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jock3

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Tony Bliar also achieved devastation in Iraq and the Middle East costing millions of lives and started commanding after dinner speaking fees in the range of £100K, after accepting the Murdoch shilling.

The media assassination of Corbyn was nigh on criminal, John McDonnell summed it up well on the Andrew Marr show, 'he suffered the fate of anyone who challenges the establishment'.

Johnson's promises of huge investment should not be trusted, looks like their Brexit position cost Labour dear. The paradox is Jezza is a leaver and was damned if he does and damned if he doesn't!

So another 5 years of Tory rule hurts bad, we can only hope the Labour Movement learn some valuable lessons.
 

HenryLB

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I'm not sure about that Henry. What taxes on wealth are out of kilter with social democracy?
I was just pointing out that wealth taxes are not "mainstream" in other nations at all. The reverse - they have been discontinued in almost all comparable European social democracies.


I'm not sure either Murray or Milne think the wrong side won the cold war, and I don't think most people even know who they are.
Look its no shock that a manifesto explicitly not in the interests of the rich was going to be attacked by the rich, be that media barons, owners of utilities etc. The question is, is it possible in this media and power system to have a fair and democratic debate where opposing views can be aired. I fear not.
I disagree, I think people are smarter and more involved than you may allow and I'd put money on both Murray and Milne thinking precisely that. They've pretty much said as much. Murray whitewashing the USSR's imperialism as recently as this year, both of them writing for Straight Left in the 80s, an organ largely conceived to defend the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan and make the USSR look good.

Look at the aftermath polling and some of the snapshot studies for ex-Labour voters and constituencies - many people consider Corbyn to be sort of ok but surrounded in part by the harder left. I happen to agree with that, largely because it seems demonstrably true.


On the latter point, i think the two are inextricably linked. Corbyn's position on Brexit was part of the 'weak leadership' narrative. The former i've tried to answer to Aggie above.
Yes, but one is not the other. There's an odd kind of cognitive dissonance going on in some quarters where Corbyn's defeat has abruptly become apparently inevitable due to the press and brexit. Weird, given that the politics of the former can't have escaped the notice of Corbyn supporters pre-election, and the latter was literally in their gift to design how they wanted.
 

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Henry, dinnnae waste yer time mate. As a long time Liberal Democrat supporter on here go on and tell me the difference between David Steel chanting ,go back and prepare for power and the delusional Jo Swinson, I am standing to be a candidate to be the next Prime Minister. Both of which I am old enough to remember. All the best mate however history has and will pass your party further by.

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Gareth

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I was just pointing out that wealth taxes are not "mainstream" in other nations at all. The reverse - they have been discontinued in almost all comparable European social democracies.
What I'm asking you is in terms of actual tax policy how does it differ so radically. What extra tax take was so frightening and marks the manifesto out as far left?


I disagree, I think people are smarter and more involved than you may allow and I'd put money on both Murray and Milne thinking precisely that. They've pretty much said as much. Murray whitewashing the USSR's imperialism as recently as this year, both of them writing for Straight Left in the 80s, an organ largely conceived to defend the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Afghanistan and make the USSR look good.
Some of the support for the USSR in the 80s was mental. But, this was 30-years ago. Thatcher was supporting the mujahadeen and calling Mandela a terrorist. She was also being very good friends with Pinochet and numerous other brutal dictators. Now I know past friendships are only something the left is meant to be embarassed about but....
So you're betting on the cold war thing rather than knowing it? and I genuinely don't think many people know who they are. Even political people I know have no idea

Look at the aftermath polling and some of the snapshot studies for ex-Labour voters and constituencies - many people consider Corbyn to be sort of ok but surrounded in part by the harder left. I happen to agree with that, largely because it seems demonstrably true.
Honestly haven't seen any such poll

Y
es, but one is not the other. There's an odd kind of cognitive dissonance going on in some quarters where Corbyn's defeat has abruptly become apparently inevitable due to the press and brexit. Weird, given that the politics of the former can't have escaped the notice of Corbyn supporters pre-election, and the latter was literally in their gift to design how they wanted.
I thought at the time it was an error. Didn't think it would have quite as brutal ramifications but there you go. And the press issue is far from sudden, books have been written about it.
 

GORDONSMITH7

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What I'm asking you is in terms of actual tax policy how does it differ so radically. What extra tax take was so frightening and marks the manifesto out as far left?



Some of the support for the USSR in the 80s was mental. But, this was 30-years ago. Thatcher was supporting the mujahadeen and calling Mandela a terrorist. She was also being very good friends with Pinochet and numerous other brutal dictators. Now I know past friendships are only something the left is meant to be embarassed about but....
So you're betting on the cold war thing rather than knowing it? and I genuinely don't think many people know who they are. Even political people I know have no idea



Honestly haven't seen any such poll

Y

I thought at the time it was an error. Didn't think it would have quite as brutal ramifications but there you go. And the press issue is far from sudden, books have been written about it.
Two pints and a packet of crisps amigo

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aggie

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Two pints of Black amigo and the same with, a very large malt for aggie , after aggie is resting his sair legs in the Bottom Shop totally goosed after supporting my boy on Hogmanay. Quality.

