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Our chances of ever winning the Scottish Cup..

Greenmachine

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....are diminishing every year admittedly, but for me anyway, they depend entirely on getting to as many finals as we can and playing against a team in the final whom we are either on a level with in terms of ability, or better than. The two consecutive Scottish Cup Finals we have just reached show that we are at long last a decent cup side and Pat Fenlon seems to have the ability as a manager to get us through awkward cup-ties, with the exception of the Queen of the South League Cup tie which he just used to give fringe players a run out. Last year, by fair means or foul, we were up against a superior side who showed on the day they were a superior side, just as they had done in the derbies throughout that season. Yes, they had cheated and many of those players and their manager they couldn't afford, but there they were and there we were. We were a team made up of cast-offs, loanees, and losers and we had just escaped relegation by a ba'hair. For me, we were never going to win that game. This year we were up against Celtic who never lose Scottish Cup Finals at Hampden and bossed that game completely yesterday intimidating our young players and showing all their big-match experience. I didn't think Hibs played badly at all yesterday, we played as well as we were allowed to play IMO but the game was over when Celtic scored the first goal within 7 minutes.

Not for us it would appear the luck of the likes of Hearts and Dundee United, playing teams like Gretna and Ross County in the Scottish Cup Final, or even Kilmarnock a few years ago playing Falkirk. Whenever Hibs reach a Scottish Cup Final, and we have only reached 5 in my 42 years of being a Hibs fan, we almost always end up playing an Old Firm team, or last year when we were a poor team up against a fired up gunts side with better players than us. We just have to strive now to keep improving the team year after year and keep on trying to get to more Scottish Cup Finals, and who knows we may end up getting to another Scottish Cup Final soon hopefully against a team we have a realistic chance of beating. If we did that, i'm sure we would win.
 
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While The Huns are out the SPL we will never have a better chance of winning it.
Yesterday we were unlucky that we caught Celtic just as they were hitting top gear again. If the game had been a few weeks ago when they were looking tired and uninterested we might have won.
Next year and the year after is a golden opportunity for all the over SPL teams to win the cup.
 
This 112 years thing is a bit of a red herring, but there are other reasons for pessimism.

A red herring - although, as below, an important one - because until they started buying them, hearts had only won it once since 1906, while Dundee United had never won it at all till recently - and lost a lot of finals in their pomp. In short, for most of history its been dominated by the OF even more so than these days, where other clubs win more regularly.

What makes me despondent is our historical record in finals, which is unmatchably bad. We've been in more than the gunts, but our record of winning them is appalling - and that is a constant through history, through famous five and tornadoes.

There is a weakness in the psychology of the club, evident in our derby record, and in cup finals. It seems to get transmitted from generation to generation. Unless that is resolved our only hope in the SC is for a soft final - and another thing Hibs are not, is lucky. The red herring comes into play here - it plays to the mental fragility of Hibs, and puts us up against it in away the just as hard to win LC doesn't have the same affect.

I dont expect to see us win it unless we get that favourable final and thats most likely while hearts and rangers are gubbed; even then we may not do it unless we fix our mindset. Dominating a weakened gunts is the first step here.
 
There is a weakness in the psychology of the club, evident in our derby record, and in cup finals. It seems to get transmitted from generation to generation.

Dominating a weakened gunts is the first step here.

I think you are on the money here.

When Hibs were utterly dominant in this fixture (i.e. late 1960's until early 1980's) the team reached- I think- 5 cup finals. We did only win once, but we lost most of these to an imperious Celtic team.

I agree with you and think establishing dominance in the derby can lead to more opportunities for success in the cups in particular because the "psychology" of the club would be strengthened by this.

I liked what Ross Caldwell had to say a couple of weeks ago before his winner at Tynecastle- he had no fear of Hearts and enjoyed playing, and scoring, against them. He talked the talk but, crucially, walked the walk as well. If he is representative of the calibre of young player we have coming through then that is a good thing.

P
 
Thats us reached 3 Scottish Cup finals in the last 12 years, imo we keep that average up and we'll have our day soon. Incidently, has any other team outwith the bigot brothers played in more finals than us since the turn of the millenium?
 
