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Hibernian v Morton

HenryLB

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Agreed - one of the few comments M has made in his just backs, all year, tha had me scratching my head, was when he said (iirc) Boyle doesn't go past his man. Can't remember the game and maybe he failed to on that occasion, but he does so more than any of our other attacking players...and then does fecking zero.
I always think he's about 15 per cent off being a really amazing player, like getting signed for Man City or something.
 

Jack

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I wouldn't hold my breath on the board making any big investments when we go up. The team clearly needed some freshening up and Lennon said as much. They have basically gambled the future of the club on being cheap. If Dundee Utd had struck any kind of form it would be a whole nother story. They have gambled and got lucky. That's not a gamble that should ever have been taken, especially as this is our third year in the league. Everything and anything should have been done to make sure it wasn't a gamble.
I can't see how the board went cheap.

At the start of the season our squad was worth 2 or 3 times the worth of our rivals, 4 or 5 times that of the other clubs.

While it defies logic we've done relatively well against our closest rivals and not so well against the others.

No-one did much in January so there was unlikely to be any immediate threat to our position all things being equal. Or even the unequal world mentioned above!

And as well as that our club have used the loan rules to our great advantage when we thought it was necessary.

We've had the best players in the league all season. I think they should have done better with by far the best manager in the league but 10 points ahead with 6 games to go suggests to me the club hasn't been wrong.
 

Hibee Kev

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I can't see how the board went cheap.

At the start of the season our squad was worth 2 or 3 times the worth of our rivals, 4 or 5 times that of the other clubs.

While it defies logic we've done relatively well against our closest rivals and not so well against the others.

No-one did much in January so there was unlikely to be any immediate threat to our position all things being equal. Or even the unequal world mentioned above!

And as well as that our club have used the loan rules to our great advantage when we thought it was necessary.

We've had the best players in the league all season. I think they should have done better with by far the best manager in the league but 10 points ahead with 6 games to go suggests to me the club hasn't been wrong.
I hear you Jack but you have to admit the board did "roll the dice" to a certain extent when they didn't need to by not investing further in the squad in January. This should have locked-in promotion to a greater degree IMO. Okay it's all irrelevant now (hopefully) and the gamble has paid off but I don't think the board should be congratulated as geniuses of foresight. Plus there is also the argument we should continually be looking to improve our squad using every window available. I do concede it does all seem kind of trivial arguing these kind of things now the main objective has nearly been achieved!
 

HenryLB

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We've had the best players in the league all season. I think they should have done better with by far the best manager in the league but 10 points ahead with 6 games to go suggests to me the club hasn't been wrong.
Yes, it's difficult to imagine them beating themselves up too badly because in the end they've achieved what they set out to do. I agree that they've been fortunate that no one has come out of the pack but ultimately it's a job done.

I don't really know how good the top division is. But if teams are able to vary their tempo a bit more and control games then Hibs will be in real trouble. At the moment we can beat the sides that try to come at us because they lack the ability to switch what they're doing with any speed. We struggle against the teams that park the bus and dig in because, frankly, our squad is missing enough proper quality. Against outfits that can essentially attack and defend I'd envisage us enduring some pretty rough times.
 

Greenmachine

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Yes, it's difficult to imagine them beating themselves up too badly because in the end they've achieved what they set out to do. I agree that they've been fortunate that no one has come out of the pack but ultimately it's a job done.

I don't really know how good the top division is. But if teams are able to vary their tempo a bit more and control games then Hibs will be in real trouble. At the moment we can beat the sides that try to come at us because they lack the ability to switch what they're doing with any speed. We struggle against the teams that park the bus and dig in because, frankly, our squad is missing enough proper quality. Against outfits that can essentially attack and defend I'd envisage us enduring some pretty rough times.
Good post....assuming we do go up, we will need 7 new players of top 6 SPFL quality or better in my opinion. We will likely lose McGinn and Cummings as well so that has to be factored into any thoughts about our squad strength for next season. The current squad is not good enough to finish top 6 in the league above in my view.
 

