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Multiple merged threads about Daily Retard articles. by Duncan and Cowan on the SCF

Davy

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Not one for buying the record, however wanted something to read with a cuppa and the evening news wasn't in. Anyway just read an article by Colin Duncan..(yeh whoever he is). Wondered what other bouncers views were on it.

He states that there is something wrong with the mentality of players..and in particular manager Fenlon when t hey are content to be walked over by Celtic. He is particularly critical that no defenders held their hand up individually but just said we defend as a unit and share the responsibility. Only LG gets any credit as he aparantly was hurting too much to come out for a post match interview.

Ok so lets look at some things. Yes I do believe that over the last few years Hibs have had a poor us attitude and seem content at times with mediocracy. While it was difficult to compete with our city rivals and the gruesome twosome from Glasgow, there have been times when we use money as an excuse for losses. Yes we may have inferior players but lack of money should never be an excuse for lack of endeavour and grit. But on Sunday I am not convinced this was the case and that I believe is why the Hibs supporters stayed at the end. Yes we lost two poor goals but the players did seem to give a damn, but they were simply outplayed at times. We talk a lot about Hearts wage bill but Celtic can pretty much buy and pay whoever they want (real top players excluded). They take the best players from Scottish teams and cream off good talent from England while teams like Hibs often rely on journeymen mixed with some youth who end up leaving us well before their prime years. We were beaten but I saw the players giving what they had, which sadly wasn't enough as there is a real lack of talent at Hibs right now.

Perhaps we are also guilty of expecting too much too soon. We got off to a flyer and may'be that was part of our downfall. Expectations rose through the roof but long before halfway through the season the cracks were there for all to see. I am not in the least surprised Celtics two first goals were from crosses, we have been murder at defending them all season and that needs sorted. But we have also been a poor poor team for a lot of seasons now, and yet qualified for two SC finals in two seasons.

Yes St.Mirren beat celtic in the LC, but St,Mirren have had more time to gel together and it is always easier playing celtic earlier in the season, as the 1-0 win at ER proves. They also rested the last few weeks while we were slogging it out for 7th place and much credit to the players for managing the feat considering how we usually finish seasons. But progress has been made. PF has also learned his lesson and changed his formation and in recent weeks given youth a chance.

I am seriously doubting I'll ever live to see a SC win, but I do see improvement and we need to keep moving forward. We have made our way a lot of semis and finals in the last 20-30 years in both competitions, but then seem to break teams up and have to start again. We need consistency both with the manager and players. If we are guilty of complacency then that has to change and I do not believe PF is under any illusion that progress has to be made year on year until we reach a level of consistency with no fear. But lets also be realistic. Celtic have zero debts and money coming in from all angles. They must have made over 10m from the Euro campaign alone. How much to Hibs pull in during a whole season? But as I said we need to continue progressing and I hope Tom Farmer and others can get some serious investments coming our way. But the first thing is we have to show we are a team wanting to win. The news that players are opting for teams such as St Mirren and St Johnstone etc is sad indeed. Hibs were a big enough team in the past getting Gordon Smiths signature from under hearts nose, when he was a self confessed Jambo and keeping the likes of Stanton way longer than we had any right to. But times have changed and money is king, but we do need to continue to show desire and ambition to make the right signings.

The fans this season have made a massive contribution to the atmosphere and sense of family team. This also needs to continue and hopefully we will not get to the point where we go quiet when we are winning simply because we expect to, but that a winning team will make us louder and happier.
 
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Bofahibee

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I don't think we do but I think we are overly aware of the realities of Scottish football. Certainly Pat didn't seem to set the team out to beat Celtic in the pre-split game.

But I think there are players in the squad who won't be intimidated and who play with a bit of abandon which is a joy to watch.

