Scottish Independence - Aye or Naw?

[SG7nil]

It's a big aye for me too.

Why would anyone want to be governed from another country than their own? I just don't get it personally.

Imagine for one moment that Westminster didn't exist and the "British" Parliament was run from Cardiff for example.. do you really believe the English would stand for it?

I want Scottish MPs to concentrate on Scottish issues.. I was going to say that I don't care if they have a vote on English matters.. but I actually do.. because I don't want them wasting time voting on matters to serve their parliamentary party (which is inevitably Labour).. Frankly I can't understand why the Tories don't just let us go, as without our quota of Labour MPs they'd have a far better chance of getting a majority in an English Parliament!

Independent Scotland in Europe.. could certainly work for me!

 

[Andy O'Hara]

Aye, hope the Welsh get it too.

 

[McLeod1875]

Ayee, everyone has the right Nationality

 

[Haruki]

Couldn't give a f#ck?

 

[MacoHibeeexile]

Aye.
However I'd prefer if the Dutch or The Scandinavians sorted out the actual running of the country, and let us concentrate on drinking, fighting and coming up with jokes. And possibly getting better at fitba!

We could give them a hill in return.

 

[Brian]

Aye in principle. But it depends what it looked like in terms of the actual vote.

For example, I'm in favour of independence, but not if the Queen is still head of state. I'm not voting for something which is intrinsically anti-democratic, and is then embedded into our constitutional future.

The way ahead would be a vote on a Scottish Constitution defining exactly what form a newly independent Scotland would take.

I agree with you but it wouldn't make me vote no. There is, imo, next to no chance of an independent Scotland retaining the Queen as head of state for more than a few years. Otoh, I can't see the UK getting rid of the monarchy in the next 50.

 

[Smurf]

Why would anyone want to be governed from another country than their own? I just don't get it personally.

But we're not!

 

[superbam]

Still we can fly our flags and say "Freedom!!!" :roll:

Come on man as people have mentioned in this thread there are many people who favour independence and are not even nationalist. Its for political reasons, the belief that we have more chance of improving on the society we have as an independent country and has fuck all to do with flag waving etc. That belief may be naieve and theres many a valid argument to be made against it, but the attempt by some unionists to portray all those who favour independence as shallow braveheart-watching haggis munching xenophobes is pretty tiresome at this stage,.

 

[wee 162]

But we're not!

So you're just in favour of independence of the UK from Europe then...

 

[AlbaEire]

But we're not!

We are, ultimately we are governed by Westminster, London, England...

 

[Hampden_Hibby]

But we're not!

But we are in some very important issues as this list of Westminster reserved powers demonstrates.....

Constitutional matters
UK foreign policy
UK defence and national security
Fiscal and economic policy
Immigration and nationality
Energy: electricity, coal, oil, gas and nuclear energy
Common markets
Trade and industry, including competition and customer protection
Drugs law
Broadcasting
Elections and the registration and funding of political parties
Some aspects of transport, including aviation, railways, transport safety and regulation
Employment legislation and health and safety
Social security
Gambling and the National Lottery
Data protection
Firearms, extradition and emergency powers
Medicines, abortion, human fertilisation and embryology, genetics, xenotransplantation and vivisection
Equal opportunities
Treason, treason felony and misprision of treason
Regulation of time zones and Summer Time
Sea fishing: Regulation of sea fishing outside the Scottish zone (except in relation to Scottish fishing boats).
Weights and measures
Regulation of trade so far as involving weighing, measuring and quantities

 

[Forzahibs]

I honestly don't know which way i'd vote to be honest , maybe some of the teenage "ayes" could help me out , what would the benefits be ?

 

[Hampden_Hibby]

I honestly don't know which way i'd vote to be honest , maybe some of the teenage "ayes" could help me out , what would the benefits be ?

When you get your pay would you rather decide for yourself on what it's to be spent on, when it's to be spent and how much is to spent in what priority order?