Stu

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Just out of genuine interes and for the purposes of debate, who are the six Premiership teams that are clearly superior to the current Hibs squad?
 

egb_hibs

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Just out of genuine interes and for the purposes of debate, who are the six Premiership teams that are clearly superior to the current Hibs squad?
I think this is overblown - Celtic aside, I don't think we're miles behind anyone though I don't think we'd keep pace with Aberdeen over a season.
 

Stu

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I think this is overblown - Celtic aside, I don't think we're miles behind anyone though I don't think we'd keep pace with Aberdeen over a season.
That's pretty well where I am in my estimation.

What should also be added to the equation is relative resources through current support etc. compared with some. There is another instance of one of those top six clubs who appear singularly unable to beat us in quite some time for what it is worth and more importantly are now having to live in the 'real world'. I'd struggle to state they were superior to Hibs. ;)
 

egb_hibs

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That's pretty well where I am in my estimation.

What should also be added to the equation is relative resources through current support etc. compared with some. There is another instance of one of those top six clubs who appear singularly unable to beat us in quite some time for what it is worth and more importantly are now having to live in the 'real world'. I'd struggle to state they were superior to Hibs. ;)
If you desconstruct our team, I think our back four is the best outside Celtic - playing in a traditional role anyway, SDM and Lewis are not wing-backs. Our midfield has a strong core but could do with a midfield general and some more effective wide players if we're not going with wing backs. We have a striker in jason, who is up there with anyone outside Celtic, but we've yet to find the right partner. Top 3 is a realistic goal for next year with some targeted strengthening.
 

Jack

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Just out of genuine interes and for the purposes of debate, who are the six Premiership teams that are clearly superior to the current Hibs squad?
According to Transfermarkt Hibs total value and average value of players would be 5th.

Celtc. £48.62m £1.87m
Sevco £11.86m £494k
Gunts £9.52m £366k
Sheep £7.54m £377k
Hibernian FC. £7.25m £279k

Then it's

Hamilton. £6.55m £193k
Ross County. £6.42m £279k
St Johnstone. £6.10m £265k
ICT. £5.36m £223k
Motherwell. £5.27m £211k
Kilmarnock. £5.16m £184k
Partick Thistle. £5.08m £231k
Dundee. £5.02m £239k
 

egb_hibs

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According to Transfermarkt Hibs total value and average value of players would be 5th.

Celtc. £48.62m £1.87m
Sevco £11.86m £494k
Gunts £9.52m £366k
Sheep £7.54m £377k
Hibernian FC. £7.25m £279k

Then it's

Hamilton. £6.55m £193k
Ross County. £6.42m £279k
St Johnstone. £6.10m £265k
ICT. £5.36m £223k
Motherwell. £5.27m £211k
Kilmarnock. £5.16m £184k
Partick Thistle. £5.08m £231k
Dundee. £5.02m £239k
What's the second figure Jack? Edit - doh that's the average innit.
 

egb_hibs

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What areas do you think?
Er the ones I described K!

- midfield general
- wingers
- strike partner for Jase

There's obviously areas where we need cover, notably RB - these are the ones I think we need greater first pick capability.
 

Stu

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What areas do you think?
I'll go on that one.

The forwards have to be re-thought out. I am making the by-no-means certain assumption that Cummings will remain with us but if he does a new partner for him has to be identified and brought in. I think the blend has been a good one up front but in Holt we have a player who is a little past his best days to be effective any much longer. The jury is out on Graham but indications are we need better as a first team regular. Incidentally, if Cummings should go I can quite see Stokes being brought in as a condition of that.

There does need to be a little more authority in midfield and hopefully scoring threat from that area. Dylan McGeouch's fitness might be central to the former issue.

One of the most useful players that Hibs could possibly bring in would be a utility full-back who could feasibly play on either side. This is where we are often found wanting when injury strikes and often leads to a slightly uncomfortable looking central defender or three plugging the gap.

- - - Updated - - -

Er the ones I described K!
- wingers
Oh aye...and one of them. :)
 

southfieldhibby

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Er the ones I described K!

- midfield general
- wingers
- strike partner for Jase

There's obviously areas where we need cover, notably RB - these are the ones I think we need greater first pick capability.
We need a new goalie or 3, we're about to lose the 3 we've got.
We need a right back and left back, either cover or starters
We need an attacking midfielder
We need one- maybe two- wingers
We need at least two centre forwards, three if Cummings leaves.

