Edinburgh to become a 20mph city

[Power]

Cycling on a day like today is an option for most folk right enough.

Did 20miles nae bother. Worse yesterday morning.

 

[Shades]

How does the parcel delivery driver 'price it in' when he's on a fixed rate for his amount of drops? 12 hour shifts will just become even longer.

Absolutely. That is one trade which gets the living shit kicked out of them continuously.

 

[baggageandfibs]

How does the parcel delivery driver 'price it in' when he's on a fixed rate for his amount of drops? 12 hour shifts will just become even longer.

I would be amazed if consumers noticed any increase in the price of goods due to supposed increased delivery times. Even if there was an increase would it be a fair trade off for making delivery drivers safer drivers? I think it would. Some UPS and Royal Mail near me definitely go well over 30 now.

As to your point about the drivers fixed rate he would either have to negotiate a new fixed rate or deliver fewer parcels and increase his charges although, as mentioned above, I think it'll make almost no difference. That's market economics. There might be some marginal losers but overall this will make the city a better place to be in IMO.

 

[baggageandfibs]

How will it make the city a better place to be?

Slower traffic, less traffic, more cycle/pedestrian friendly, less noise, fewer accidents.

 

[Shades]

I would be amazed if consumers noticed any increase in the price of goods due to supposed increased delivery times. Even if there was an increase would it be a fair trade off for making delivery drivers safer drivers? I think it would. Some UPS and Royal Mail near me definitely go well over 30 now.As to your point about the drivers fixed rate he would either have to negotiate a new fixed rate or deliver fewer parcels and increase his charges although, as mentioned above, I think it'll make almost no difference. That's market economics. There might be some marginal losers but overall this will make the city a better place to be in IMO.

It's a market that is completely skewed by outside influence. You keep saying that you think it will make no difference even when it's show how and why it will make a difference. Your talking about couriers re-negotiating their contracts? If you think they can do that then you've no idea how much of a barrel the contracters have them over. There are always, and I really mean 100 times out of a 100, other drivers who will do it for the same money. It is a massively competitive cut throat market and some struggle to make a wage as it is. If you are quite happy for them to be squeezed further so you can cycle a bit quicker (hypocrite no?) round the city then good for you.

 

[Peanut]

Slower traffic, less traffic, more cycle/pedestrian friendly, less noise, fewer accidents.

I am unconvinced.

Slower perhaps, though there would be widespread avoidance, just as there is now. I can't see how making motors spend more time on the road would reduce traffic in the unlikely state that the limits were observed. Every measure the council has taken to make the city more cycle and pedestrian friendly has failed -- why would this dog's breakfast of a policy succeed? Less noise? As cars designed to drive at optimum levels in higher gears drive in second and third gear? Doubt it.

But fewer accidents? That's caught my attention. Do you have any evidence in support of that? Genuinely interested.

 

[baggageandfibs]

It's a market that is completely skewed by outside influence. You keep saying that you think it will make no difference even when it's show how and why it will make a difference. Your talking about couriers re-negotiating their contracts? If you think they can do that then you've no idea how much of a barrel the contracters have them over. There are always, and I really mean 100 times out of a 100, other drivers who will do it for the same money. It is a massively competitive cut throat market and some struggle to make a wage as it is. If you are quite happy for them to be squeezed further so you can cycle a bit quicker (hypocrite no?) round the city then good for you.

As I said we will all have to adapt due to climate change and other social developments. That's life. Delivery driving is a relatively new phenomenon due to the advent of companies like Amazon. Are you seriously saying that progressive social change which delivers benefits for the majority should be curbed so that commercial vehicles can continue to be given preferential treatment? You can't set policy by those affected on the margins.

- - - Updated - - -

I am unconvinced.

Slower perhaps, though there would be widespread avoidance, just as there is now. I can't see how making motors spend more time on the road would reduce traffic in the unlikely state that the limits were observed. Every measure the council has taken to make the city more cycle and pedestrian friendly has failed -- why would this dog's breakfast of a policy succeed? Less noise? As cars designed to drive at optimum levels in higher gears drive in second and third gear? Doubt it.

But fewer accidents? That's caught my attention. Do you have any evidence in support of that? Genuinely interested.

Check out the twentys plenty website (sorry don't know how to link). The info is not presented that well but the myth buster is useful.

