf - we still have no idea how many Iraqis died in that conflict and that was 30 years ago.
 
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Davy

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The accusation is Ukraine wanted to join NATO. I am not sure what the desire was pre 2014 but it certainly intensified after Crimea pulled apart and Russia got involved. Now here it gets hazy. Was it a desire from the majority to leave Ukraine such as happened 100 years ago in Ireland? Or was it driven by a lesser number of pro Russians because it was certainly armed by Russia. All this nonsense that Russia were not involved is ridiculed by the tanks captured and on display in Kiev since 2014.


Crimea could be financed by people such as Ireland was by IrishAmericans but I dont recall the Pentagon sending tanks and guns..though they may have had more involvement covertly.

Now Iget that Russia dont want NATO on their borders but I would say then why antagonize your neighbours,why not be decent neighbours and people would not wish to draw away from them. Remember they were also offered to become a part of Europe.

But Russia in their desire to be a superpower have played up the victim mentality that they somehow need protected from the west.

What is the point of the war? That Ukraine want to be part of a free democratic world where they choose their own politicians for good or bad. They deserve the help of other countries who do not tolerate dictators. As has been said if the West simply allow Putin to walk into Ukraine and he will then hit Moldova and other non Nato countries in his quest to regain strength And these children will grow up brainwashed to follow without question such as we are seeing right now with Russian society who are subject to state only news..and people worry about the BBC?
 

BonScott64

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The accusation is Ukraine wanted to join NATO. I am not sure what the desire was pre 2014 but it certainly intensified after Crimea pulled apart and Russia got involved. Now here it gets hazy. Was it a desire from the majority to leave Ukraine such as happened 100 years ago in Ireland? Or was it driven by a lesser number of pro Russians because it was certainly armed by Russia. All this nonsense that Russia were not involved is ridiculed by the tanks captured and on display in Kiev since 2014.


Crimea could be financed by people such as Ireland was by IrishAmericans but I dont recall the Pentagon sending tanks and guns..though they may have had more involvement covertly.

Now Iget that Russia dont want NATO on their borders but I would say then why antagonize your neighbours,why not be decent neighbours and people would not wish to draw away from them. Remember they were also offered to become a part of Europe.

But Russia in their desire to be a superpower have played up the victim mentality that they somehow need protected from the west.

What is the point of the war? That Ukraine want to be part of a free democratic world where they choose their own politicians for good or bad. They deserve the help of other countries who do not tolerate dictators. As has been said if the West simply allow Putin to walk into Ukraine and he will then hit Moldova and other non Nato countries in his quest to regain strength And these children will grow up brainwashed to follow without question such as we are seeing right now with Russian society who are subject to state only news..and people worry about the BBC?
Some good points, just don't get me started on NI...😉
 
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