Or would you rather give your pay to me and I'll spend it on you okay, don't worry....but I'll decide what aspect of your life I'll spend it. I'll decide how much to release and I'll decide what you get now and what you get later.

I might even take a wee cut. bandit

That's a major benefit. It's not always about extra things being in an independent Scotland that aren't here now. Sometimes it's just about having the complete power to use your resources today according to what you want, not what someone else wants for you.

Trident or hospital beds if you like.

Ooops I'm not a teenager!

 

[Forzahibs]

When you get your pay would you rather decide for yourself on what it's to be spent on, when it's to be spent and how much is to spent in what priority order?

Or would you rather give your pay to me and I'll spend it on you okay, don't worry....but I'll decide what aspect of your life I'll spend it. I'll decide how much to release and I'll decide what you get now and what you get later.

I might even take a wee cut. bandit

That's a major benefit. It's not always about extra things being in an independent Scotland that aren't here now. Sometimes it's just about having the complete power to use your resources today according to what you want, not what someone else wants for you.

Trident or hospital beds if you like.

Ooops I'm not a teenager!

But its always about what someone else wants for you , imagine being governed from Edinburgh and us all being worse off .
I honestly don't know enough to have an opinion so i'd have to rely on what a politician tells me and they've all proved how trustworthy they are recently .

 

[Hampden_Hibby]

But its always about what someone else wants for you , imagine being governed from Edinburgh and us all being worse off .
I honestly don't know enough to have an opinion so i'd have to rely on what a politician tells me and they've all proved how trustworthy they are recently .

Well, every time you walk out the house it's a gamble. If folk are put off by thinking that maybe we'd be worse off then of course, they should vote for the preservation of the union.

There are no cast iron guarantees in this life. Maybe I would vote independence and in 20 years time we are worse off due to unforeseen circumstances or under/over estimating.

Guess it all boils down to whether you are up for taking the leap into a new future or it's safety first and stick to what you have.

 

[Dub]

Couldn't give a f#ck?

A well thought out and well structured response their my good man:glassraise:

Come on man as people have mentioned in this thread there are many people who favour independence and are not even nationalist. Its for political reasons, the belief that we have more chance of improving on the society we have as an independent country and has fuck all to do with flag waving etc. That belief may be naieve and theres many a valid argument to be made against it, but the attempt by some unionists to portray all those who favour independence as shallow braveheart-watching haggis munching xenophobes is pretty tiresome at this stage,.

What he said

When you get your pay would you rather decide for yourself on what it's to be spent on, when it's to be spent and how much is to spent in what priority order?

Or would you rather give your pay to me and I'll spend it on you okay, don't worry....but I'll decide what aspect of your life I'll spend it. I'll decide how much to release and I'll decide what you get now and what you get later.

I might even take a wee cut. bandit

That's a major benefit. It's not always about extra things being in an independent Scotland that aren't here now. Sometimes it's just about having the complete power to use your resources today according to what you want, not what someone else wants for you.

Trident or hospital beds if you like.

Ooops I'm not a teenager!

Decent analogy HH. Which, not being a teenager either, I fully back.

To be honest Forza, we could sit and wring our hands worrying about what ails might befall our nation if we cut the [butchers] apron strings and just maintain the status quo [dont] or we could take a chance, actually belay that - we could take a calculated risk - go it alone and make all our own decisions whether they are correct ones or not. That would be independance and I welcome the day with open arms.

 

[Billythehibby]

HUge yes for me

 

[StevieC]

I understand where you're coming from mate, it is a totally undemocratic system and is something that I'd like to see dismantled one day.

Does anyone really think that the monarchy has any say in the running of the country?

Some might argue that the monarchy is one of the things that can differentiate us from many other countries, and it certainly helps to bring in a fair bit of cash to the economy thorugh tourism.

In recent years we have seen the monarchy getting pulled back in line with the requirement to pay tax and it is trying to be made a lot more self sufficient than the tax-payer funded institution it once was. I think the main gripe is down to the perceived image of the monarchy and how it is easy to make them a hate figure in a campaign for independence.