 

[Peanut]

As I said we will all have to adapt due to climate change and other social developments. That's life. Delivery driving is a relatively new phenomenon due to the advent of companies like Amazon. Are you seriously saying that progressive social change which delivers benefits for the majority should be curbed so that commercial vehicles can continue to be given preferential treatment? You can't set policy by those affected on the margins.

I was wondering when someone from the cycling fraternity would mount the high moral ground.

 

[Shades]

As I said we will all have to adapt due to climate change and other social developments. That's life. Delivery driving is a relatively new phenomenon due to the advent of companies like Amazon. Are you seriously saying that progressive social change which delivers benefits for the majority should be curbed so that commercial vehicles can continue to be given preferential treatment? You can't set policy by those affected on the margins.

Yet you'd like policy favouring cyclists? Delivery driving is as old as the roads are, what are you talking about? There is a link above which questions the climate change benefits of slower traffic also - the benefits in your prior post are weak and wholly questionable, some are quite blatantly wrong. I think slower traffic was about the only one that was clearly correct.

 

[baggageandfibs]

I was wondering when someone from the cycling fraternity would mount the high moral ground.

I am an irregular cyclist these days, use the car far more often, and am not affiliated to any cycle groups so you are off the mark there. I am a dad to two wee boys though and it genuinely scares and angers me the speed some people drive at.

- - - Updated - - -

Yet you'd like policy favouring cyclists? Delivery driving is as old as the roads are, what are you talking about? There is a link above which questions the climate change benefits of slower traffic also - the benefits in your prior post are weak and wholly questionable, some are quite blatantly wrong. I think slower traffic was about the only one that was clearly correct.

Come on now, there has been a major growth in delivery driving since internet shopping, you can't seriously doubt that? Also what is blatantly wrong, weak, questionable about my claimed benefits? Genuinely interested?

 

[BurbankHibee]

Cycling on a day like today is an option for most folk right enough.

Cycling and an outdoor "cafe culture", two of the council's barmy obsessions.

 

[Peanut]

I am an irregular cyclist these days, use the car far more often, and am not affiliated to any cycle groups so you are off the mark there. I am a dad to two wee boys though and it genuinely scares and angers me the speed some people drive at.

- - - Updated - - -



Come on now, there has been a major growth in delivery driving since internet shopping, you can't seriously doubt that? Also what is blatantly wrong, weak, questionable about my claimed benefits? Genuinely interested?

I didn't say you were affiliated. You are a cyclist, past and present, so I was on the mark. One way or the other you were adopting the high moral tone that I find cyclists frequently revert to in debate.

Speeding angers me too. Since drivers are speeding now why should further reducing speed limits improve the situation?

 

[Shades]

I am an irregular cyclist these days, use the car far more often, and am not affiliated to any cycle groups so you are off the mark there. I am a dad to two wee boys though and it genuinely scares and angers me the speed some people drive at.- - - Updated - - -Come on now, there has been a major growth in delivery driving since internet shopping, you can't seriously doubt that? Also what is blatantly wrong, weak, questionable about my claimed benefits? Genuinely interested?

That's not what you said. You said it's s relatively new phenomenon. It's plainly not. There is also not much of a spike since online shopping either. Online shopping is only a small part of courier work and even before online shopping there were catalogues. There are all manner of legal documents, medical stuff and passports delivered by couriers and that's before we look at the retail side which is wholly unchanged because of online shopping. My wife was previously the Ops manager for a DX depot by the way so I can speak with some knowledge here. I cannot see how there will be less traffic. In fact if cars are longer on the roads then surely that will mean more traffic? If there will be fewer accidents then I'd like to see a study on that. The noise one is daft and the pollution one is contested by the AA no less.

 

[Jack]

Slower traffic, less traffic, more cycle/pedestrian friendly, less noise, fewer accidents.

Is there evidence to prove the above and that it will actually be of benefit?

1. As shown in the AA link earlier slower traffic means higher fuel consumption and emissions. I don't see how that benefits anyone.

2. Nothing suggests there will be less traffic. Indeed 20 cars passing at 20mph will take longer to pass a given point and may give the impression that there's more traffic.

3. See 1 and 2, plus more fumes to inhale.

4. Vehicles moving slowly make more noise - lower gears, higher revs.

5. Not proven. Going slower does not mean fewer accidents. Motorways are the safest category of road with fewer accidents per travelled mile. I'm not suggesting 70mph in built up areas :-)

I drive through many extended 20mph areas in my job when I'm going through some Fife villages. No doubt about it, it's boring. One could easily find oneself thinking about things other than driving and becoming less safe as a result. One doesn't want to encourage multi tasking when the only task must be driving.