....are diminishing every year admittedly, but for me anyway, they depend entirely on getting to as many finals as we can and playing against a team in the final whom we are either on a level with in terms of ability, or better than. The two consecutive Scottish Cup Finals we have just reached show that we are at long last a decent cup side and Pat Fenlon seems to have the ability as a manager to get us through awkward cup-ties, with the exception of the Queen of the South League Cup tie which he just used to give fringe players a run out. Last year, by fair means or foul, we were up against a superior side who showed on the day they were a superior side, just as they had done in the derbies throughout that season. Yes, they had cheated and many of those players and their manager they couldn't afford, but there they were and there we were. We were a team made up of cast-offs, loanees, and losers and we had just escaped relegation by a ba'hair. For me, we were never going to win that game. This year we were up against Celtic who never lose Scottish Cup Finals at Hampden and bossed that game completely yesterday intimidating our young players and showing all their big-match experience. I didn't think Hibs played badly at all yesterday, we played as well as we were allowed to play IMO but the game was over when Celtic scored two quick easy goals within the first 11 minutes.

Not for us it would appear the luck of the likes of Hearts and Dundee United, playing teams like Gretna and Ross County in the Scottish Cup Final, or even Kilmarnock a few years ago playing Falkirk. Whenever Hibs reach a Scottish Cup Final, and we have only reached 5 in my 42 years of being a Hibs fan, we almost always end up playing an Old Firm team, or last year when we were a poor team up against a fired up gunts side with better players than us. We just have to strive now to keep improving the team year after year and keep on trying to get to more Scottish Cup Finals, and who knows we may end up getting to another Scottish Cup Final soon hopefully against a team we have a realistic chance of beating. If we did that, i'm sure we would win.

They scored in the 7th minute and the 30th minute in the first half :dunno: I agree with the rest though.
 
When the hibs go up to lift the scottish cup, I'll be deed :(
 
Thats us reached 3 Scottish Cup finals in the last 12 years, imo we keep that average up and we'll have our day soon. Incidently, has any other team outwith the bigot brothers played in more finals than us since the turn of the millenium?

and 5 scots cup finals in my lifetime and won.... but yeah law of averages says we should win 1 eventually, just hopefully im still alive.
 
They scored in the 7th minute and the 30th minute in the first half :dunno: I agree with the rest though.

Apologies Dub, ....It was the early goal in the 7th minute which sounded the death knell for our chances. We had to avoid an early goal and keep it level till at least half-time to have any chance of causing a shock result and we failed to do it. The second goal just made it certain they were going to win.
 
I'm going against the flow here but

I think we've been dreadfully unlucky to come up against the old firm and an overfunded Hearts team in our last 5 finals. Without doubt it was pretty poor to go 79 to 2001 without a final, and three semis 2005-2007 should have produced at least a final for an exceptional group of players.

We were rubbish at semi finals for years - now Fenlon has changed that, and I do wonder what would have happened had we played Celtic in the semi rather than the final.

The 111 years thing is a red herring, or maybe a red albatross. One factor in it is our appalling Scottish Cup Record against Celtic with only 1 win since 1902 - our record against everyone else is fine. We've beat Celtic twice out of our last 3 meetings in the league cup in nearly 30 years. If we'd replicated that in the Scottish...

What I seen yesterday was very good in a lot of ways - and Fenlon isn't to blame for 111 years, and neither are the players, Rod Petrie or Tom Farmer. They were all desperate to deliver for us, and they will.

We're superbly placed now to kick on
 
Thats us reached 3 Scottish Cup finals in the last 12 years, imo we keep that average up and we'll have our day soon. Incidently, has any other team outwith the bigot brothers played in more finals than us since the turn of the millenium?

I think we've played at Hampden in semis/finals 14 times since the turn of the millennium.
 
There is a weakness in the psychology of the club, evident in our derby record<snip>...even then we may not do it unless we fix our mindset. Dominating a weakened gunts is the first step here.

And almost un-noticed we've gone unbeaten in five games since doomsday, knocking them out of the cup in the process. Big tick for Fenlon and the players here. We're superbly placed to dominate the fixture for some time to come if the shi'ite bags hang around long enough to let us.
 
I'm going against the flow here but

I think we've been dreadfully unlucky to come up against the old firm and an overfunded Hearts team in our last 5 finals. Without doubt it was pretty poor to go 79 to 2001 without a final, and three semis 2005-2007 should have produced at least a final for an exceptional group of players.

We were rubbish at semi finals for years - now Fenlon has changed that, and I do wonder what would have happened had we played Celtic in the semi rather than the final.

The 111 years thing is a red herring, or maybe a red albatross. One factor in it is our appalling Scottish Cup Record against Celtic with only 1 win since 1902 - our record against everyone else is fine. We've beat Celtic twice out of our last 3 meetings in the league cup in nearly 30 years. If we'd replicated that in the Scottish...

What I seen yesterday was very good in a lot of ways - and Fenlon isn't to blame for 111 years, and neither are the players, Rod Petrie or Tom Farmer. They were all desperate to deliver for us, and they will.