I think we need at a minimum 8 players, with probably the same number leaving.
 

SuperTortolano

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I can't see how the board went cheap.At the start of the season our squad was worth 2 or 3 times the worth of our rivals, 4 or 5 times that of the other clubs.While it defies logic we've done relatively well against our closest rivals and not so well against the others.No-one did much in January so there was unlikely to be any immediate threat to our position all things being equal. Or even the unequal world mentioned above!And as well as that our club have used the loan rules to our great advantage when we thought it was necessary.We've had the best players in the league all season. I think they should have done better with by far the best manager in the league but 10 points ahead with 6 games to go suggests to me the club hasn't been wrong.
I think our board went cheap in regards to the previous seasons squad. The squad was severely trimmed which it needed, but I didn't think we invested accordingly. I think two players brought in and the rest all loan players. With record number season ticket sales and the SC win, money was there. So for me loan players and little investment is cheap.
 

Greenmachine

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Just out of genuine interes and for the purposes of debate, who are the six Premiership teams that are clearly superior to the current Hibs squad?
I'm not saying that there are six Premiership clubs who are clearly superior to Hibs, what I am saying is that with the squad we have at the moment IMO Hibs would struggle to finish in the top 6. I'm not trying to be smart or anything, but having been down in this league for three years now there is a danger that fans become so used to seeing the team winning most weeks in this league that we naturally assume (falsely IMO) that means that we have a very good team that would do well in the league above. I think we have a few very good players...Cummings, McGinn, Hanlon, McGregor and possibly McGeogh and Fyvie , but we have several who look quite good in this league but IMO would be no more than mid-table or bottom 6 players in the league above. The team has an inherent flaw in that we only have one reliable goalscorer. That will be nothing like good enough in the league above, particularly as it is a strong possibility we will lose that player in the summer. We need goals...much more goals than we get just now...when we get back up. What we will also find is that we will be punished more for defensive mistakes by most teams. We get away with that in this league because most of the teams aren't good enough to take advantage.

Having Lennon as manager next season will help enormously as he has plenty of experience of managing at a high level and he has a winners mentality which is essential if we are going to do anything. With his experience in the game I am confident he will know where we are weak and where we need strengthening. I hope very much that the board back him with sufficient funds to bring in the 7 players I feel we will need if we are going to make any significant impact on the league above.
 

Stu

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I'm not saying that there are six Premiership clubs who are clearly superior to Hibs, what I am saying is that with the squad we have at the moment IMO Hibs would struggle to finish in the top 6. I'm not trying to be smart or anything, but having been down in this league for three years now there is a danger that fans become so used to seeing the team winning most weeks in this league that we naturally assume (falsely IMO) that means that we have a very good team that would do well in the league above. I think we have a few very good players...Cummings, McGinn, Hanlon, McGregor and possibly McGeogh and Fyvie , but we have several who look quite good in this league but IMO would be no more than mid-table or bottom 6 players in the league above. The team has an inherent flaw in that we only have one reliable goalscorer. That will be nothing like good enough in the league above, particularly as it is a strong possibility we will lose that player in the summer. We need goals...much more goals than we get just now...when we get back up. What we will also find is that we will be punished more for defensive mistakes by most teams. We get away with that in this league because most of the teams aren't good enough to take advantage.

Having Lennon as manager next season will help enormously as he has plenty of experience of managing at a high level and he has a winners mentality which is essential if we are going to do anything. With his experience in the game I am confident he will know where we are weak and where we need strengthening. I hope very much that the board back him with sufficient funds to bring in the 7 players I feel we will need if we are going to make any significant impact on the league above.
I'm not going to debate too many of your points there which are fair enough but I come at this from a different perspective. I actually get the feeling that, apart from two or three obvious exceptions, the actual standards between the rest of the Premiership teams and many Championship teams is overstated. Time after time I have seen players note this and corroborate that view also, claiming that the Championship is not an easy league to play in by any means. That's possibly not just down to quality standards but the style of play encountered often each week also with teams playing tight and refusing to come out to play against a 'top' side such as Hibs. For me this skews a lot of estimations and makes comparisons difficult.

