Should a dying continent switch funding from education to healthcare?

[egb_hibs]

....an example of the social political choices thrown up by our decline.

The admission, by that country's health minister, that Italy is a dying country seems to have prompted a little flurry of msm attention on the ultimate elephant in the European living room. All the piss and wind over current economic travails is so laughably beside the point given our studious refusal to confront the bigger picture on front of us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...g-despite-an-increasing-world-population.html

 

[vasco de gama]

....an example of the social political choices thrown up by our decline.

The admission, by that country's health minister, that Italy is a dying country seems to have prompted a little flurry of msm attention on the ultimate elephant in the European living room. All the piss and wind over current economic travails is so laughably beside the point given our studious refusal to confront the bigger picture on front of us.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...g-despite-an-increasing-world-population.html

Don't want to send your thread off in the wrong direction so I ask which particular elephant do you class as the ultimate one?

At first read I would say it was the lack of real widespread wealth creation in our economies to support any kind of social care but off the top of my head it could also be the euthanasia one, the abortion one, the selfish non-childbearing couples who don't pay enough taxes one, the not enough muslims being allowed into europe to have 30 kids amongst their 4 wives one or maybe something else?

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Don't want to send your thread off in the wrong direction so I ask which particular elephant do you class as the ultimate one?

At first read I would say it was the lack of real widespread wealth creation in our economies to support any kind of social care but off the top of my head it could also be the euthanasia one, the abortion one, the selfish non-childbearing couples who don't pay enough taxes one, the not enough muslims being allowed into europe to have 30 kids amongst their 4 wives one or maybe something else?

Aye. I thought he was getting at me again. No kids, more tax pish.

It still stinks.

And still amazes me how this concept is welcomed. By the "Married with Children" brigade......

We put in the same, take nowt out, and are happy to do so, but still more required and demanded.

Apparantly, my wife and I are still selfish. Still to grasp that one, even having read further into it.

 

[egb_hibs]

Don't want to send your thread off in the wrong direction so I ask which particular elephant do you class as the ultimate one?

At first read I would say it was the lack of real widespread wealth creation in our economies to support any kind of social care but off the top of my head it could also be the euthanasia one, the abortion one, the selfish non-childbearing couples who don't pay enough taxes one, the not enough muslims being allowed into europe to have 30 kids amongst their 4 wives one or maybe something else?

The ultimate elephant in the room is that we are ceasing to be.

 

[Zitellis Heid]

The ultimate elephant in the room is that we are ceasing to be.

Given our history, and our future created by it, is that such a bad thing? :coffee:

 

[egb_hibs]

Aye. I thought he was getting at me again. No kids, more tax pish.

It still stinks.

no more and no less than any call for people who earn more to pay more tax. By the way I am astonished you think anything on this subject is directed at you personally. That is, to be blunt, remarkably vain.

And still amazes me how this concept is welcomed. By the "Married with Children" brigade......

We put in the same, take nowt out, and are happy to do so, but still more required and demanded.

Apparantly, my wife and I are still selfish. Still to grasp that one, even having read further into it.

You don't put in anywhere like the same, economically, as someone earning the same but also raising the next generation. I don't put in as much as someone earning the same and producing more kids (under their own steam ). This is a simple empirical fact. Selfishness only comes into it depending on motivation, or in seeking an unfair share out of the system. Lots of people can't have kids - clearly their is no selfishness there, nor in people that devote their lives to the care of others or what have you. These people are among those most let down by those who choose not to a lifestyle choice, as they are particularly invested in the system continuing.

It really would be helpful to look at this other than from a navel gazing perspective. Welfare and European society as we know it is hurtling to an end because it isn't reproducing itself - which is in large part circular as it is enabled by the same welfare system. You or I aren't going to breed or not breed an answer to that, the real issue is at societal level - what is valued and thus incentivised.

Put beside our demographic reality, every other socio economic question is a side issue (not to mention obsessing over the likes of global warming eta).