How much publicity, tourism, funding, etc., do you think St Andrews (and the srrounding area) received on the back of Prince Williams student career?


oh .. I'm a no.

 

[LunaCWsauzee]

100% Aye fae me.

For me it's simple, I want us to be able to make decisions on every matter ourselves. Saying no to sending troops off to be killed in unwinnable wars, saying no to nuclear weapons kept in Scotland.
If we had full decision making powers I do feel we would be better off.

 

[wee 162]

Does anyone really think that the monarchy has any say in the running of the country?

Some might argue that the monarchy is one of the things that can differentiate us from many other countries, and it certainly helps to bring in a fair bit of cash to the economy thorugh tourism.

In recent years we have seen the monarchy getting pulled back in line with the requirement to pay tax and it is trying to be made a lot more self sufficient than the tax-payer funded institution it once was. I think the main gripe is down to the perceived image of the monarchy and how it is easy to make them a hate figure in a campaign for independence.

How much publicity, tourism, funding, etc., do you think St Andrews (and the srrounding area) received on the back of Prince Williams student career?


oh .. I'm a no.

Cannae help but feel that it would bring in a few more tourists if you could actually open up Balmoral, Holyrood Palace, and Buckingham Palace to them rather than it being just three of the huge houses we pay for the Royals to live in... Versailles gets more than its' fair share of tourists and the French decapitated their royal family!

I don't think the monarchy has got any political power, but even symbolically it's absolutely ludicrous for someone to have any sort of rights to reign over people based on whose fanny they came out off.

 

[AlbaEire]

Does anyone really think that the monarchy has any say in the running of the country?

Some might argue that the monarchy is one of the things that can differentiate us from many other countries, and it certainly helps to bring in a fair bit of cash to the economy thorugh tourism.

In recent years we have seen the monarchy getting pulled back in line with the requirement to pay tax and it is trying to be made a lot more self sufficient than the tax-payer funded institution it once was. I think the main gripe is down to the perceived image of the monarchy and how it is easy to make them a hate figure in a campaign for independence.

How much publicity, tourism, funding, etc., do you think St Andrews (and the srrounding area) received on the back of Prince Williams student career?


oh .. I'm a no.

TBH, I don't care how much money the monarchy brings in. It is a symbol of privellage and subjugation. Also when Scotland is independent, why should the head of the British armed forces and the Church of England, be our head of state? Others might see it differently but I'd like Scotland to be a Socialist Republic after independence.

 

[Smurf]

When you get your pay would you rather decide for yourself on what it's to be spent on, when it's to be spent and how much is to spent in what priority order?

Or would you rather give your pay to me and I'll spend it on you okay, don't worry....but I'll decide what aspect of your life I'll spend it. I'll decide how much to release and I'll decide what you get now and what you get later.

I might even take a wee cut. bandit

That's a major benefit. It's not always about extra things being in an independent Scotland that aren't here now. Sometimes it's just about having the complete power to use your resources today according to what you want, not what someone else wants for you.

Trident or hospital beds if you like.

Ooops I'm not a teenager!

But we're already kind of doing that are we not? You give the impression that some English high command sit down to determine how to split the generated resources and seek to hammer us Scots into the ground by unfairly splitting it up....

The facts are that we have representatives from Scotland who sit in the House of Commons as MP's and it is THAT lot that one way or another formulate a government.

At the moment England who elected more Conservative MP's than Labour ones have a LABOUR government. Doesn't that kind of destroy your arguement that we don't actually have a say here in Scotland?

Oh and at the moment a huge amount of money (Doubled since 1999) is given to the Scottish Parliament (delivered by a Labour Government) where it can spend it where it likes. Decided by MSP's elected by the Scottish people.

It appears to me that us Scots have more control of our affairs than say our English neighbours down south. Never mind though these chip on the shoulder Scottish Nationalists will still perpetuate the 'Aren't we ever so hard done by' myth.