With respect to those teams, I see no great quality in more that a smattering of players from the likes of the mid-table teams such as St Johnstone, Gunts, Partick, Dundee and Kilmarnock and i see no reason why Hibs can't tuck in nicely and re-establish themselves in a reasonable upper mid-table spot next season, should they be promoted of course. For me, especially if we arrive with a little momentum and a decent signing or three, I feel that these teams will be just as apprehensive of what Hibs can do to them as the other way around, especially with our, in some cases better resources. Nothing to fear in my view.
 

HenryLB

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If you desconstruct our team, I think our back four is the best outside Celtic - playing in a traditional role anyway, SDM and Lewis are not wing-backs. Our midfield has a strong core but could do with a midfield general and some more effective wide players if we're not going with wing backs. We have a striker in jason, who is up there with anyone outside Celtic, but we've yet to find the right partner. Top 3 is a realistic goal for next year with some targeted strengthening.
I should caveat this by saying that obviously I don't see the team play nearly as much as you (or lots of others) so I totally bow to your more informed opinion. My impression though is that you're right about the defence and Cummings but you're glossing the midfield a bit, and when you add up that number of players plus good replacements you and [MENTION=1476]Greenmachine[/MENTION] are not too far apart.

The key I think is the inconsistency. I don't feel it's as simple as 'motivation' or something. I just think more limited players are capable of being good only more occasionally than skilled ones, and we have several too many of the type who are not able to deliver a constant level of performance.

As fans we mentally rate players and expect them to be basically the same within a point or two of difference most games, but I have a feeling that maybe that ignores the complexity of what's going on. Basically I think mediocre footballers can actually be pretty good, but just not that often. And - to be frank - we have rather a lot of that kind of footballer.

So I think you're right, top three might be attainable. But Greenmachine is also right, and it'll need seven players. But to me that's not an unreasonable course of action.

- - - Updated - - -

According to Transfermarkt Hibs total value and average value of players would be 5th.

Celtc. £48.62m £1.87m
Sevco £11.86m £494k
Gunts £9.52m £366k
Sheep £7.54m £377k
Hibernian FC. £7.25m £279k

Then it's

Hamilton. £6.55m £193k
Ross County. £6.42m £279k
St Johnstone. £6.10m £265k
ICT. £5.36m £223k
Motherwell. £5.27m £211k
Kilmarnock. £5.16m £184k
Partick Thistle. £5.08m £231k
Dundee. £5.02m £239k
I suppose if you were looking at that purely financially you'd fkin hope to be that far ahead if your team was worth over four times your next competitor's value. :g:

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not saying that there are six Premiership clubs who are clearly superior to Hibs, what I am saying is that with the squad we have at the moment IMO Hibs would struggle to finish in the top 6. I'm not trying to be smart or anything, but having been down in this league for three years now there is a danger that fans become so used to seeing the team winning most weeks in this league that we naturally assume (falsely IMO) that means that we have a very good team that would do well in the league above. I think we have a few very good players...Cummings, McGinn, Hanlon, McGregor and possibly McGeogh and Fyvie , but we have several who look quite good in this league but IMO would be no more than mid-table or bottom 6 players in the league above. The team has an inherent flaw in that we only have one reliable goalscorer. That will be nothing like good enough in the league above, particularly as it is a strong possibility we will lose that player in the summer. We need goals...much more goals than we get just now...when we get back up. What we will also find is that we will be punished more for defensive mistakes by most teams. We get away with that in this league because most of the teams aren't good enough to take advantage.

Having Lennon as manager next season will help enormously as he has plenty of experience of managing at a high level and he has a winners mentality which is essential if we are going to do anything. With his experience in the game I am confident he will know where we are weak and where we need strengthening. I hope very much that the board back him with sufficient funds to bring in the 7 players I feel we will need if we are going to make any significant impact on the league above.
Yep.

Read 1875's (marvellous) Just Backs and imagine that the ones where we are rubbish stay rubbish and the ones where we are good turn into 50-50s. That will not equal a high level finish.
 

Hibs v Gunts

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