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I look forward to seeing you G – hopefully it's clear that I consider us on the same side, notwithstanding the questions I'm wrestling with. My interrogation of the ideas in play is certainly in the service of rethinking the future in a way I'm sure we'd both feel was a way forward. Pretty sure Shaun would be taking part in the argument with customary gusto too.

I will also undoubtedly be goosed - my mind is nowadays writing cheques my body absolutely cannot cash!
 

Purple & Green

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In 1997 labour won 327 of the seats in England.
In 2019 conservatives won 345

That’s quite a trick the tories pulled off. One nation conservatives indeed
 

aggie

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Okay, I have two further questions today, on the day when we are set to begin the process of leaving the EU: 1) why did Labour agree to an election when they were so far down in the polls and had Johnson trapped in a minority government; and 2) having done so, why did they point-blank refuse to enter any form of Remain alliance?

Stupidity, arrogance, or something else? (And that's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one!)
 

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Okay, I have two further questions today, on the day when we are set to begin the process of leaving the EU: 1) why did Labour agree to an election when they were so far down in the polls and had Johnson trapped in a minority government; and 2) having done so, why did they point-blank refuse to enter any form of Remain alliance?

Stupidity, arrogance, or something else? (And that's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one!)
Genuine answer......no idea.

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Fernando

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Okay, I have two further questions today, on the day when we are set to begin the process of leaving the EU: 1) why did Labour agree to an election when they were so far down in the polls and had Johnson trapped in a minority government; and 2) having done so, why did they point-blank refuse to enter any form of Remain alliance?

Stupidity, arrogance, or something else? (And that's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one!)
A think on point one they thought there manifesto would Appel to a wider audience and not be bogged down by brexit ,mistake .on point two any form of remain alliance would have opened up the accusation of being in bed with the nats .another mistake .be genital
 

Gareth

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Okay, I have two further questions today, on the day when we are set to begin the process of leaving the EU: 1) why did Labour agree to an election when they were so far down in the polls and had Johnson trapped in a minority government; and 2) having done so, why did they point-blank refuse to enter any form of Remain alliance?

Stupidity, arrogance, or something else? (And that's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one!)
My guess
1. they felt that it was unsustainable not to. I think it likely the SNP and others would have voted for an election and this would have meant it didn't require too many labour MPs to vote for an election for it to happen, and the leadership then look feart. I also think they thought they could win, or at least not lose, as did I.
2. I think there are two reasons, 1 is that they were trying to make the election about much more than just brexit so to ally with the Tory lite lib dems would have been to concede that nothing else matters. 2 and linked, i think rightly they saw the lib dems as both an austerity party and thus the midwives of brexit, and as a party with more in common with the tories so to form an alliance with them would have been a refutation of all anti-poverty and anti-austerity politics. I also think they probably thought the lib dems would stand down in some seats.
 

aggie

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My guess
1. they felt that it was unsustainable not to. I think it likely the SNP and others would have voted for an election and this would have meant it didn't require too many labour MPs to vote for an election for it to happen, and the leadership then look feart. I also think they thought they could win, or at least not lose, as did I.
2. I think there are two reasons, 1 is that they were trying to make the election about much more than just brexit so to ally with the Tory lite lib dems would have been to concede that nothing else matters. 2 and linked, i think rightly they saw the lib dems as both an austerity party and thus the midwives of brexit, and as a party with more in common with the tories so to form an alliance with them would have been a refutation of all anti-poverty and anti-austerity politics. I also think they probably thought the lib dems would stand down in some seats.
Seems plausible on all points.
Re: the two bits in bold - was the first their major failure of strategy? I totally appreciate that this was a fcuker of a position to be in, though. As for the second, that would always have been unlikely without some quid pro quo, no?

Also, for the avoidance of doubt: despite my questions/misgivings on this thread, I wish Labour had won. I genuinely had (and have) no desire to see the rest of the UK go under the bus because it advances the independence cause (in the sense of the wider desire for it). The Tories are horrors, and the result a calamity.
 

HenryLB

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What I'm asking you is in terms of actual tax policy how does it differ so radically. What extra tax take was so frightening and marks the manifesto out as far left?
The wealth tax. Which differs from social-democratic norms by not existing in comparable social democratic nations. And you're making the assumption that people believed the manifesto would be the extent of Labour's designs on their cash when in fact they could see the kind of people and ideas Corbyn associated with and know pretty straight up that the soft stuff could get harder very quickly.

Some of the support for the USSR in the 80s was mental. But, this was 30-years ago. Thatcher was supporting the mujahadeen and calling Mandela a terrorist. She was also being very good friends with Pinochet and numerous other brutal dictators. Now I know past friendships are only something the left is meant to be embarassed about but....
So you're betting on the cold war thing rather than knowing it? and I genuinely don't think many people know who they are. Even political people I know have no idea
No, I know that Milne and Murray think the USSR should have won the cold war because they have said so often. We'll have to just disagree over how widely known they are. Almost everybody I know with even a vague interest in left politics knows at least who Milne is. He was one of the most prominent left journalists at the most prominent left newspaper for years, for a start.