It's also doubly circular however, as the extent to which people care is embedded in the problem - many don't care as long as things last long enough to see them out, and are less concerned about the disaster being handed to other people's children.

It's a problem affecting lots of countries that are advanced in secularisation; outside Europe, Japan is a step further down the line with swathes of people giving up not only on producing children, but even on having sex. Japan will be subsumed by the neighbours it long raced ahead of. What becomes of Europe time will tell.

- - - Updated - - -

Given our history, and our future created by it, is that such a bad thing? :coffee:

Good God, if ever anything was emblematic of the narcissistic nihilism that is taking us there, it is this; which also revels in its ignorance of the rest of the world.

 

[Zitellis Heid]

no more and no less than any call for people who earn more to pay more tax. By the way I am astonished you think anything on this subject is directed at you personally. That is, to be blunt, remarkably vain.

You don't put in anywhere like the same, economically, as someone earning the same but also raising the next generation. I don't put in as much as someone earning the same and producing more kids (under their own steam ). This is a simple empirical fact. Selfishness only comes into it depending on motivation, or in seeking an unfair share out of the system. Lots of people can't have kids - clearly their is no selfishness there, nor in people that devote their lives to the care of others or what have you. These people are among those most let down by those who choose not to a lifestyle choice, as they are particularly invested in the system continuing.

It really would be helpful to look at this other than from a navel gazing perspective. Welfare and European society as we know it is hurtling to an end because it isn't reproducing itself - which is in large part circular as it is enabled by the same welfare system. You or I aren't going to breed or not breed an answer to that, the real issue is at societal level - what is valued and thus incentivised.

Put beside our demographic reality, every other socio economic question is a side issue (not to mention obsessing over the likes of global warming eta).

It's also doubly circular however, as the extent to which people care is embedded in the problem - many don't care as long as things last long enough to see them out, and are less concerned about the disaster being handed to other people's children.

It's a problem affecting lots of countries that are advanced in secularisation; outside Europe, Japan is a step further down the line with swathes of people giving up not only on producing children, but even on having sex. Japan will be subsumed by the neighbours it long raced ahead of. What becomes of Europe time will tell.

- - - Updated - - -



Good God, if ever anything was emblematic of the narcissistic nihilism that is taking us there, it is this; which also revels in its ignorance of the rest of the world.

Carly Simon - Youre So Vain - YouTube

You REALLY believe that? Fuck me, it was a joke..... a poke of fun, if you will, not a poke AT fun, that would lead elswhere indeed....

Secondly, This stance you take is clearly Anti-Gay Marriage, Explain that away, you bigot. :coffee:

If 1970`s humour is still allowed, you therefore want a Poof-Tax.

As they can only give birth to Fecal Matter, (snigger) they must contribute more. Good luck with that.

So, explain why "Non-Poofy/Girl on Girl", or even true Biblical-type couples, (snigger) that don`t squat out Keanu`s and Rhianna`s, every 10 months, must pay more. Regardless of take-home pay.

Riddle me that, without being anti-gay, my friend? Eh?


Bigot. :coffee:

 

[aggie]

It's also doubly circular however, as the extent to which people care is embedded in the problem - many don't care as long as things last long enough to see them out, and are less concerned about the disaster being handed to other people's children.

I 100% agree that this is the case, and a fundamental problem, from people's personal lives all the way up to the meta-narrative of the world at large.

 

[egb_hibs]

Carly Simon - Youre So Vain - YouTube

You REALLY believe that? $#@! me, it was a joke..... a poke of fun, if you will, not a poke AT fun, that would lead elswhere indeed....

Secondly, This stance you take is clearly Anti-Gay Marriage, Explain that away, you bigot. :coffee:

If 1970`s humour is still allowed, you therefore want a Poof-Tax.

As they can only give birth to Fecal Matter, (snigger) they must contribute more. Good luck with that.

So, explain why "Non-Poofy/Girl on Girl", or even true Biblical-type couples, (snigger) that don`t squat out Keanu`s and Rhianna`s, every 10 months, must pay more. Regardless of take-home pay.

