Southport Stabbings

[Doc Shrink]

@emerald green @BigG @1875

EGB has partly replied but I will try explain more. Firstly emerald, if you were having a bit of banter that's fine, I can still take a joke. Yes there is attacks on churches. I do not condone attacks on Mosques either, though if Germany felt that the Mosque they shut down was because of hate preachers then fair enough.
Anyhow it is not about Muslims, but anyone who vandalises/targets churches. All I was saying was the same thought must be for all and none of us should jump to a conclusion...yes I learned my lesson.

Another way churches have been desecrated appears to be when a church is taken over and becomes a Mosque, and Christian graves are dug up so their land doesn't become "desecrated". Now these coffins may be relocated with agreement with the council, I should hope they would? But has there been agreement with families?

But to be fair, I lost the chain of the thread prior to what Rocky had posted

Anyway back to the point as Ill just ramble, here is links to recent attacks on churches

Two Somerset churches vandalised in separate incidents

Reverend Debbi Turley of St Peter's Church in Taunton said the vandalism was "devastating" to find.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not terrorist attacks no, the first likely being a theft

The one EGB pointed to

Statue of Virgin Mary destroyed by vandals at Westminster diocese church - Catholic Herald

Statue of Virgin Mary destroyed by vandals at church in Westminster diocese

catholicherald.co.uk

The bigger picture in the world concerns me. My daughter in laws family have lost their homes despite working 50 odd years and paying taxes in India and are now receiving zero help and having to live in rural districts with family in overcrowded homes. So forgive me if I feel a bit raw when it appears open season on the church. Two or three years ago you could never have expected this to happen.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Back to the UK though, it would look like the Christian church has collapsed for sure, but that is a false picture. Yes church attendance is down by a huge number. That does not mean there is no Christians. In fact I would go so far as to say there might be more. What do I mean by that? Well for years people went to church because it was expected of them. They may have had little faith or none. The established church has vicars who do not even believe in God but want to be a help to others, or worse, enjoy the pay and house that comes with it.

But there are thousands of independent churches springing up where people who do want to explore their faith where they do this as a community of believers rather than relying on one minister/priest to meet all their spiritual and material needs. I have seen churches with as little as a dozen believers through to churches with over 1000 worshippers.

I have seen Emerald negatively mention fundamentalists. But you talk about fundamentalists as if they are all prone to violence and hate. They are not, in fact it would be better to label those who are as hate preachers, whatever their religious persuasion. A fundamentalist is merely someone who believes and sticks to what they believe to be true and does not change with the wind. Very few Christians nowadays I would describe as fundamentalist as they tend to veer from the scriptures in one way or another. But if someone has a particular belief why should they change just because others don't believe their truth? Some people believe it is ok to have a pint but not condoning drunkenness, others say it is better to not drink alcohol at first. But if they respect other peoples right to an opinion then who is being hurt? The fundamentalist in the pack is not harming anyone. But if he/she then says, drinking is evil, we need to stone/jail them then I would label them haters/hate preachers.

Sorry Davy.
I’m retired and therefore rules about “not drinking on school days” no longer apply.

It’s possible I’ll return to your post, but it’s far too long to read in one go.

 

[Davy]

Sorry Davy.
I’m retired and therefore rules about “not drinking on school days” no longer apply.

It’s possible I’ll return to your post, but it’s far too long to read in one go.

Good, means I wont be corrected not one for a drink myself...erm I mean not a drinker who stops on one

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

@emerald green @BigG @1875

EGB has partly replied but I will try explain more. Firstly emerald, if you were having a bit of banter that's fine, I can still take a joke. Yes there is attacks on churches. I do not condone attacks on Mosques either, though if Germany felt that the Mosque they shut down was because of hate preachers then fair enough.
Anyhow it is not about Muslims, but anyone who vandalises/targets churches. All I was saying was the same thought must be for all and none of us should jump to a conclusion...yes I learned my lesson.

Another way churches have been desecrated appears to be when a church is taken over and becomes a Mosque, and Christian graves are dug up so their land doesn't become "desecrated". Now these coffins may be relocated with agreement with the council, I should hope they would? But has there been agreement with families?