I think we're all heading in the right direction.
 

wee 162

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I don't think we were massively outplayed tbh. We lost the first goal at a time when we were on top. The first two goals were from brutally bad defending, and admittedly two exceptional crosses. Celtic weren't exactly cutting us open at will, but they were more clinical than we were with the chances they had. We just couldn't break them down when we were having a good spell in the second half cause they defended well.

One thing which I haven't seen mentioned was Griffiths chance in the first half where he went round Forster but ended up without the angle to put it in. Could have quite easily went down under Forsters challenge which would have gave us a penalty and playing 10 men including their reserve keeper for the next 50 or so minutes... Fine margins between "accepting mediocrity" and "comeback kings".
 

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two things

...one mans mediocracy is another mans , well , more than mediocracy....and mediocracy to excellence has a lot of notches on the way

other thing

...this seems a slightly guntly argument that i've seen spouted on social media (not a dig at the OP), but to me the argument isn't sustainable unless proven at a level more granular than a brash generalisation.

for example - is it accepting of mediocracy to offer a contract to lewis stevenson?, i hate to single him out as i like him but he hasn't fulfilled his potential....to answer the question in that case no, his consistency and versitility have a place in a progressive SPL club.

OK one last thing, I don't think Pat Fenlon wants to stagnate it is all about realism and progression.
 

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The ambition of the fans is not matched on the pitch. What I mean by that is we need quality to match the energy and drive the team showed on sunday. What we need is some quality quality players. Not any old rubbish that comes along on the free market.

Fenlons tactics are to blame for Sunday in my opinion. I think Wotherspoon should have at least been on the bench as on a wide pitch he would have been useful. Doyle was awful as per and I also thought Thompson had a bad game.
 

hibs1986

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To be honest, I think it's a bit of an argument going nowhere. I think the players and management were absolutely up for it on Saturday, but were beaten by the better team on the day. As Wee 162 says, with a slight tweak of events, it might have gone differently.
I suppose you could say that Hearts are not accepting mediocrity, by actively choosing not to live within the same stratosphere as sustainability, but hopefully that's going to blow up in their faces fairly soon.
I think we're heading in the right direction. It's going to take time, and there will be set-backs, but I think some patience at the moment will be rewarded.
 

Tomsk09

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Where does the word mediocracy come from? Is it a deliberate coinage, mediocracy being a state formed by and for mediocrities just as a democracy is a state formed by and for the people?

Or do we just mean mediocrity? I think mediocracy should be added to the language. Good word with lots of potential.

I am not sure either mediocrity or mediocracy applies to Hibs though. I just think the club has no money or is unwilling to spend what little it has, which adds up to the same thing, and is reflected in the side the put on the park on Sunday. We were also a bit unfortunate. Maybury was signed to provide cover but he ends up playing in a Scottish Cup final. There was a young laddie at centre half. Loan players in key places all over the team. Another young laddie as our key creative player. A crocked midfielder playing for nothing (and out of position incidentally). When you think about it Hibs overachieved just getting to the final. Whether they are realising their actual potential is another argument.
 

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I don't think we were massively outplayed tbh. We lost the first goal at a time when we were on top. The first two goals were from brutally bad defending, and admittedly two exceptional crosses. Celtic weren't exactly cutting us open at will, but they were more clinical than we were with the chances they had. We just couldn't break them down when we were having a good spell in the second half cause they defended well.

One thing which I haven't seen mentioned was Griffiths chance in the first half where he went round Forster but ended up without the angle to put it in. Could have quite easily went down under Forsters challenge which would have gave us a penalty and playing 10 men including their reserve keeper for the next 50 or so minutes... Fine margins between "accepting mediocrity" and "comeback kings".
Dude, I'm no sure we needed to be, if that makes any sense.

The soapys strolled that game imho. Yep, we huffed n puffed, but we were fairly shit. No one wanted to shoot. We saw quite often the passing back inside, or for example, Mcgivern stopping any forward run, and passing the ball backwards, quite a few times Hibs "worked the ball" back to the keeper who launched it upfield to the soapies defence.