 

[baggageandfibs]

Is there evidence to prove the above and that it will actually be of benefit?

1. As shown in the AA link earlier slower traffic means higher fuel consumption and emissions. I don't see how that benefits anyone.

2. Nothing suggests there will be less traffic. Indeed 20 cars passing at 20mph will take longer to pass a given point and may give the impression that there's more traffic.

3. See 1 and 2, plus more fumes to inhale.

4. Vehicles moving slowly make more noise - lower gears, higher revs.

5. Not proven. Going slower does not mean fewer accidents. Motorways are the safest category of road with fewer accidents per travelled mile. I'm not suggesting 70mph in built up areas :-)

I drive through many extended 20mph areas in my job when I'm going through some Fife villages. No doubt about it, it's boring. One could easily find oneself thinking about things other than driving and becoming less safe as a result. One doesn't want to encourage multi tasking when the only task must be driving.

If you are interested please check out the twentys plenty website, in particular the myth busters FAQ, rebuts all your points.

Shades, you clearly know much more about the delivery industry than me, so will back off from that one. However the point remains - all professions throughout history have had to evolve to changing environments / circumstances. Delivery driving is no different surely?

 

[Jack]

If you are interested please check out the twentys plenty website, in particular the myth busters FAQ, rebuts all your points.

Shades, you clearly know much more about the delivery industry than me, so will back off from that one. However the point remains - all professions throughout history have had to evolve to changing environments / circumstances. Delivery driving is no different surely?

Can you provide us with a link or quotes?

 

[baggageandfibs]

I didn't say you were affiliated. You are a cyclist, past and present, so I was on the mark. One way or the other you were adopting the high moral tone that I find cyclists frequently revert to in debate.

Speeding angers me too. Since drivers are speeding now why should further reducing speed limits improve the situation?

Sorry thought I detected from your implication that I was taking the moral high ground on behalf of the 'cycling fraternity' that I was some sort of cycling evangelist.

I agree policing the new limit will be tricky. The police have effectively said they won't actively police it unless it is outside a school or other high risk area. It will bring average speeds down though as people will not want to be caught doing 30 in a 20.

- - - Updated - - -

Can you provide us with a link or quotes?

Sorry, don't know how to link. Google it though, plenty of studies out there, including the twentys plenty site I mentioned above.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

Absolutely. That is one trade which gets the living shit kicked out of them continuously.

Dinae gie me that!! Replacement phone from O2 the other day. ' DPD Express can offer two time slots.....' The 7.00 pm to 1300 will be spiffing' said I. The snazzy parcel track said 7.00 - 1300. Jolly good. 1900 it turns up....'Sorry aboot the wait mate ...busy as fuck the day!!!' Even if the Labour/SNP Coagulation Cooncil had reduced the road speed to 2 mph, I would not have received it when I was told.

BIG G

 

[southfieldhibby]

Drove along Craigentinny Road this am at 20mph to see how slow it felt.My gut reaction?No way will it be observed.

 

[Dub]

Drove along Craigentinny Road this am at 20mph to see how slow it felt.My gut reaction?No way will it be observed.

At which point did you think "Fukk sake I could walk quicker than this".

Someone mentioned earlier in a post about concentration which is a point I agree with. At 20 mph you are more likely to get bored and lose concentration IMO.

 

[zondervan]

Another point to consider is signage.

At the moment, any street with street lights is deemed a 30mph zone. No signage is required UNLESS the speed limit varies from 30mph.

So, this means that 80% of our streets are now going to require signage at various intervals (e.g. every junction) so that the new limit is known and can legally be enforced.

This will come at a significant cost, and I am sure the beardy's from groups like The Cockburn Association won't be too chuffed when these signs start appearing all over the New Town/Old Town.

 

[PILTONSTANY]

Another point to consider is signage.

At the moment, any street with street lights is deemed a 30mph zone. No signage is required UNLESS the speed limit varies from 30mph.

So, this means that 80% of our streets are now going to require signage at various intervals (e.g. every junction) so that the new limit is known and can legally be enforced.

This will come at a significant cost, and I am sure the beardy's from groups like The Cockburn Association won't be too chuffed when these signs start appearing all over the New Town/Old Town.

Would they not just tell everyone that any street with lights is now a 20 zone and put signs up where you can go faster?

The police hardly enforce it anyway,it's reliant on goodwill

 

[zondervan]

Would they not just tell everyone that any street with lights is now a 20 zone and put signs up where you can go faster?