But to be fair, I lost the chain of the thread prior to what Rocky had posted

Anyway back to the point as Ill just ramble, here is links to recent attacks on churches

Two Somerset churches vandalised in separate incidents

Reverend Debbi Turley of St Peter's Church in Taunton said the vandalism was "devastating" to find.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not terrorist attacks no, the first likely being a theft

The one EGB pointed to

Statue of Virgin Mary destroyed by vandals at Westminster diocese church - Catholic Herald

Statue of Virgin Mary destroyed by vandals at church in Westminster diocese

catholicherald.co.uk

The bigger picture in the world concerns me. My daughter in laws family have lost their homes despite working 50 odd years and paying taxes in India and are now receiving zero help and having to live in rural districts with family in overcrowded homes. So forgive me if I feel a bit raw when it appears open season on the church. Two or three years ago you could never have expected this to happen.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Back to the UK though, it would look like the Christian church has collapsed for sure, but that is a false picture. Yes church attendance is down by a huge number. That does not mean there is no Christians. In fact I would go so far as to say there might be more. What do I mean by that? Well for years people went to church because it was expected of them. They may have had little faith or none. The established church has vicars who do not even believe in God but want to be a help to others, or worse, enjoy the pay and house that comes with it.

But there are thousands of independent churches springing up where people who do want to explore their faith where they do this as a community of believers rather than relying on one minister/priest to meet all their spiritual and material needs. I have seen churches with as little as a dozen believers through to churches with over 1000 worshippers.

I have seen Emerald negatively mention fundamentalists. But you talk about fundamentalists as if they are all prone to violence and hate. They are not, in fact it would be better to label those who are as hate preachers, whatever their religious persuasion. A fundamentalist is merely someone who believes and sticks to what they believe to be true and does not change with the wind. Very few Christians nowadays I would describe as fundamentalist as they tend to veer from the scriptures in one way or another. But if someone has a particular belief why should they change just because others don't believe their truth? Some people believe it is ok to have a pint but not condoning drunkenness, others say it is better to not drink alcohol at first. But if they respect other peoples right to an opinion then who is being hurt? The fundamentalist in the pack is not harming anyone. But if he/she then says, drinking is evil, we need to stone/jail them then I would label them haters/hate preachers.

Thanks for the clarification, Davy.

BIG G

 

[egb_hibs]

@emerald green @BigG @1875

EGB has partly replied but I will try explain more. Firstly emerald, if you were having a bit of banter that's fine, I can still take a joke. Yes there is attacks on churches. I do not condone attacks on Mosques either, though if Germany felt that the Mosque they shut down was because of hate preachers then fair enough.
Anyhow it is not about Muslims, but anyone who vandalises/targets churches. All I was saying was the same thought must be for all and none of us should jump to a conclusion...yes I learned my lesson.

Another way churches have been desecrated appears to be when a church is taken over and becomes a Mosque, and Christian graves are dug up so their land doesn't become "desecrated". Now these coffins may be relocated with agreement with the council, I should hope they would? But has there been agreement with families?

But to be fair, I lost the chain of the thread prior to what Rocky had posted

Anyway back to the point as Ill just ramble, here is links to recent attacks on churches

Two Somerset churches vandalised in separate incidents

Reverend Debbi Turley of St Peter's Church in Taunton said the vandalism was "devastating" to find.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not terrorist attacks no, the first likely being a theft

The one EGB pointed to

Statue of Virgin Mary destroyed by vandals at Westminster diocese church - Catholic Herald

Statue of Virgin Mary destroyed by vandals at church in Westminster diocese

catholicherald.co.uk

The bigger picture in the world concerns me. My daughter in laws family have lost their homes despite working 50 odd years and paying taxes in India and are now receiving zero help and having to live in rural districts with family in overcrowded homes. So forgive me if I feel a bit raw when it appears open season on the church. Two or three years ago you could never have expected this to happen.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Back to the UK though, it would look like the Christian church has collapsed for sure, but that is a false picture. Yes church attendance is down by a huge number. That does not mean there is no Christians. In fact I would go so far as to say there might be more. What do I mean by that? Well for years people went to church because it was expected of them. They may have had little faith or none. The established church has vicars who do not even believe in God but want to be a help to others, or worse, enjoy the pay and house that comes with it.