Scott broon controlled the game from the half way line.

Paddy knew our defence isnae the best, so the full backs were tucking in tight with the centre backs.... obviously this gave e.g. Ledlay all the space in the world down our left in the first half.

Moot point, but I'd hedge my bets that if griffith had gone down in the box as you mention in your post that ref would have booked him. We got fuck all from him all day (not that it would have mattered).

They dominated us all over the park, they didnt give one foul away round their box knowing fully that our best chance of a goal would come from a leigh freekick.

...not at all doom and gloom from me. We had a young team out there in the end.

Hibernian didnae do me proud but the support certainly did.

Think we are fairly relaxed about this cup now. We get to the final next year and we will win it.

Paddy needs backed in the close season.
 

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Dude, I'm no sure we needed to be, if that makes any sense.

The soapys strolled that game imho. Yep, we huffed n puffed, but we were fairly shit. No one wanted to shoot. We saw quite often the passing back inside, or for example, Mcgivern stopping any forward run, and passing the ball backwards, quite a few times Hibs "worked the ball" back to the keeper who launched it upfield to the soapies defence.

Scott broon controlled the game from the half way line.

Paddy knew our defence isnae the best, so the full backs were tucking in tight with the centre backs.... obviously this gave e.g. Ledlay all the space in the world down our left in the first half.

Moot point, but I'd hedge my bets that if griffith had gone down in the box as you mention in your post that ref would have booked him. We got fuck all from him all day (not that it would have mattered).

They dominated us all over the park, they didnt give one foul away round their box knowing fully that our best chance of a goal would come from a leigh freekick.

...not at all doom and gloom from me. We had a young team out there in the end.

Hibernian didnae do me proud but the support certainly did.

Think we are fairly relaxed about this cup now. We get to the final next year and we will win it.

Paddy needs backed in the close season.
I agree EG. This is exactly how i saw it. The support was magnificent and we outplayed theirs from the kickoff leaving them speechless at the end.

The team had some decent individual performances, Taiwo particularly, who was my Hibs MOTM incidentally. They never added up to a whole though and i thought it was a very flat and disappointing team performance.

A great deal of work still to be done and Pat MUST be backed fully in the summer.
 

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  • [*=right]Comments
    [*=right]http://i3.https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rag/incoming/article942025.ece/ALTERNATES/s98/Colin-Duncan_1000x1000.jpg
    [*=right]ByColin Duncan

Colin Duncan: Hibs face long wait for glory if getting cuffed by the champions is deemed a decent performance

<time itemprop="datePublished" datetime="2013-05-28T08:15:23" class="published-date" style="position: absolute; top: 0px; right: 0px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: black; padding-left: 5px;">28 May 2013 09:15</time>THE losing Scottish Cup Finalists seemed to think anything other a hammering by their biggest rivals constituted a decent showing, COLIN says.


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<figure class="clearfix" style="margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-size: 12.727272033691406px; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; position: relative; zoom: 1;">http://i3.https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rag/incoming/article1915029.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS17490824-1915029.jpg<figcaption style="color: rgb(90, 100, 102); float: left; bottom: 10px; left: 10px; position: absolute; max-width: 96%; vertical-align: bottom; font-size: 1.077em; padding: 2px;">Pat Fenlon</figcaption></figure>
Bill Murray/SNS Group