The police hardly enforce it anyway,it's reliant on goodwill

Legally I would imagine not. The speed limits are national so how does someone, say, from outside Edinburgh know this they are breaking the law when going faster than 20mph as soon as the cross the "border" from Midlothian into Edinburgh?

Happy to be proved wrong on this but it probably something the council won't be quick to tell you about!

 

[Smurf]

Instead of wasting our money why not reduce our council tax or even better put it into our schools where it's needed. Shower of wankers.

 

[Brainwrong]

Another point to consider is signage.

At the moment, any street with street lights is deemed a 30mph zone. No signage is required UNLESS the speed limit varies from 30mph.

So, this means that 80% of our streets are now going to require signage at various intervals (e.g. every junction) so that the new limit is known and can legally be enforced.

This will come at a significant cost, and I am sure the beardy's from groups like The Cockburn Association won't be too chuffed when these signs start appearing all over the New Town/Old Town.

You can bet yer bottom dollar the New Town won't be affected by unsightly signs.

 

[PILTONSTANY]

Legally I would imagine not. The speed limits are national so how does someone, say, from outside Edinburgh know this they are breaking the law when going faster than 20mph as soon as the cross the "border" from Midlothian into Edinburgh?

Happy to be proved wrong on this but it probably something the council won't be quick to tell you about!

Legal wise i think you're right but it seems to vary due to circumstance Good Practice Guide on 20mph Speed Restrictions | Transport Scotland

That explains a few things,seems it will go Scotland(possibly UK) wide eventually.

My cheap and probably illegal way would be just to put signs up on every road into Edinburgh telling them it's 20mph as standard except where sign posted (this would probably be too easy and cheap for our council) :hmmm

 

[Jack]

Will guys in front cars waving red flags be seen as the next step forward?

 

[Westside Green]

I would be amazed if consumers noticed any increase in the price of goods due to supposed increased delivery times. Even if there was an increase would it be a fair trade off for making delivery drivers safer drivers? I think it would. Some UPS and Royal Mail near me definitely go well over 30 now.

As to your point about the drivers fixed rate he would either have to negotiate a new fixed rate or deliver fewer parcels and increase his charges although, as mentioned above, I think it'll make almost no difference. That's market economics. There might be some marginal losers but overall this will make the city a better place to be in IMO.

Self employed sub contract drivers have an area to cover (their run) and if they get say 100 deliveries it could easily mean a couple of extra hours each day, if it now takes over 3 minutes to cover each mile instead of 2 minutes odd. Add in any collections that have to be at the depot by a certain time to be forwarded on to their destination and that creates a backlog of undelivered parcels unless the driver is prepared to go back out at night. More chance of the companies cutting the rate than agreeing to an increase as most of them don't care about the drivers, i've even been threatened with a fine for delivering early.

 

[Zitellis Heid]

Load of fucking bollocks!

As a time-served mechanic, and a driver who did the 20 MPH challenge to and from work today, I can tell you this:

My car revved like a bastard, 2nd or sluggish 3rd, and fuel consumption soared, how is this pish better for pollution? :dunno:

The answer is this: Buses overtaking me, and cyclists (who still like to get off the bike and press the Green Man button, only to break the law, and jump them anyhow)

And the biggest thing I noticed was road rage. Lots of it.

This is a fuck-up. Before a ball is kicked, this will be a massive fuck-up.

Bookmark this entry. All of you. :coffee:

 

[SKII]

Drove along Craigentinny Road this am at 20mph to see how slow it felt.My gut reaction?No way will it be observed.

I tried it this morning too...on an empty main artery road that will soon be a 20mph zone. Just after 6.15am this morning. Not another car on the road. Didn't get out of 3rd gear. Car quickly told me my fuel consumption was poorer thanks to its dynamic fuel consumption digital display...time added to my journey today at silly am in the morning? Another 20 mins on the trip. Now some of that is without doubt due to being unfortunate in hitting some junctions just as the lights have gone red - that can be a lottery most mornings - but the impact on my drive was clear.

The car was gagging to get into a higher gear/lower rev situation. You could feel it. They're not designed to drive in 3rd gear for long periods of time. The potential for drifting off is also high - it's so slow it is literally boring. Boredom kills too. I tried a couple of the same stretches at 25 mph on the way back home. The car was happier, the speed was just enough to keep boredom at bay...20 mph is too slow.

