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Christchurch Terrorist Attack

Chester Perry

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The far left are just as bad,by standing shoulder to shoulder with those murdered by a Nazi, by asking people to join unions, by supporting LGBTmovements,and supporting the fight against Womans' oppression,and supporting kids who march against climate change,and marching against nuclear weapons and saying no to the arms industry and saving the NHS, and saying that rail and other privately owned industries should be nationalised and saying smash the fash just like their grandads did.
LGBTQ you horrriic cu t
 

moathibby

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Again off topic, but the biggest problem with both the left and the right is the unwillingness to actually talk and debate any more. It’s turned in to a shouting match of who can shout the loudest.
So I'm not talking on this forum?
 

moathibby

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If I cared.Someone who was beaten up by casuals coming out of Fire Island and beaten up again by a homophobe in Regent St.
 

SuperTortolano

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So I'm not talking on this forum?
It wasn't directed to anyone personally here, just the way the world is going. Groups from the left and right seem to turn up to protest screaming, shouting and fighting each other, rather than having a civilized debate. Extreme views on both sides have gone too far.
 

jock3

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Guy's a basket case, of the Anders Brevik school. I don't think governments do enough to condemn far right terrorism as well as Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. I think arseholes like Trump should take a lot of the blame for whipping up race hatred and intolerance. We need to condemn neo-liberal governments like the current one who actively promote division in society.
 
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SuperTortolano

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Guy's a basket case, of the Anders Brevik school. I don't think governments do enough to condemn far right terrorism as well as Islamophobia and anti-Semitism. I think arseholes like Trump should take a lot of the blame for whipping up race hatred and intolerance. We need to condemn neo-liberal governments like the current one who actively promote division in society.
Blaming this person or that group on an individual carrying out a disgusting act like the NZ one is bull shit. We had multiple invindents under Obama. The Florida night club, Vegas and I’m sure a shit ton more. Also had heinous acts of terrorism in Belgium, France and the UK. These individuals aren’t spurred on by idiots like Trump, or anyone else. Most are mentally ill and on prescription drugs with serious side affects.
 

superbam

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Blaming this person or that group on an individual carrying out a disgusting act like the NZ one is bull shit. We had multiple invindents under Obama. The Florida night club, Vegas and I’m sure a shit ton more. Also had heinous acts of terrorism in Belgium, France and the UK. These individuals aren’t spurred on by idiots like Trump, or anyone else. Most are mentally ill and on prescription drugs with serious side affects.
Would you apply the same analysis to Islamic extremists? I agree with you to a certain extent, but these attacks don't happen in a cultural vacuum and if we want to prevent them, we need to understand how folk become so radicalized and able to dehumanize other groups to the extent they are prepared to massacre folk, even if they do have pre-existing vulnerabilities like certain psychiatric problems or personal histories etc.

In the US in particular, the likes of Trump and commentators like Shapiro and others on the right tend to point to Islamic extremist terrorism as evidence there is something inherently problematic about Islam and Muslims collectively, yet attacks that are inspired by far right ideology (accounting for the majority of casualties from terrorism in the US in recent years) are often dismissed as the actions of individual crazies, the political justification being irrelevant. We should avoid hysterical and simplistic attempts to assign blame, but in all cases we should try to understand and learn from the factors which contribute to such attacks, whether that's wahabi imams or far right polemicists.
 

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Attacks on four mosques in Birmingham last night...
 

SuperTortolano

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Would you apply the same analysis to Islamic extremists? I agree with you to a certain extent, but these attacks don't happen in a cultural vacuum and if we want to prevent them, we need to understand how folk become so radicalized and able to dehumanize other groups to the extent they are prepared to massacre folk, even if they do have pre-existing vulnerabilities like certain psychiatric problems or personal histories etc.

In the US in particular, the likes of Trump and commentators like Shapiro and others on the right tend to point to Islamic extremist terrorism as evidence there is something inherently problematic about Islam and Muslims collectively, yet attacks that are inspired by far right ideology (accounting for the majority of casualties from terrorism in the US in recent years) are often dismissed as the actions of individual crazies, the political justification being irrelevant. We should avoid hysterical and simplistic attempts to assign blame, but in all cases we should try to understand and learn from the factors which contribute to such attacks, whether that's wahabi imams or far right polemicists.
In the US we have a lot of right wing militia groups all over the country. They are very anti government and immigration, but very very rarely carry out random attacks.

I think people are and have lost touch with humanity. The mobile phone and internet has desensitized a lot of people. I also think here and in the UK there are a lot of citizens that are strongly against immigration and taking in refugees from Syria and other countries. This is not brought on by figure heads, it’s just not what a large percentage of the people want.

The whole mess and attacks from both sides is ultimately created from war and attacks, I just don’t think it’s every going to stop.

These attacks will never stop happening, blaming or banning objects and people will never solve the issue. A person with the will, will always find a way to carry out whatever attack it is they plan.
 

superbam

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In the US we have a lot of right wing militia groups all over the country. They are very anti government and immigration, but very very rarely carry out random attacks.

I think people are and have lost touch with humanity. The mobile phone and internet has desensitized a lot of people. I also think here and in the UK there are a lot of citizens that are strongly against immigration and taking in refugees from Syria and other countries. This is not brought on by figure heads, it’s just not what a large percentage of the people want.

The whole mess and attacks from both sides is ultimately created from war and attacks, I just don’t think it’s every going to stop.