THERE was something strangely surreal about the attitude of the Hibs players in the aftermath of Sundays Scottish Cup Final defeat.
One by one Pat Fenlons team trooped through the Hampden mixed zone, quite content with the fact theyd avoided a repeat of last seasons 5-1 humiliation at the hands of Hearts.
Incredibly, despite having just being hammered 3-0 by a Celtic outfit who didnt need to get out of second gear, they viewed their afternoons work as a triumph.
It was almost as if everything in the garden was rosy just because they hadnt been thumped by their biggest rivals.
Credit to the Hibs supporters who stayed to the bitter end and provided their team with terrific backing at the national stadium.
But if this is the extent of the clubs ambition on the park then it will be a long time before they have anything to really cheer about.
It is a sad day when abject suddenly becomes acceptable within the dressing room.
Every player who addressed the media after the match trotted out the same lines about what a decent performance it was and of how proud they were.
Proud of what exactly? Of passing up a glorious opportunity to make a fist of it against the SPL champions who didnt need to be anywhere near their best?​
Of meekly rolling over and thinking that anything better than a four-goal margin of defeat was something to be celebrated?
Maybe that attitude stems from the manager because Pat Fenlon didnt seem too upset afterwards, claiming the defeat didnt hurt as much as 12 months ago.
Like most of his players the Irishman shrugged off the setback as if his team had just lost a kickabout down the local park.
Can you imagine Neil Lennon or any of his charges adopting the same approach in the wake of such a comprehensive doing?
Of course you couldnt. No, it simply wouldnt be allowed to happen under his watch.
The Celtic manager would have gone through his men like a dose of salts if they had performed so lamentably and rightly so.
Instead of waxing lyrical about how they didnt crumble even more spectacularly the Hibs players would have been better served telling it how it really was.
In the build-up to the match, the recurring theme from the Leith camp was of how this group were filled with leaders and were unrecognisable from the squad who capitulated against Hearts last May.
Yet, there was absolutely zero evidence of people willing to take control on the park and it was the same story afterwards with nobody willing to take any responsibility off it.​
The defending at the first two goals was nothing short of diabolical with Alan Maybury, Paul Hanlon and goalkeeper Ben Williams all at fault.
But was anyone man enough to put their hands up and admit culpability afterwards?
Dont be so daft. They were either hiding behind a collective cloak of we defend as a unit or too busy patting themselves on the back for only losing 3-0.
Leigh Griffiths was just about the only Hibs player not to address the media afterwards, the official line being that he was too distraught to speak.
The double Player of the Year award winner was also the only one who actually seemed to be suffering.
Injury prevented a half-fit Griffiths from making any worthwhile impact on the game and as he trooped off the pitch when substituted six minutes from time he was clearly hurting, both physically and mentally.
Unfortunately for the long-suffering Hibs supporters not enough of his team-mates appeared to be sharing any of his pain.
And while this attitude remains at Easter Road it could be another 111 years before the fans have a Scottish Cup win to celebrate.
 

levenhibee

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Team tried hard and can't really be faulted for their effort but not good enough on the day plain and simple.
One thing for sure WE WILL WIN THE SC ONE DAY. sadly for me when that day comes I will be dead.

In the meantime knowing our luck Hearts will in all probability win it again afore we do.

- - - Updated - - -

Dude, I'm no sure we needed to be, if that makes any sense.

The soapys strolled that game imho. Yep, we huffed n puffed, but we were fairly shit. No one wanted to shoot. We saw quite often the passing back inside, or for example, Mcgivern stopping any forward run, and passing the ball backwards, quite a few times Hibs "worked the ball" back to the keeper who launched it upfield to the soapies defence.

Scott broon controlled the game from the half way line.

Paddy knew our defence isnae the best, so the full backs were tucking in tight with the centre backs.... obviously this gave e.g. Ledlay all the space in the world down our left in the first half.

Moot point, but I'd hedge my bets that if griffith had gone down in the box as you mention in your post that ref would have booked him. We got fuck all from him all day (not that it would have mattered).

They dominated us all over the park, they didnt give one foul away round their box knowing fully that our best chance of a goal would come from a leigh freekick.

...not at all doom and gloom from me. We had a young team out there in the end.

Hibernian didnae do me proud but the support certainly did.

Think we are fairly relaxed about this cup now. We get to the final next year and we will win it.

Paddy needs backed in the close season.