It's not a great defence of Corbyn's associates to say that Thatcher was at it as well but in the other direction. Two wrongs don't make a right. And I'm not sure the voters who deserted Labour would have given Thatcher a pass given that they definitely weren't voting for her then.

Honestly haven't seen any such poll
It was by Deltapoll. 46% of people who voted Labour in 2017 but didn't in 2019 said Corbyn was the main factor. Only 19% cited Brexit.

I thought at the time it was an error. Didn't think it would have quite as brutal ramifications but there you go. And the press issue is far from sudden, books have been written about it.
As I say, I'm not sure the ramifications were quite as brutal as some are trying to claim. But I do take your point about the brexit stance making the leadership look weak. The press thing - exactly. There seems to be a strain of thought that says losing was inevitable but one didn't hear that much in the run up.
 

GORDONSMITH7

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The wealth tax. Which differs from social-democratic norms by not existing in comparable social democratic nations. And you're making the assumption that people believed the manifesto would be the extent of Labour's designs on their cash when in fact they could see the kind of people and ideas Corbyn associated with and know pretty straight up that the soft stuff could get harder very quickly.



No, I know that Milne and Murray think the USSR should have won the cold war because they have said so often. We'll have to just disagree over how widely known they are. Almost everybody I know with even a vague interest in left politics knows at least who Milne is. He was one of the most prominent left journalists at the most prominent left newspaper for years, for a start.

It's not a great defence of Corbyn's associates to say that Thatcher was at it as well but in the other direction. Two wrongs don't make a right. And I'm not sure the voters who deserted Labour would have given Thatcher a pass given that they definitely weren't voting for her then.



It was by Deltapoll. 46% of people who voted Labour in 2017 but didn't in 2019 said Corbyn was the main factor. Only 19% cited Brexit.



As I say, I'm not sure the ramifications were quite as brutal as some are trying to claim. But I do take your point about the brexit stance making the leadership look weak. The press thing - exactly. There seems to be a strain of thought that says losing was inevitable but one didn't hear that much in the run up.
The Guardian, a prominent left paper, I do not think so. It is at present attacking Rebbeca Long- Bailey and supported your party of choice the dreadful Liberal Democrats, co instigators of attacks on the working class, in coalition with their Tory pals. That went down well at the election.

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GORDONSMITH7

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Slavering, dribbling, Spitting Image caricature, former Labour deputy leader Blairite Lord Hattersley has called on the party's MPs to defy Rebecca Long-Bailey if she succeeds Jeremy Corbyn as leader. In the paper Henry laughably calls left, they said.....

'The Labour grandee, who served in James Callaghan's government and has been fiercely critical of Jeremy Corbyn, said Ms Long-Bailey's victory would act as a "public statement that Corbyn has gone but Corbynism lives on".

And he urged MPs to pursue an "outright refusal to accept" her leadership.'

So much for democracy. The more dinosaurs like Hattersley, Blair, Johnson, Balls and the billionaire rubbish press attack her and de facto the Party membership, the less chance of their collective goal of returning the Labour Party to a compliant New Labour. Anyone who wants otherwise should join the Lib Dems.Jings what am I saying several Labour and Tory MPs did and not one won a seat.
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Jack

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I think this thread is very symbolic of what's gone wrong with Labour and why those that have voted for them in the past no longer do so.

While I've always been aware of different factions within the party there always seemed to be an uneasy alliance and the real enemy was the Torys. Internal differences were put aside to form coherent oppositions (mostly) and governments. The Labour voting electorate could see how the parliamentary party was working for them.

Since Corbyn came in the party appear to spend more time arguing within itself rather than challenging the Torys; the Corbynistas seem intent on finishing off the Blairites while the Blairites snipe at the Corbynistas at every opportunity.

The Labour Party have forgotten their raison d'etre is and the "working man" feels ignored. Electorate! What electorate?

In Scotland there's the added cheek to cheek relationship they have with the Torys. Since they got their arrogant arses handed to them on a plate by the SNP in the Scottish Parliament they've become the petulant Labour party and particularly at the independence vote result where they celebrated so enthusiastically with the Torys, that was a real WTF moment for many Scots.
 

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The lassie that has just taken the huge salary from bet365 is apparently a big labour supporter. Not entirely relevant to the thread but I found it interesting.
 

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The Guardian, a prominent left paper, I do not think so. It is at present attacking Rebbeca Long- Bailey and supported your party of choice the dreadful Liberal Democrats, co instigators of attacks on the working class, in coalition with their Tory pals. That went down well at the election.

BIG G
I'll grant you that the Guardian is not as left wing as you'd like, but then neither are voters in this country, apparently. The point is that Milne was a prominent journalist at a national newspaper - so quite well known - and a left voice. Surely even you'd agree that he passes the test of socialist purity?

I'm still mystified at why you keep saying I support the Lib Dems. I voted Green at the election, although I suppose I might well have voted Lib Dem in their absence so maybe it's fair enough.
 
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