We're superbly placed now to kick on

Superb post...agree completely
 
Put the club crest on the stadium and we will win that damn cup.




It's worth a try innit :pullhair:
 
This 112 years thing is a bit of a red herring, but there are other reasons for pessimism.

A red herring - although, as below, an important one - because until they started buying them, hearts had only won it once since 1906, while Dundee United had never won it at all till recently - and lost a lot of finals in their pomp. In short, for most of history its been dominated by the OF even more so than these days, where other clubs win more regularly.

What makes me despondent is our historical record in finals, which is unmatchably bad. We've been in more than the gunts, but our record of winning them is appalling - and that is a constant through history, through famous five and tornadoes.

There is a weakness in the psychology of the club, evident in our derby record, and in cup finals. It seems to get transmitted from generation to generation. Unless that is resolved our only hope in the SC is for a soft final - and another thing Hibs are not, is lucky. The red herring comes into play here - it plays to the mental fragility of Hibs, and puts us up against it in away the just as hard to win LC doesn't have the same affect.

I dont expect to see us win it unless we get that favourable final and thats most likely while hearts and rangers are gubbed; even then we may not do it unless we fix our mindset. Dominating a weakened gunts is the first step here.

But in the just as hard to win League Cup, we've had 2 soft finals. So it's possible.
 
The question of Hibs winning the Cup is little to do with hooddoos/motivation/bottle but more to do with who you are likely to play in the final. Here is Celtc's recent cup final record against teams other than 'Scotland's Shame 2012'' whose record I guess will be much the same.

196465 :Celtc 32 Dunfermline Athletic
196667 :Celtc 20 Aberdeen
196970:Celtc 1-3 Aberdeen
197172 :Celtc 61 Hibernian
197374:Celtc 30 Dundee United
197475:Celtc 31 Airdrieonians
198485:Celtc 21 Dundee United
198788 :Celtc 21 Dundee United
198990:Celtc 0-0 Aberdeen (won on pens)
199495:Celtc 10 Airdrieonians
200001:Celtc 30 Hibernian
200304 :Celtc 31 Dunfermline Athletic
200405:Celtc 10 Dundee United
200607:Celtc 10 Dunfermline Athletic
201011:Celtc 30 Motherwell
201213:Celtc 30 Hibernian

That is 16 finals and only Aberdeen have managed to win. Sadly when you come to a final then you inevitably come up against a completely foccussed and motivated 'Celtc' team and your chances really are very limited as they by defintion always have the better players.:dunno:

We probably have a better chance v 'Scotland's Shame 2012' as they lose more often (Dundee Utd/Hearts/Aberdeen) in finals but even that is a long shot.:dunno:Our best hope obviously is these teams knocking each other out in earlier rounds or somebody taking them in a semi but that is so much stating the bleedin obvious.:dunno:

Well done to the Hibs players and officials and Pat Fenlon as it has been a real roller coaster of a season which we ended overall on a definite up rather than the down.:thumbgrin

I dont quite buy totally into this loud and proud glorious happy singsong when you have just been gubbed in a cup final but it was still very good to be a Hibs fan on Sunday and to see the bond between the players/manager and supporters reastablished after the Calderwood trauma and last years awful cup final and so many neutral commentators were so impressed by our support.:thumbgrin

Next season will involve another complete restructuring of the team as the loan players and out of contract players leave but we have certainly made decent progress and have the nucleus of a decent team with the emergence of some very good young players.:thumbgrin

The manager has quite a task to rebuild the team in such a short period of time but that is the nature of the job and to reach two cup finals and achieve Europe and put together an unbeaten 5 game run against Hearts is real achievement for which Pat Fenlon deserves credit.:thumbgrin

I don't know about the players but I need a football rest so enjoy the summer fellow bouncers as it has been yet another great season for cheery banter/arguments/petty point scoring and annoying statistical drivel and that's just me.:wink:
 
I think we've played at Hampden in semis/finals 14 times since the turn of the millennium.