These attacks will never stop happening, blaming or banning objects and people will never solve the issue. A person with the will, will always find a way to carry out whatever attack it is they plan.
Its not so much the organized militias, more folk acting on their own who claim a white supremacist or related motive. Much more deadlier than Islamic extremism or the almost non existent deadly leftist violence over the past few years in the US. And being against immigration is not the issue. Promoting the idea that the white population is being systematically replaced by a global Jewish elite is rather more dangerous. Or even as Trump has done in his rallies, suggest that "Islam has a problem with america" and needs to be subsequently "dealt with". And that shit is not confined to the borders of the US, as yank cultural capital travels far and wide, including in far right circles. Even among the relatively small extreme right community in Ireland today, you can see the language and ideas of American white nationalists imported wholesale.

I'm an American, I'm a bit more ambitious for the country than you are. Doesn't happen everywhere. A country with our wealth should be able to get our heads round it and take evidence based measures to stop it happening.

I'm not sure I agree with you that anti-immigrant sentiment is organic. There's a vested interest in those who benefit most from the status quo to ferment that kind of hostility, and you can see it in the media and in political rhetoric. It distracts people from analysing structural issues in society and who is benefiting. Trumps a master of it, classic divide and rule tactics employed by elites for centuries
 
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SuperTortolano

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Its not so much the organized militias, more folk acting on their own who claim a white supremacist or related motive. Much more deadlier than Islamic extremism or the almost non existent deadly leftist violence over the past few years in the US. And being against immigration is not the issue. Promoting the idea that the white population is being systematically replaced by a global Jewish elite is rather more dangerous. Or even as Trump has done in his rallies, suggest that "Islam has a problem with america" and needs to be subsequently "dealt with". And that shit is not confined to the borders of the US, as yank cultural capital travels far and wide, including in far right circles. Even among the relatively small extreme right community in Ireland today, you can see the language and ideas of American white nationalists imported wholesale.

I'm an American, I'm a bit more ambitious for the country than you are. Doesn't happen everywhere. A country with our wealth should be able to get our heads round it and take evidence based measures to stop it happening.

I'm not sure I agree with you that anti-immigrant sentiment is organic. There's a vested interest in those who benefit most from the status quo to ferment that kind of hostility, and you can see it in the media and in political rhetoric. It distracts people from analysing structural issues in society and who is benefiting. Trumps a master of it, classic divide and rule tactics employed by elites for centuries
I don't blame Trump for these attacks, or what he has to say influences them. Under Obama we had multiple attacks and rioting from Black Lifes Matter groups, Ferguson being one of the biggest. I didn't hold Obama responsible for those events. just like I don't hold Trump responsible for these. Yes groups will associate with political sides, but that shouldn't make them responsible.

I hate to lay blame to any one thing for these attacks, as I believe the individual takes ALL the responsibility. If I was to pinpoint one major difference from today and say 40-50 years ago, it would be social media. This guy streamed the attack live and left some detailed manifesto. He wanted the notoriety of this attack, and got what he wanted. Social media allows all these terror groups to engage and share there sick ideologies. I lay blame to that aspect of society than anything else. These twisted fucks find other like minded scum and the hatred evolves and grows throw groups and chats. Before the internet groups like that barely existed.
 

superbam

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I don't blame Trump for these attacks, or what he has to say influences them. Under Obama we had multiple attacks and rioting from Black Lifes Matter groups, Ferguson being one of the biggest. I didn't hold Obama responsible for those events. just like I don't hold Trump responsible for these. Yes groups will associate with political sides, but that shouldn't make them responsible.
Not sure there's an equivalence here at all. Politically motivated killings by folk linked to extreme right movements killed at least 50 people in 2018 in the US. That dwarfs any deadly violence linked to BLM. I'm no fan of Obama, but I can't see any evidence of him making any comments that could be interpreted as encouraging hostility towards a particular race or group, like Trump has done. What comments did you have in mind?
 

moathibby

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Papers like the Sun, the Mail and the Express have been spewing out anti islamic filth for years now,look at the way the news is reported.Islamic terrorists are evil,fundamentalist extremists,psychopaths.This Nazi-because that's what he is, is being pictured as nice wee boy, bullied at school because he was fat, gone wrong.Every white guy that does this is a 'lone wolf'whilst every Muslim terrorist is 'part of an evil ideology'.
Also Trump and folk like Johnson are responsible for this.Their anti immagration racist stance has given a nod and a wink to every far right group going to go and do this.
 

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The thing is people assume that migrants are coming here out of choice. Some maybe are but can you imagine leaving your home in the knowledge that you might never see it or your loved ones ever again?
There's an inscription on a stone on the links at Cromarty that describes the scene as a ship full of poor Scottish migrants left for the New World during the Highland Clearances.
The Cleopatra as she swept past the town of Cromarty was greeted with three cheers by the crowds of inhabitants and the emigrants returned the salute but mingled with the dash of the waves and the murmurs of the breeze their faint huzzahs seemed rather sounds of wailing and lamentation than of a congratulatory farewell...
Some of the biggest drivers of migration are global warming, iniquitous trade policies and the fact that Western countries have exploited and interfered with the running of other lands until they provide neither a place of safety nor a living for people. If folk don't want migrants coming here, they need to put more effort into creating opportunities where the migrants are leaving from.
 

SuperTortolano

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Not sure there's an equivalence here at all. Politically motivated killings by folk linked to extreme right movements killed at least 50 people in 2018 in the US. That dwarfs any deadly violence linked to BLM. I'm no fan of Obama, but I can't see any evidence of him making any comments that could be interpreted as encouraging hostility towards a particular race or group, like Trump has done. What comments did you have in mind?
I'm not comparing any two groups, I'm just saying the social media and underground internet groups are a lot more dangerous and resposible for hate and violence, than figure heads like Trump.
 

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