 

[NI Hibby]

I have a very strong view on this.....

Which is that, even though I absolutely adore Scotland and Embra is probably my favourite place/people on earth, it's 100% none of my business.

 

[Cavalier]

think i'd vote yes masell:smug:

 

[Weststandwanabe]

When you get your pay would you rather decide for yourself on what it's to be spent on, when it's to be spent and how much is to spent in what priority order?

Or would you rather give your pay to me and I'll spend it on you okay, don't worry....but I'll decide what aspect of your life I'll spend it. I'll decide how much to release and I'll decide what you get now and what you get later.

I might even take a wee cut. bandit

That's a major benefit. It's not always about extra things being in an independent Scotland that aren't here now. Sometimes it's just about having the complete power to use your resources today according to what you want, not what someone else wants for you.

Trident or hospital beds if you like.

Ooops I'm not a teenager!

Great post, well said !

 

[wee 162]

But we're already kind of doing that are we not? You give the impression that some English high command sit down to determine how to split the generated resources and seek to hammer us Scots into the ground by unfairly splitting it up....

The facts are that we have representatives from Scotland who sit in the House of Commons as MP's and it is THAT lot that one way or another formulate a government.

At the moment England who elected more Conservative MP's than Labour ones have a LABOUR government. Doesn't that kind of destroy your arguement that we don't actually have a say here in Scotland?

Oh and at the moment a huge amount of money (Doubled since 1999) is given to the Scottish Parliament (delivered by a Labour Government) where it can spend it where it likes. Decided by MSP's elected by the Scottish people.

It appears to me that us Scots have more control of our affairs than say our English neighbours down south. Never mind though these chip on the shoulder Scottish Nationalists will still perpetuate the 'Aren't we ever so hard done by' myth.

Sorry, but the funding cannot be spent on whatever we want. It has to pay for non-negotiable stuff like funding the NHS, education, etc etc. Infrastructure projects (such as the trams for example) have to be funded from a very tight budget and decisions have to be made about what gets done and what doesn't. But you have no control over huge spending decisions such as Trident or in fact any military procurement which do impact on the funding the Scottish Government get. You can try to direct some spending to specific areas, but can't do things like borrow to invest in something like renewables research and development or actually building it which is potentially hugely lucrative to us as a country.

 

[Stirlinghibee]

But we're already kind of doing that are we not? You give the impression that some English high command sit down to determine how to split the generated resources and seek to hammer us Scots into the ground by unfairly splitting it up....

The facts are that we have representatives from Scotland who sit in the House of Commons as MP's and it is THAT lot that one way or another formulate a government.

At the moment England who elected more Conservative MP's than Labour ones have a LABOUR government. Doesn't that kind of destroy your arguement that we don't actually have a say here in Scotland?

Oh and at the moment a huge amount of money (Doubled since 1999) is given to the Scottish Parliament (delivered by a Labour Government) where it can spend it where it likes. Decided by MSP's elected by the Scottish people.

It appears to me that us Scots have more control of our affairs than say our English neighbours down south. Never mind though these chip on the shoulder Scottish Nationalists will still perpetuate the 'Aren't we ever so hard done by' myth.

Labour MP's with English Constituencies - 287

Conservative MP's with English Constituencies -195

You are correct if you meant that the Tories had a higher % of the vote in England than Labour. Labour MP's are the easiest to elect as their core vote are concentrated in distinct geographical areas.

The English have always had devolution, as they have over 500 MP's of the 625 to vote on any law they want.

 

[Smurf]

Labour MP's with English Constituencies - 287

Conservative MP's with English Constituencies -195

You are correct if you meant that the Tories had a higher % of the vote in England than Labour. Labour MP's are the easiest to elect as their core vote are concentrated in distinct geographical areas.

The English have always had devolution, as they have over 500 MP's of the 625 to vote on any law they want.