Riddle me that, without being anti-gay, my friend? Eh?


Bigot. :coffee:

Z, I havent a fecking clue what you're on about.

 

[Jack]

I'm still not sure how the title of this thread matches the article as such but I can see how it could lead to it.

It's not a simple choice of one or t'other but providing a welfare and health system that's smarter, more targeted, less wasteful ... and all the other government expenditures and incomes coming into play as well. And that goes for all the other western countries too.

On an income point western governments have been coerced into a position where big business avoid paying realistic tax in any country. Drawing them back into the tax paying fold would do wonders to address the cost of higher medical/social/welfare costs and might go some way to the population expanding naturally, if you know what I mean ;-) ;-).

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Z, I havent a fecking clue what you're on about.

And that makes 2 of us.

However, my point stands.

Bigot. :coffee:

I thought that this bigot smiley had been in the dark too long, for all of it`s power, it`s still as funny as fuck.



Still a great song tho` eh?

 

[Jack]

And to go further with the point [MENTION=7996]aggie[/MENTION] raised ...

Governments tend not to plan to much beyond their term of office!

 

[Zitellis Heid]

I'm still not sure how the title of this thread matches the article as such but I can see how it could lead to it.

It's not a simple choice of one or t'other but providing a welfare and health system that's smarter, more targeted, less wasteful ... and all the other government expenditures and incomes coming into play as well. And that goes for all the other western countries too.

On an income point western governments have been coerced into a position where big business avoid paying realistic tax in any country. Drawing them back into the tax paying fold would do wonders to address the cost of higher medical/social/welfare costs and might go some way to the population expanding naturally, if you know what I mean ;-) ;-).

And you Sir......... If you live long enough, can truly fuck clean off when it comes to "Book Advice"

Bigot. :coffee:

 

[Jack]

And you Sir......... If you live long enough, can truly fuck clean off when it comes to "Book Advice"

Bigot. :coffee:

Eh?

 

[egb_hibs]

I'm still not sure how the title of this thread matches the article as such but I can see how it could lead to it.

]its a paraphrase of a point made in the article, by the cia of all people

It's not a simple choice of one or t'other but providing a welfare and health system that's smarter, more targeted, less wasteful ... and all the other government expenditures and incomes coming into play as well. And that goes for all the other western countries too.

On an income point western governments have been coerced into a position where big business avoid paying realistic tax in any country. Drawing them back into the tax paying fold would do wonders to address the cost of higher medical/social/welfare costs and might go some way to the population expanding naturally, if you know what I mean ;-) ;-).

we can go on and on and on looking for someone / something / anything other than ourselves to blame, but it won't get us out of the hole we are in. All questions of tax are fripperies beside the point that we are not reproducing ourselves or the system.

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Eh?

Having a wee laugh Jacko......

 

[Jack]

]its a paraphrase of a point made in the article, by the cia of all people

we can go on and on and on looking for someone / something / anything other than ourselves to blame, but it won't get us out of the hole we are in. All questions of tax are fripperies beside the point that we are not reproducing ourselves or the system.

The suggestion is we're not, as a general population, reproducing because we're skint, so if we're not skint ...

 

[Zitellis Heid]

]its a paraphrase of a point made in the article, by the cia of all people

we can go on and on and on looking for someone / something / anything other than ourselves to blame, but it won't get us out of the hole we are in. All questions of tax are fripperies beside the point that we are not reproducing ourselves or the system.

Hope yer bairn had a nice macaroni `n cheese, perchance some ham as well.

I still fail to see where I fit in.

You ask me to provide fresh Reggiano also?

Damn me for not having that issue.

Tax me to the limit, indeed for the croutons in tomorrow`s soup, I`ll happily donate. And do.

But due to my non-existant child, you want truffles with that indeed?

Fuck off with that. It`s rather obsurd.

I have 3 cats. Kittykat from you?

Nah, thought not. :coffee:

It`s fucking relative, but wrong.