But there are thousands of independent churches springing up where people who do want to explore their faith where they do this as a community of believers rather than relying on one minister/priest to meet all their spiritual and material needs. I have seen churches with as little as a dozen believers through to churches with over 1000 worshippers.

I have seen Emerald negatively mention fundamentalists. But you talk about fundamentalists as if they are all prone to violence and hate. They are not, in fact it would be better to label those who are as hate preachers, whatever their religious persuasion. A fundamentalist is merely someone who believes and sticks to what they believe to be true and does not change with the wind. Very few Christians nowadays I would describe as fundamentalist as they tend to veer from the scriptures in one way or another. But if someone has a particular belief why should they change just because others don't believe their truth? Some people believe it is ok to have a pint but not condoning drunkenness, others say it is better to not drink alcohol at first. But if they respect other peoples right to an opinion then who is being hurt? The fundamentalist in the pack is not harming anyone. But if he/she then says, drinking is evil, we need to stone/jail them then I would label them haters/hate preachers.

Davy I understand where you are coming from, and agree with much, but some specific points:

- fundamentalism, at least afaik, actually has no specific meaning outside Christianity and has become - as I think your point is - a label for extremists. My understanding is that its ‘genuine’ meaning is for a subset of Protestants who place sole authority in a literal reading of the Bible versus centuries of Church teachings. I personally think this is mistaken for many reasons central to which are a) the church predates the NT books which it produced some decades in and b) it misunderstands the priorities of ancient writers (and not just within Christianity) whose priority was conveying meaning / messages not a he said / she said / this after that journalistic account.

- yes, Christians are persecuted globally, by the same people that persecute everyone else, ie hard line Muslims and Communists and fascists. But while these tendencies are rising in the UK, they aren’t a physical threat as yet. You get church vandalism by Jakeys, atheists, fascists of the satanist stripe perhaps (though more a European thing), possibly Muslims. But you get vandalism everywhere - there are no mobs attacking Christian churches or people. Not yet anyway. You do get discrimination, but that’s not from Muslims, but our own home grown bams who again are a threat to people way beyond Christians.

- you make a good point about independent churches. I once did some back of a fag packet calculations that suggested there are more black Pentecostalists alone in the UK, than say, Gay people. You wouldn’t know it from the TV. Meanwhile I think church attendance still comfortably exceeds football attendance and people don’t generally think the latter ‘disappeared’.

That said, times are changing - practice of Catholicism has exceeded Protestantism by now in Scotland I expect (it was projected to this year and I suspect will have fulfilled that forecast even with many poles gone home, though all have been clobbered by lockdown), while Islam will become the most practised UK religion in due course if nothing changes, and it won’t be long. Both of these things reflect an imploded indigenous culture, with the imported Catholic cultures imploding one step behind. I don’t see this as being likely with Muslim populations.

As I used to note back when the Dawkins fans were in their pomp, yes Christianity is in decline in many places, all of which are themselves in overall decline. Christianity dying off is a canary in the mine for a wider die-off of the host society; and very possibly also the cause.

- the things you fear are probably in the post. But at the risk of being pompous, I don’t think exaggeration or conflation helps things. A rejection of truth in favour of narratives is integral to the post Christian, and thus inevitably post rational, era. Best not to join in I would argue, whatever your frustrations.

 

[egb_hibs]

Remarkable that we are in an era where the Torygraph reminds us of the difference between what Marx would have labelled the proletariat vs the lumpenproletariat.

Once suspects that across the aisle, where journos from working class backgrounds are few, they are variously, ‘the help’ and ‘the deplorables’

Britain is being pushed to the brink by official neglect of the white underclass

The idea that the riots were caused by working class anger at immigration is insulting and inaccurate

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[egb_hibs]

Well, yes. Still. Some people will pull their forelocks till they fall off.

Labour is gearing up for a moral crusade against the centre-Right

Labour is gearing up for a moral crusade that will shrink the field of acceptable opinion and stifle debate

www.telegraph.co.uk

“I see the consensus now is “prison works”. Four weeks ago, Labour said it would let people out of jail early; post-riot, the state has arrested over 700 suspects and threatened sentences of up to ten years. This is the short, sharp shock. It will be followed by a long war on free thinking.

