Strict Liability Folks? (1 Viewer)

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PILTONSTANY

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A scenario where Hearts would lose points if certain songs were sung would have me in the home end at Tynecastle in full voice :devilishy:
 
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Purple & Green

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I tend to the position of strict liability and I think the notion that away fans will go in the home end and misbehave is unlikely.

If you to take it to the simplest level then who is responsible? I can only really see it’s the club for home league games or home cup games.
 
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Callumnapier

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If it resorts to giving fans the opportunity to determine the result of a match it’ll turn into chaos.
 
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SlovSam

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Firstly you would need to define what sort of behaviour that should be covered by 'strict liability' but as long as its kept at a high level then this shouldnt be to difficult.

Throwing bottles, individual or group pitch invasions, attacking refreees, acts of damage in the stadium, racism , gender abuse and obvious sectarianism seem easy to identify and the layout of football grounds means its also very obvious who the culprit or culprits were.

Taking recent examples unfortunately involving us and you have an individual Hibs fan who threw a bottle and a Hibs fan who invaded the pitch and accosted a 'Scotlands Shame 2012' player both incidents clearly from the Hibs part of the stadium.

A 'Celtc' fan also threw a bottle and a 'Scotlands Shame 2012' creature chucked a seat and collectively 'Scotland's Shame 2012' fans and Celtc' fans damaged the Hibs stadium and again collectively both were involved in odius sectarian singing and all of this was without question emanating en masse from the away end of the stadium.

With strict liability clubs would be forced to take responsibility for the action of their fans either individually or collectively and therefore Hibs, Celtc and 'Scotlands Shame 2012' would now be looking at the following list of sanctions:

Hibs: Warnings and fines and partial stadium closure.

Celtc: Fines and a ban on selling tickets to away fans.

'Scotlands Shame 2012': Fines, ban on selling away tickets, play all matches in a third country, deduction of all points and subsequent withdrawl of its football licence leading to its non existence as a football club

Use some sort of totting up system over a season or season(s) and clubs across Scotland would face the threat of a points deduction, playing matches behind closed doors or full or partial stadium closure for a defined length of time.

'Strict liability' wouldnt elimate extreme offensive behaviour at football matches but it would reduce the incidents as it would focus minds of the clubs who would then do far more to control their fan base collectively and supporters would self police more and at least indicate to the bam element that they are not welcome or wanted.

Individual supporters going along to games and getting themselves arrested, and fined and then facing lifetime banning orders just to 'getitrightup' their rivals wont happen and would be far to obvious to be effective and very easy for the authorities to identify.
 
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1875

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hibbybilly

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Said as a joke . Ho hum
 
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Greenmachine

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I'm totally against strict liability.
If my brother beat up someone in the street and was caught I would expect him to be punished, not my family. It is absolutely ridiculous the whole idea of clubs being held responsible for the actions of one or two arseholes within their support. Hibs and other clubs pay a fortune for policing and stewards, we are guided by the police as to how they feel the game should be controlled. We have CCTV in the stadium which is now going to be upgraded at the clubs expense. What the hell more can Hibs or any other club do when someone decides they want to run on the pitch or chuck a stone or a coin at a player or a manager ?.
It's the person who commits the offence who should be punished not the club.
I read today that the guy who attacked Grealish has been sent down for three months. I'll bet that will put off anyone else down there trying to copy him. We need to identify the culprits and punish them. That's the answer...not hammering clubs and therefore punishing people who have had nothing to do with the offence.
 
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moathibby

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I feel like I'm shouting into an empty room.How on earth are we going to deal with the likes of sectarianism without there being a united Ireland?How on earth are we going to deal with alianated youth turning up at our games without dealing with lacking resources in education, without dealing in giving youngsters youth centres, where they can be talked to about drug taking and sexual health?How can we stop dealing with racism as long as our govt keeps sending our Windrush generation back to the West Indies and having Boris Johnson talking about pillar box slits?How can we deal with sexism without paying woman the same levels as their male counterparts?How can we deal with homophobia when we've got a society that can't handle that men and woman could use the same toilets along with all points in between?Lets face it very little of this is about 11people trying to outwit another 11 people; and more to do with thousands of people across the world letting off a little bit of steam,otherwise the whole pressure cooker could explode.
 