Yes a young team but will we keep them long enough to bare fruit. Going on our past record the answer is likely to be NO!.
Our best chance was probably 2007 when but for the dressing room fiasco we would have won the cup double IMO.
 

aggie

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I really don't see how, for instance, Ben Williams saying "aye, it was my fault" is meant to achieve anything. The game is over. Even when I played football at school and in the BBs, it wasn't the done thing to single anyone out. Win as a team, lose as a team. I've no problem with that. Comments on individual culpability should be reserved for the dressing room. Or arses in the media like this bloke.

As for saying it didn't hurt as much this year - well it didn't, did it? I couldn't go out for about a week after last year. It's just a fact.

As for on the park - well, it was disappointing, definitely. We lost an awful goal which knocked the stuffing out of us. That's football. We always needed to score first. After that, Celtic's players could relax and start to play their game, at which point the fact that they possess quality like Brown, Stokes, Hooper, Ledley, Commons told. Perhaps if our one player of real quality was up to it, we'd have got a different result. I'm not blaming Doyle, but LG, or for that matter Hooper or Stokes would have buried that chance. That's the difference.

What is anyone meant to say? - we've not played well, and neither, really, have Celtc. However, their sub-par is better than our sub-par. End of.

Wonder if the same hack gave the Gunts a hard time for not flaying themselves in public when they lost to a WORSE team than them? Nah, thought not.

He can go and fling shite at himsel, as far as I'm concerned.
 

hibs1986

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Actually, now I've read the article, I'm a bit pissed off about it. And as for suggesting Neil Lennon is any kind of role model in defeat.......:boxing:
Basically, he appears to have written off Hibs because the players and management didn't throw the toys out the pram, or self-immolate after the game. Personally, I'd rather they behaved with a bit of dignity. So there.
 

tayside hibee

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We can't really win with the media here

When Hibs sack managers we get slagged off for not giving them enough time. When fans leave when the team is 3-0 down our loyalty is up for question

When the team act with dignity admitting we simply got beat from the better team on the day, and the fans pull together and show some support then we are behaving like some kind of soft touch losers
No mention of course about the medley of rebel songs coming from the other end

I wish they would make up their fucking minds. Smeltic and sevco have been applauded off the park many a time
This of course is reported as the greatest fans in the world proving their worth yet again

For their information, this Hibs fan and many others are hurting. I can't speak for the players or manager, but they were hardly dancing a jig on Sunday. Our captain was out and our top scorer was injured. We live by our means and give youth a chance
What exactly do they want us to do?

Cheat :detective:
 

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    [*=right]ByColin Duncan

Colin Duncan: Hibs face long wait for glory if getting cuffed by the champions is deemed a decent performance

<time itemprop="datePublished" datetime="2013-05-28T08:15:23" class="published-date" style="position: absolute; top: 0px; right: 0px; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: black; padding-left: 5px;">28 May 2013 09:15</time>THE losing Scottish Cup Finalists seemed to think anything other a hammering by their biggest rivals constituted a decent showing, COLIN says.