?/em

However, :rollfloor That makes it even worse for the English. Shows that we rule them...!!!

 

[Dub]

I have a very strong view on this.....

Which is that, even though I absolutely adore Scotland and Embra is probably my favourite place/people on earth, it's 100% none of my business.

:applause:nicely put C.

think i'd vote yes masell:smug:

But you wouldnt be yersel ya daft galoot, can ye no read man:coffee:

 

[StevieC]

Cannae help but feel that it would bring in a few more tourists if you could actually open up Balmoral, Holyrood Palace, and Buckingham Palace to them rather than it being just three of the huge houses we pay for the Royals to live in...

But opening them up without a monarchy means they're just big houses.
That said, I'd agree to opening them up but I'd have them sectioned off into secure area's and have the Royal Family still living there. Without making it too comercialised (and thus losing the aura the Royal Family projects) opening up palaces for tourism could see the monarchy becoming a nice little business.

I don't think the monarchy has got any political power, but even symbolically it's absolutely ludicrous for someone to have any sort of rights to reign over people based on whose fanny they came out off.

You seem to have answered your own question.
It is ludicrous to reign over people based on a birthline but, as you've stated, the Royal Family does not actually have this power.
They are monarchs in title alone but it is this title, and the amount of promotion that they have carried out in the past, that makes them so attractive to tourists.

The Queen is getting on in her years and her ability to carry out the state duties, she used to be able to do, are somewhat limited these days. However I think that, with the right approach, the younger princes could be very useful in getting out and promoting the country and and an outside injection of money into the economy.

What do you think would excite tourists more, a visit from Gordon Brown (or whichever lying politician takes his place) or a visit from a real live King (assuming it's not Charles)?

With the correct changes implemented I can certainly see advantages in retaining a monarchy (assuming the independance route isn't taken).

 

[AngusB]

30 years ago yeah.
Pointless now.

this is my feeling too, but if the following is true and can promise the same kind of lucritive benefits to Scotland that Westminster feared would make us one of the richest small countries on earth 30 years ago, then I would vote aye

Aye. Especially given the massive new oil deposits recently found.

However, more importantly IMHO i'm proud of what the UK does at home. This is a good country to live in here in Scotland within the UK. Decent Education, Health, Social Services, Welfare etc etc available to all. It's not all perfect. Far from it but hey tell me where in the world it is? Tell me where in the world they have everything so so much better? Won't be easy... Would though be easy to show where things are far worse.

Switzerland is one of the few countries to have had the privlege of governing themselves for the past 1000 years, and minimum wage there is over ten quid an hour. :smilie_flagge2: Im fed up of living in a country where your wage barely covers living costs. Of course we can find things worse, but it shouldn't be considered foolish to hope for better.

And our education system is in rapid decline. Our degrees are worthless, our universities have the deficiencies of the English school system forced upon them in an effort to flood the UK with even more unemployed graduates and our social benefits are set up in a way that young girls look forward to becoming single mothers so they can get a free house. :banger:

 

[Hampden_Hibby]

But we're already kind of doing that are we not? You give the impression that some English high command sit down to determine how to split the generated resources and seek to hammer us Scots into the ground by unfairly splitting it up....

The facts are that we have representatives from Scotland who sit in the House of Commons as MP's and it is THAT lot that one way or another formulate a government.

No, not the English high command. The British high command. That's an important difference.

The fact we have quite a few representatives from Scotland at Westminster is meaningless in my analogy if the vast majority of those MP's are not free to pursue Scottish priorities because they have to adhere to the whip of a British, union supporting party and therefore presumably British priorities.

Don't try and kid me that the 52 Scottish unionist MP's at Westminster will always vote in reserved matters for what's best for Scotland even when it's not best for Britain or is not in line with what Brown or Cameron want.

 

[joe breezy]

Not sure, changed my mind a few times over this.

Have been very against it and sometimes a wee bit for it.

Live in England now, feel British, would be weird to feel completely foreign in England although London is an international city anyway.