 

[Jack]

Sorry thought I detected from your implication that I was taking the moral high ground on behalf of the 'cycling fraternity' that I was some sort of cycling evangelist.

I agree policing the new limit will be tricky. The police have effectively said they won't actively police it unless it is outside a school or other high risk area. It will bring average speeds down though as people will not want to be caught doing 30 in a 20.

- - - Updated - - -



Sorry, don't know how to link. Google it though, plenty of studies out there, including the twentys plenty site I mentioned above.

The evidence of real life from the posts following yours seems to suggest the contrary.

 

[SG7nil]

In terms of the signage, yes it's going to cost and yes it's going to clutter up many heritage sites in the city with unsightly and (IMHO) unnecessary signs. My own street has large 20's painted in circles every 100 yards or so on the road surface too. Takes time and money to do these things.... Bear in mind my street is so narrow that cars have to park on the pavement and that anyone who can drive along it any faster than 20mph is either a stuntman or does not mind losing their wing mirrors it all seems very unnecessary.

 

[baggageandfibs]

The evidence of real life from the posts following yours seems to suggest the contrary.

Does it? As I said I think it will (and has been proven in other areas) to bring the average speed down, which is good enough for me as I am not particularly interested whether or not people strictly observe the limit. If everyone was driving at 25 rather than 30-35, which is currently the case, that would bring benefits. I am not a strict adherent to 20 myself. Personally I sometimes drive at 25 in 20 zones and under 20 in other 20 zones, just depends on the road conditions.

 

[Jack]

Does it? As I said I think it will (and has been proven in other areas) to bring the average speed down, which is good enough for me as I am not particularly interested whether or not people strictly observe the limit. If everyone was driving at 25 rather than 30-35, which is currently the case, that would bring benefits. I am not a strict adherent to 20 myself. Personally I sometimes drive at 25 in 20 zones and under 20 in other 20 zones, just depends on the road conditions.

Yes it does.

Your point about it bringing down average speeds is probably correct but not the points you raised earlier. If there is evidence to back them up I'm sure those writing in the posts that followed the original post would be interested to see it, as would the AA.

 

[baggageandfibs]

Yes it does.

Your point about it bringing down average speeds is probably correct but not the points you raised earlier. If there is evidence to back them up I'm sure those writing in the posts that followed the original post would be interested to see it, as would the AA.

Don't know if you checked out some of the literature on other sites I mentioned above (see link below). I can try and quote some of it but might be a bit dull. They quote an acknowledgement from the AA that emissions are likely to be reduced so maybe it is about how you measure, interpret and present the data. Also they have lots of stats about reductions in accidents, fatalities, congestion and road noise. Busting the myths

 

[Shades]

Don't know if you checked out some of the literature on other sites I mentioned above (see link below). I can try and quote some of it but might be a bit dull. They quote an acknowledgement from the AA that emissions are likely to be reduced so maybe it is about how you measure, interpret and present the data. Also they have lots of stats about reductions in accidents, fatalities, congestion and road noise. Busting the myths

Bring the limit down to 10mph and I'm sure there'll be even less accidents. Ban vehicles and there'll be none. Where to stop?

 

[baggageandfibs]

Bring the limit down to 10mph and I'm sure there'll be even less accidents. Ban vehicles and there'll be none. Where to stop?

It's not just about accidents though. There is a strong case that it provides a number of benefits for a number of groups. If you've read in to it and are still not buying it then fair enough.

 

[Smurf]

We would end up with either Hynds or Cardownie.

Which one would you opt for Kenny

Neither!

- - - Updated - - -

Instead of wasting our money why not reduce our council tax or even better put it into our schools where it's needed. Shower of $#@!s.

According to some on the Bounce this was me calling for council tax to be cut... Laughable.

 

[SKII]

According to some on the Bounce this was me calling for council tax to be cut... Laughable.

Surprised at that, K - you're the one person on here I can recall in the last few months who has posted that the Council Tax freeze has been detrimental! Maybe some people missed those posts?

 

[Shades]

Neither!- - - Updated - - -According to some on the Bounce this was me calling for council tax to be cut... Laughable.

You mean me. "Why not reduce our council tax?". Why ask that question if their were other priorities ahead of this for you? If they've got the money sloshing about there are a million other things you could have called for.

- - - Updated - - -

Surprised at that, K - you're the one person on here I can recall in the last few months who has posted that the Council Tax freeze has been detrimental! Maybe some people missed those posts?

See above.