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<figure class="clearfix" style="margin: 0px 0px 10px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; font-size: 12.727272033691406px; font-family: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; position: relative; zoom: 1;">http://i3.https://www.dictionary.com/browse/rag/incoming/article1915029.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/JS17490824-1915029.jpg<figcaption style="color: rgb(90, 100, 102); float: left; bottom: 10px; left: 10px; position: absolute; max-width: 96%; vertical-align: bottom; font-size: 1.077em; padding: 2px;">Pat Fenlon</figcaption></figure>
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THERE was something strangely surreal about the attitude of the Hibs players in the aftermath of Sundays Scottish Cup Final defeat.
One by one Pat Fenlons team trooped through the Hampden mixed zone, quite content with the fact theyd avoided a repeat of last seasons 5-1 humiliation at the hands of Hearts.
Incredibly, despite having just being hammered 3-0 by a Celtic outfit who didnt need to get out of second gear, they viewed their afternoons work as a triumph.
It was almost as if everything in the garden was rosy just because they hadnt been thumped by their biggest rivals.
Credit to the Hibs supporters who stayed to the bitter end and provided their team with terrific backing at the national stadium.
But if this is the extent of the clubs ambition on the park then it will be a long time before they have anything to really cheer about.
It is a sad day when abject suddenly becomes acceptable within the dressing room.
Every player who addressed the media after the match trotted out the same lines about what a decent performance it was and of how proud they were.
Proud of what exactly? Of passing up a glorious opportunity to make a fist of it against the SPL champions who didnt need to be anywhere near their best?​
Of meekly rolling over and thinking that anything better than a four-goal margin of defeat was something to be celebrated?
Maybe that attitude stems from the manager because Pat Fenlon didnt seem too upset afterwards, claiming the defeat didnt hurt as much as 12 months ago.
Like most of his players the Irishman shrugged off the setback as if his team had just lost a kickabout down the local park.
Can you imagine Neil Lennon or any of his charges adopting the same approach in the wake of such a comprehensive doing?
Of course you couldnt. No, it simply wouldnt be allowed to happen under his watch.
The Celtic manager would have gone through his men like a dose of salts if they had performed so lamentably and rightly so.
Instead of waxing lyrical about how they didnt crumble even more spectacularly the Hibs players would have been better served telling it how it really was.
In the build-up to the match, the recurring theme from the Leith camp was of how this group were filled with leaders and were unrecognisable from the squad who capitulated against Hearts last May.
Yet, there was absolutely zero evidence of people willing to take control on the park and it was the same story afterwards with nobody willing to take any responsibility off it.​
The defending at the first two goals was nothing short of diabolical with Alan Maybury, Paul Hanlon and goalkeeper Ben Williams all at fault.
But was anyone man enough to put their hands up and admit culpability afterwards?
Dont be so daft. They were either hiding behind a collective cloak of we defend as a unit or too busy patting themselves on the back for only losing 3-0.
Leigh Griffiths was just about the only Hibs player not to address the media afterwards, the official line being that he was too distraught to speak.
The double Player of the Year award winner was also the only one who actually seemed to be suffering.
Injury prevented a half-fit Griffiths from making any worthwhile impact on the game and as he trooped off the pitch when substituted six minutes from time he was clearly hurting, both physically and mentally.
Unfortunately for the long-suffering Hibs supporters not enough of his team-mates appeared to be sharing any of his pain.
And while this attitude remains at Easter Road it could be another 111 years before the fans have a Scottish Cup win to celebrate.
Aye, cause mind when Lennon went tonto about Celtic getting skelped off Juventus (a club that Celtic have around a third of the budget of)? Oh right, he didn't.

So a huge massive surprise that Hibs with around a 7th of the budget of Celtic didn't have everyone going mental? Baws. Written by a wanker.
 

SKII

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Just like the Gunts, someone telling us how we should be feeling about something because it fits their agenda or story.

We will decide how we feel about Sunday, next season, the season after that and so on. Not Red Top hacks, not the Gunts and certainly not anyone who sails in them.

That is all.
 

Sir Albert

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Do we accept mediocracy?

I don't think we do at all. We are just realistic. Was always going to be tough against Celtic. Our team finished bottom 6 for a reason. As has been said we would have a far better chance against a team worse than us. We seem to be unlucky in always playing a better team in the Final.

I think some people are getting the fans support mixed up with acceptance.
 

Forzahibs

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Actually i deeply regret not damaging some cars and smashing a few shops up on the way back to the bus now . Seems to be the more acceptable way to behave when you lose a final
 

SuperTortolano

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What this two bit journey fails to realize is, we are still building a team, and recovering from the last 5 years. We almost got relegated last year, and were humiliated in the cup final.

The players let us down massively last year, and the fans were not happy to accept mediocracy. Easter Road was not a nice place to be last year. This year has been different. The fans can see there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and we are showing signs of improvement. We are now in Europe, and can look forward to the future.
 

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