Now before you attacketh me, I have indeed catered for my "Infirmity" period, as has my childless wife, without your Kittykat input, yet, as dead as I will be. I will cost fuck all to whichever State you deem worth-while.

I`m still a Socialistic kinda guy, right?

Evidently, I`m selfish, where-as you buy school uniforms, I buy weekends away.

My/Your call? Way it is.

I still fire in the wedge, that doesn`t actually concern me, and pay further tax on whatever I choose to.....

But I don`t chuck enough into the bucket?

Can YOU actually hear you? :coffee:

 

[egb_hibs]

Hope yer bairn had a nice macaroni `n cheese, perchance some ham as well.

I still fail to see where I fit in.

You ask me to provide fresh Reggiano also?

Damn me for not having that issue.

Tax me to the limit, indeed for the croutons in tomorrow`s soup, I`ll happily donate. And do.

But due to my non-existant child, you want truffles with that indeed?

$#@! off with that. It`s rather obsurd.

I have 3 cats. Kittykat from you?

Nah, thought not. :coffee:

It`s $#@!ing relative, but wrong.

Now before you attacketh me, I have indeed catered for my "Infirmity" period, as has my childless wife, without your Kittykat input, yet, as dead as I will be. I will cost $#@! all to whichever State you deem worth-while.

I`m still a Socialistic kinda guy, right?

Evidently, I`m selfish, where-as you buy school uniforms, I buy weekends away.

My/Your call? Way it is.

I still fire in the wedge, that doesn`t actually concern me, and pay further tax on whatever I choose to.....

But I don`t chuck enough into the bucket?

Can YOU actually hear you? :coffee:

What are you on about? Save yourself the effort. We had another thread on this - the economics are simple, and they're not really up for debate, they're basic facts. The welfare system works by each generation of workers paying for those dependent on the system, and also doing all the actual work that needs done - people don't eat their benefits or pensions cheque it buys things that workers provide. Those dependents should mostly be pensioners (although now also includes all the fallout of expeirmentation in equally valid lifestyle choices). If new workers are not produced the whole system implodes, whatever taxes are paid.

Those producing new workers are making a contribution to the system with a production cost of 10k per head per year. It's a cold hard fact those people are making an economic contribution that those paying the same amount of tax they do, are not. It's also a case that mass childlessness by choice is a product of welfare, that couldn't exist any other way - in short it's enabled by the economic contribution of others. That's the last time I'm repeating this - its not difficult to get unless you don't want to get it.

All the stream of consciousness tosh in the world doesn't change it, and it's not that interesting. I'm not asking you to justify anything - though please don't let me hear complaints that people who earn more should pay more tax. You can't have it both ways.

Anyway, this thread is on a different topic, thanks.

- - - Updated - - -

The suggestion is we're not, as a general population, reproducing because we're skint, so if we're not skint ...

It's not the skint that can't afford it. And that's far from the only reason I reckon - indeed there's ample evidence it's not. Anyway the evidence of threads here is people aren't prepared to pay their share to help with the econokic side anyway.

Whatever the reason if we don't snap out of it then everything we know is going to go titsup.com

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Worst attempt at everything you preach to be by you, in favour of you, and stereo-typical pish from you, I have ever seen.

Here endeth my issue. And discusssion.

You deeply disappoint. On all counts.

I tried to learn. Learnt fuck all. :coffee:

 

[egb_hibs]

Worst attempt at everything you preach to be by you, in favour of you, and stereo-typical pish from you, I have ever seen.

Here endeth my issue. And discusssion.

You deeply disappoint. On all counts.

I tried to learn. Learnt $#@! all. :coffee:

you seem to be confusing stuff that is with opinions. This is how the welfare system works - it's not magic, it's a designed process. I'm not preaching - I'm stating facts.

The only opinion bit coming from me is the suggestion that people pay according to their discretionary income - a shockingly novel idea called progressive taxation.

Let's leave,it z - everyone will be happier with another thread blaming anything but things we are also part of.

Have a good evening fella