Semi Final/Finals since 1975

Hampden

W 11/4/1979 SC SF Aberdeen 2 1
D 12/5/1979 SC F Rangers 0 0
D 16/5/1979 SC F Rangers 0 0
L 28/5/1979 SC F Rangers 2 3
L 12/4/1980 SC SF Celtic 0 5
L 27/10/1985 LC F Aberdeen 0 3
L 16/4/1989 SC SF Celtic 1 3
W 25/9/1991 LC SF Rangers 1 0
W 27/10/1991 LC F Dunfermline Athletic 2 0
L 9/4/2000 SC SF Aberdeen 1 2
W 14/4/2001 SC SF Livingston 3 0
L 26/5/2001 SC F Celtic 0 3
L 6/2/2002 LC SF Ayr United 0 1
W 5/2/2004 LC SF Rangers 1 1
L 14/3/2004 LC F Livingston 0 2
L 9/4/2005 SC SF Dundee United 1 2
L 2/4/2006 SC SF Heart of Midlothian 0 4
W 18/3/2007 LC F Kilmarnock 5 1
D 15/4/2007 SC SF Dunfermline Athletic 0 0
L 24/4/2007 SC SF Dunfermline Athletic 0 1
W 14/4/2012 SC SF Aberdeen 2 1
L 19/5/2012 SC F Heart of Midlothian 1 5
W 13/4/2013 SC SF Falkirk 4 3
L 26/5/2013 SC F Celtic 0 3

Dens Park

L 13/12/1978 LC SF Aberdeen 0 1
L 5/4/1986 SC SF Aberdeen 0 3

Ibrox

D 7/4/1995 SC SF Celtic 0 0
L 11/4/1995 SC SF Celtic 1 3

Parkhead

L 24/10/1993 LC F Rangers 1 2

Tynecastle

L 3/4/1993 SC SF Aberdeen 0 1
W 21/9/1993 LC SF Dundee United 1 0
W 31/1/2007 LC SF St Johnstone 3 1

In addition there was the two-legged semi final against Rangers in 1985
 
Have you not missed out a Scottish Cup semi v Aberdeen in 1993 at Tynecastle?
 
The manager has quite a task to rebuild the team in such a short period of time but that is the nature of the job and to reach two cup finals and achieve Europe and put together an unbeaten 5 game run against Hearts is real achievement for which Pat Fenlon deserves credit.:thumbgrin

I'd agree with that, and he's the first manager since Collins to blood a number of youngsters, which by my reckoning means he's going to be well placed next season as Forster, Handling, Caldwell and Harris are going to have bigger parts to play. I was especially impressed by Forster yesterday who I thought was our best defender. Very bold of Fenlon to start him in such a big game.
 
Have you not missed out a Scottish Cup semi v Aberdeen in 1993 at Tynecastle?

You're right and I've added it in. I don't quite know where that went when I copied and pasted! (I'd stuck it down at Dens - doh!)
 
One final post on the subject: This is the list of teams to make cup finals in the last 30 years:

Scottish Cup:

Celtic 14 finals 10 winners
Rangers 12 finals 9 winners
Dundee United 7 finals 2 winners
Aberdeen 5 finals 3 winners
Heart of Midlothian 5 finals 3 winners
Hibernian 3 finals 0 winners
Motherwell 2 finals 1 winners
Airdrieonians 2 finals 0 winners
Falkirk 2 finals 0 winners
Dunfermline Athletic 2 finals 0 winners
Kilmarnock 1 finals 1 winners
St. Mirren 1 finals 1 winners
Ross County 1 finals 0 winners
Gretna 1 finals 0 winners
Dundee 1 finals 0 winners
Queen of the South 1 finals 0 winners

League Cup

Rangers 18 finals 16 winners
Celtic 12 finals 5 winners
Aberdeen 7 finals 3 winners
Hibernian 5 finals 2 winners
Kilmarnock 3 finals 1 winners
Dundee United 3 finals 0 winners
Heart of Midlothian 2 finals 0 winners
Dunfermline Athletic 2 finals 0 winners
St. Mirren 2 finals 1 winners
Raith Rovers 1 finals 1 winners
Livingston 1 finals 1 winners
Motherwell 1 finals 0 winners
St. Johnstone 1 finals 0 winners
Ayr United 1 finals 0 winners
Dundee 1 finals 0 winners

Totals:

Rangers 30 finals 25 winners
Celtic 26 finals 15 winners
Aberdeen 12 finals 6 winners
Dundee United 10 finals 2 winners
Hibernian 8 finals 2 winners
Heart of Midlothian 7 finals 3 winners
Kilmarnock 4 finals 2 winners
Dunfermline Athletic 4 finals 0 winners
St. Mirren 3 finals 2 winners
Motherwell 3 finals 1 winners
Airdrieonians 2 finals 0 winners
Falkirk 2 finals 0 winners
Dundee 2 finals 0 winners
Raith Rovers 1 finals 1 winners
Livingston 1 finals 1 winners
Ross County 1 finals 0 winners
Gretna 1 finals 0 winners
Queen of the South 1 finals 0 winners
St. Johnstone 1 finals 0 winners
Ayr United 1 finals 0 winners
 
Celtic are really poor in the League cup :shock:

Scottish cup they are no nonsense though, no surprise really.
 