The rioters deserve it, though the sentences are rather stringent. William Morgan, a 69-year-old with no previous, got 32 months for violent disorder and carrying a wooden bat. But then the point is to Send A Message: “join in with this nonsense, laddie, and you’re going down”.

Still it’s odd because I thought justice was blind and, until recently, comically lenient. Steal a Prada coat in peacetime, slap on the wrist; nick a computer monitor during a looting spree, you get 11 months. The establishment has swapped its milk for gall and inverted every axiom we thought it lived by. Crime is no longer the product of poverty. Riots no longer the cry of the oppressed. It turns out theft is not a comment on Liz Truss’s mini-Budget! Now offenders are malicious, far-Right thugs who must feel the full force of a law that hitherto operated at a fraction of its potential.

In Teesside, the lawyer of Steven Mailen, who joined the riot after a heady afternoon at the Bingo, asked the court to go easy on his client because he had experienced discrimination as a gay man. Nice try. It would’ve worked a week ago, but Mailen got 26 months.

Where were these stiff sentences when rapists went down? Where were the mass arrests when knife crime surged? Where was the intolerance for aggressive public behaviour when Jews felt intimidated? This two-tier approach is probably shaped by ideology. To much of our elite, the law is not only a tool for order but also for social engineering.”

 

[Davy]

Well, yes. Still. Some people will pull their forelocks till they fall off.

Labour is gearing up for a moral crusade against the centre-Right

Labour is gearing up for a moral crusade that will shrink the field of acceptable opinion and stifle debate

www.telegraph.co.uk

“I see the consensus now is “prison works”. Four weeks ago, Labour said it would let people out of jail early; post-riot, the state has arrested over 700 suspects and threatened sentences of up to ten years. This is the short, sharp shock. It will be followed by a long war on free thinking.

The rioters deserve it, though the sentences are rather stringent. William Morgan, a 69-year-old with no previous, got 32 months for violent disorder and carrying a wooden bat. But then the point is to Send A Message: “join in with this nonsense, laddie, and you’re going down”.

Still it’s odd because I thought justice was blind and, until recently, comically lenient. Steal a Prada coat in peacetime, slap on the wrist; nick a computer monitor during a looting spree, you get 11 months. The establishment has swapped its milk for gall and inverted every axiom we thought it lived by. Crime is no longer the product of poverty. Riots no longer the cry of the oppressed. It turns out theft is not a comment on Liz Truss’s mini-Budget! Now offenders are malicious, far-Right thugs who must feel the full force of a law that hitherto operated at a fraction of its potential.

In Teesside, the lawyer of Steven Mailen, who joined the riot after a heady afternoon at the Bingo, asked the court to go easy on his client because he had experienced discrimination as a gay man. Nice try. It would’ve worked a week ago, but Mailen got 26 months.

Where were these stiff sentences when rapists went down? Where were the mass arrests when knife crime surged? Where was the intolerance for aggressive public behaviour when Jews felt intimidated? This two-tier approach is probably shaped by ideology. To much of our elite, the law is not only a tool for order but also for social engineering.”

Maybe the politicians have ran out of pimps and need to have some released from prison whilst jailing idiot protesters. Lucky there is not much casuals at football anymore, they would probably get 20 years. Fine being tough on crime as the Tories were supposed to be, but inconsistency helps no one. Start with some high level corruption and work down instead of starting at the bottom, and the country might not be in the state it's in

 

[aggie]

Remarkable that we are in an era where the Torygraph reminds us of the difference between what Marx would have labelled the proletariat vs the lumpenproletariat.

Once suspects that across the aisle, where journos from working class backgrounds are few, they are variously, ‘the help’ and ‘the deplorables’

Britain is being pushed to the brink by official neglect of the white underclass

The idea that the riots were caused by working class anger at immigration is insulting and inaccurate

www.telegraph.co.uk

Be curious to read this, any ideas on how to bypass the paywall?

 

[Bangkokhibby]

maist of them are now pubs anyway davy

Or cash and carry's as I remember but that was many years ago....
Non typical response

 

[egb_hibs]

Be curious to read this, any ideas on how to bypass the paywall?

Try this Aggie

MSN