Ukraine.

Davy

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Better be over by the summer I wanna get back over there for sunshine and cheap beer :wolfie:
 

Smurf

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Some name for a party that right enough! I’ve no doubt they aren’t really what they claim to be, most parties aren’t when they get in to power… However they are certainly not far right neo nazis either, as was suggested.

The imminent invasion stuff is indeed nonsense, click bait stuff from the media.
I'm not blaming the media for this. It's being deliberately ramped up by the US and UK. FWIW I think it's a perfectly reasonable demand of the Russians that Ukraine isn't to become a member of NATO. Just in the same way in the early 1960's it was perfectly reasonable that the US objected to any nuclear missiles I Cuba.
 
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Zab

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I'm not blaming the media for this. It's being deliberately ramped up by the US and UK. FWIW I think it's a perfectly reasonable demand of the Russians that Ukraine isn't to become a member of NATO. Just in the same way in the early 1960's it was perfectly reasonable that the US objected to any nuclear missiles I Cuba.

I think the existence of NATO as an organisation is at the heart of the problem, it was devised during a different time and seems to tie the world to that era rather than allow us to move on. It probably should be disbanded, and perhaps something new which is more relevant to todays’ challenges… and has Russia and China at the table.

What I’ve said above probably won’t happen so we’re stuck with the situation we have now. I can see your point about Russia, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to be concerned about NATO being at their border. However Ukraine is it’s own country and should be free to make whatever decision it wants in terms of protecting their own border. The fairest way would be to agree a demilitarised zone either side of the border, but that would make life difficult for the purple living there (not that anyone in power really cares about them).
 

GORDONSMITH7

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You tell them Ms Truss!


BIG G
 

Hattie

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The bumbling womble thinking he is able to help anything in this would be comical if it wasnt so serious
 

Davy

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I think the existence of NATO as an organisation is at the heart of the problem, it was devised during a different time and seems to tie the world to that era rather than allow us to move on. It probably should be disbanded, and perhaps something new which is more relevant to todays’ challenges… and has Russia and China at the table.

What I’ve said above probably won’t happen so we’re stuck with the situation we have now. I can see your point about Russia, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for them to be concerned about NATO being at their border. However Ukraine is it’s own country and should be free to make whatever decision it wants in terms of protecting their own border. The fairest way would be to agree a demilitarised zone either side of the border, but that would make life difficult for the purple living there (not that anyone in power really cares about them).
Why should Ukraine trudt Russia..Crimea speaks for itself Nato maybe not be perfect but is a deterrent to Russia rebuilding its territory. Poland enjoy protection, why not Ukraine. Yes they can come to agreement of what is acceptable to have in terms of missiles close to the border but Russia itself is grabbing land near the north Pole and moving its capabilities around as a deterrent to USA.

Would be great if everyone could just live in peace but sadly it wont happen without armies. This constant criticism of the west by people in the west is right I Putin's street. He, along with the Belarussian dictator and Azerbajan are determined to rule by force and ignore democratic opinion. Cant understand why people here are so supportive of them.

As for Ukranians, they dint hate Russian people but they have no desire to move back to Russian rule and should be supported to make their own future.
 

FTJT

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Self-determination is an important principle. It matters in Scotland, it matters in Catalonia, it matters in the Falklands and it matters in Ukraine.

There was no real talk of Ukraine joining NATO before Russia started annexing chunks of it. There were no Western troops gathering in Eastern Europe before Russia went on manoeuvres. Suggesting this is a product of Western aggression is just deranged imo. There's plenty of that to criticise elsewhere.

Putin has no interest in democracy or consensus or reputation or legacy. He has no interest in using international forums as anything other than an opportunity to bind over his rivals and paint them as hypocrites for breaching rules he's never obeyed even remotely. He's only ever going to back down if he risks losing face on his terms, not on anyone else's. If he means to move on Kyiv - and there's every indication he does, or at least did - only the credible threat of a military defeat is going to stop him. And from there it'll be Moldova watching tanks roll in from Transnistria. And then Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, all NATO members, facing demands to demilitarise in the sake of Russian security. And then, well, those countries have ethnic Russian minorities that need protecting.
 

Zab

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Why should Ukraine trudt Russia..Crimea speaks for itself Nato maybe not be perfect but is a deterrent to Russia rebuilding its territory. Poland enjoy protection, why not Ukraine. Yes they can come to agreement of what is acceptable to have in terms of missiles close to the border but Russia itself is grabbing land near the north Pole and moving its capabilities around as a deterrent to USA.

Would be great if everyone could just live in peace but sadly it wont happen without armies. This constant criticism of the west by people in the west is right I Putin's street. He, along with the Belarussian dictator and Azerbajan are determined to rule by force and ignore democratic opinion. Cant understand why people here are so supportive of them.

As for Ukranians, they dint hate Russian people but they have no desire to move back to Russian rule and should be supported to make their own future.

As I said, a demilitarised zone would solve a lot of the problems.
 

Davy

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As I said, a demilitarised zone would solve a lot of the problems.
I agree with that whilst standing firm with Ukraine in defending their rights.
 
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Zab

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I agree with that whilst standing firm with Ukraine in defending their rights.

Agreed. I think it would help Ukraine defend their rights, without the need to join NATO.
 

moathibby

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The idea that Nato had no incursions in that area until Putin moved is laughable.The report the BBC made of what went on in the area during the 30's and 40's is also well skewered.Both Stalin and Hitler are responsible for the mess that is now the Ukraine.
 

moathibby

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The problem that noone is looking at is Gas supplies from Russia and whether or not we can seriously go to war with a country that has a lot to do with our cost of living crises.
 

moathibby

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You've also got to look at EU expansionism and it's sphere of influence.The EU as an economic entity is expanding into areas that were formally either USSR or Eastern Block,you've also got the question of whether Russia is going to ally with China,or stay on reasonable terms with us.Russian money is keeping Boris afloat.
 

moathibby

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Also if you were doing a Chewin the Fat sketch of Carol Dunbar going through the Ukraine Parliament lineup of 'Gid Guy' 'Wank' I think the results would come out in favour of 'Wank'.
 

Al Catraz

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You've also got to look at EU expansionism and it's sphere of influence.The EU as an economic entity is expanding into areas that were formally either USSR or Eastern Block,you've also got the question of whether Russia is going to ally with China,or stay on reasonable terms with us.Russian money is keeping Boris afloat.
Shite can float on its own though and be very difficult to flush …
 

moathibby

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I hear it doesn't burn either.Not that I'm advocating arson.
 

Jack

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You've also got to look at EU expansionism and it's sphere of influence.The EU as an economic entity is expanding into areas that were formally either USSR or Eastern Block,you've also got the question of whether Russia is going to ally with China,or stay on reasonable terms with us.Russian money is keeping Boris afloat.
I don't think you could get a starker contrast between people's self determination and their countries freely joining the EU and 100,000 troops on the border ready to annexe Ukraine!

I'm surprised you don't see parallels between the potential plight of the Ukrainians and the actual plight of the Palestinians.
 

hibbybilly

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Also if you were doing a Chewin the Fat sketch of Carol Dunbar going through the Ukraine Parliament lineup of 'Gid Guy' 'Wank' I think the results would come out in favour of 'Wank'.
Karen😉
 

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