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Purple & Green

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I'm totally against strict liability.
If my brother beat up someone in the street and was caught I would expect him to be punished, not my family. It is absolutely ridiculous the whole idea of clubs being held responsible for the actions of one or two arseholes within their support. Hibs and other clubs pay a fortune for policing and stewards, we are guided by the police as to how they feel the game should be controlled. We have CCTV in the stadium which is now going to be upgraded at the clubs expense. What the hell more can Hibs or any other club do when someone decides they want to run on the pitch or chuck a stone or a coin at a player or a manager ?.
It's the person who commits the offence who should be punished not the club.
I read today that the guy who attacked Grealish has been sent down for three months. I'll bet that will put off anyone else down there trying to copy him. We need to identify the culprits and punish them. That's the answer...not hammering clubs and therefore punishing people who have had nothing to do with the offence.
Okay, you’ve raised an important point, and how we address single high profile transgressions and conversely persistent transgressions by significant numbers in a crowd.

That’s really it isn’t it, and whether anybody had the stomach to deal with sectarianism and I can only conclude there isn’t the will not even from our own club. What would our founders make of that?
 
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SlovSam

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Its the high profile and obvious acts of confrontation and violence carried out by individuals where (and if we can ignore 'whataboutery') there is a clear pattern developing and Hibs do seem to have a significant problem with unruly indivudals.

November 2018: Hearts goalkeeper is angrily confronted by indivdual Hibs fan as he retrieved the ball from behind the goal.

November 2018: In the same incident a set of keys was thrown at the keeper by an indivdual Hibs fan which footage showed missed him but landed in the net.

February 2019: An empty bottle of buckfast thrown at Scott Sinclair as he took a corner by an indivdual Hibs fan.

March 2019: Tavernier is aggressively confronted on the actual pitch by another indivdual Hibs fan.

March 2019: Same game and it was missed by most but some sort of missile probably food was also lobbed at Tavernier as he celebrated his goal from the other end of the East Stand.

2017 and 2018 : Any number of flare incidents condemmed by the Chief Executive.

There is a common thread here which is that Hibs do have a problem when it comes to high profile games and its not enough to say clubs are doing all they can as the Easter Road incidents clearly show Hibs arent doing all they can.

The CCTV deterent wasnt there as Hibs now admitted their CCTV didnt cover a high risk area of the ground and the stewarding was inadequate as the supporter clearly ran down the stairs and onto the pitch without a steward detterent in sight.

Both home game incidents would of course still have happenned if the radges wanted them to happen but with 'Strict liability' Hibs would have had these measures in place already as they would have been facing partial closure of the ground under some sort of 'Strict Liabilty' topping up disicplinary system.

Self policing by other fans and a modicum of self control by the semi bams would then kick in and the number of incidents would reduce though you can never eliminate them but at least you can try as a club to mitigate them.

Its a cop out by all clubs just to say its 'radge' indivduals and escape responsibility by saying there is nothing we can do about it guv.
 
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Brizo

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Okay, you’ve raised an important point, and how we address single high profile transgressions and conversely persistent transgressions by significant numbers in a crowd.

That’s really it isn’t it, and whether anybody had the stomach to deal with sectarianism and I can only conclude there isn’t the will not even from our own club. What would our founders make of that?

While one person shouting something sectarian is one too many its the mass sectarian behaviour that needs to be addressed first and foremost. 10,000 people aren't going to sneak into someone elses stands and sing a sectarian song so that's what should be focused on first. Identifying a few people each time such a song is sung and banning a few singers each time would soon see it dropped from the bigots repertoire. I don't think you will ever stop the one off sectarian / racist / homophobic shouts but something can be done about the mass singing.

As for individual bottle throwers or pitch invaders, minimum wage , minimum trained stewards shouldn't be expected to deal with that kind of thing. Having the police trackside instead of away in a far corner of the stadium and having them patrolling the stands gangways instead of devolving that job to stewards would at least be a visible more tangible deterrent.

Whether clubs / our club would be prepared to meet any additional expense and whether we have the numbers of police available to do it are debatable ?
 
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