I've said all along our best chance of winning the Scottish cup was season 2006/2007 when a rank rotten Celtic just managed to beat Dunfermline 1-0 in the final and this was the Dunfermline team that beat us midweek semi replay thanks to Hogg giving away that stupid penalty, i'm positive if we had taken care of the Pars that night we would have beaten Celtic in the final.
 
I personally think that far from our chances diminishing, I think we have more of a chance than previous years. After last year we have gone unbeaten in 5 derbies, won through a very difficult cup draw this year to get to the final.2 cup finals back to back is an achievement in itself and if we can get back again next year we wont be moaning. Onwards and upwards for us I think.
 
I'm going against the flow here but

I think we've been dreadfully unlucky to come up against the old firm and an overfunded Hearts team in our last 5 finals. Without doubt it was pretty poor to go 79 to 2001 without a final, and three semis 2005-2007 should have produced at least a final for an exceptional group of players.

We were rubbish at semi finals for years - now Fenlon has changed that, and I do wonder what would have happened had we played Celtic in the semi rather than the final.

The 111 years thing is a red herring, or maybe a red albatross. One factor in it is our appalling Scottish Cup Record against Celtic with only 1 win since 1902 - our record against everyone else is fine. We've beat Celtic twice out of our last 3 meetings in the league cup in nearly 30 years. If we'd replicated that in the Scottish...

What I seen yesterday was very good in a lot of ways - and Fenlon isn't to blame for 111 years, and neither are the players, Rod Petrie or Tom Farmer. They were all desperate to deliver for us, and they will.

We're superbly placed now to kick on

Tried to like this, but my 'like' button isnae working.:thumbgrin
Completely agree.
 
On a positive note we are one year closer to winning it :hmmm
 
....are diminishing every year admittedly, but for me anyway, they depend entirely on getting to as many finals as we can and playing against a team in the final whom we are either on a level with in terms of ability, or better than. The two consecutive Scottish Cup Finals we have just reached show that we are at long last a decent cup side and Pat Fenlon seems to have the ability as a manager to get us through awkward cup-ties, with the exception of the Queen of the South League Cup tie which he just used to give fringe players a run out. Last year, by fair means or foul, we were up against a superior side who showed on the day they were a superior side, just as they had done in the derbies throughout that season. Yes, they had cheated and many of those players and their manager they couldn't afford, but there they were and there we were. We were a team made up of cast-offs, loanees, and losers and we had just escaped relegation by a ba'hair. For me, we were never going to win that game. This year we were up against Celtic who never lose Scottish Cup Finals at Hampden and bossed that game completely yesterday intimidating our young players and showing all their big-match experience. I didn't think Hibs played badly at all yesterday, we played as well as we were allowed to play IMO but the game was over when Celtic scored two quick easy goals within the first 11 minutes.

Not for us it would appear the luck of the likes of Hearts and Dundee United, playing teams like Gretna and Ross County in the Scottish Cup Final, or even Kilmarnock a few years ago playing Falkirk. Whenever Hibs reach a Scottish Cup Final, and we have only reached 5 in my 42 years of being a Hibs fan, we almost always end up playing an Old Firm team, or last year when we were a poor team up against a fired up gunts side with better players than us. We just have to strive now to keep improving the team year after year and keep on trying to get to more Scottish Cup Finals, and who knows we may end up getting to another Scottish Cup Final soon hopefully against a team we have a realistic chance of beating. If we did that, i'm sure we would win.
I swear to god it has to be removing the harp from the west stand.. It's the curse !
 
I swear to god it has to be removing the harp from the west stand.. It's the curse !

Bollox, but just so you can prove your point - When was the harp removed from the West Stand [Clue: If the answer is anything other than 1902-03 season then I reserve the right to go back to my original statement].
 
I swear to god it has to be removing the harp from the west stand.. It's the curse !

I seem to remember being told this is the reason for a jinx when I was a boy. A lot of rubbish though, it's simply at times we have been not good enough or unlucky.

A lot of people talking about mentality, but then that doesn't explain why we have won League Cups.
 
I've said all along our best chance of winning the Scottish cup was season 2006/2007 when a rank rotten Celtic just managed to beat Dunfermline 1-0 in the final and this was the Dunfermline team that beat us midweek semi replay thanks to Hogg giving away that stupid penalty, i'm positive if we had taken care of the Pars that night we would have beaten Celtic in the final.

...and the referee was?
http://youngpars.co.uk/story.php?ID=2517&CATEGORY=7-Match%20Reports
 

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