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At least 120 schools adopt gender-neutral uniforms, charity says

egb_hibs

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[MENTION=1429]Brainwrong[/MENTION]

Asserting that genders are male and females, with a small number of people feeling their brain and organs are split one and the other is not 'destroying individuality' or insisting on homogeneity - it is describing reality. Responding sympathetically to that small number of people, need not and should not involve blurring that truth, especially with regard to kids who are coming to terms with reality. And we should not be endangering multiple kids who are not transgendered in a truth scorning quest to bend reality in a misguided expression of sympathy for the one who is.

Incidentally on your blue yonder clarifications - I'm not a world is going to end kinda guy, not worried about asteroids, plagues, parched planets, nuclear wars or all the other things people use to distract themselves from present concerns. One of those is a threat to the continued welfare systems on which western societies are premised. That may end, for many reasons, but central among them is the collapsed ratio of workers to dependents due to shrunken birth rates. That in turn has many roots, but I'd take some persuading that our increasing confusions in matters of gender and sexuality are completely divorced from our failure to fulfil the only purpose for which those things and we in our entirety have evolved (if you are an atheist).

I also expect that our endless experiments are not divorced from having some of the unhappiest youngsters in the world, which I think predates the financial crash and associated hardships.
 

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[MENTION=1429]Brainwrong[/MENTION]

Asserting that genders are male and females, with a small number of people feeling their brain and organs are split one and the other is not 'destroying individuality' or insisting on homogeneity - it is describing reality. Responding sympathetically to that small number of people, need not and should not involve blurring that truth, especially with regard to kids who are coming to terms with reality. And we should not be endangering multiple kids who are not transgendered in a truth scorning quest to bend reality in a misguided expression of sympathy for the one who is.

Incidentally on your blue yonder clarifications - I'm not a world is going to end kinda guy, not worried about asteroids, plagues, parched planets, nuclear wars or all the other things people use to distract themselves from present concerns. One of those is a threat to the continued welfare systems on which western societies are premised. That may end, for many reasons, but central among them is the collapsed ratio of workers to dependents due to shrunken birth rates. That in turn has many roots, but I'd take some persuading that our increasing confusions in matters of gender and sexuality are completely divorced from our failure to fulfil the only purpose for which those things and we in our entirety have evolved (if you are an atheist).
Sorry, man. I was referring to you when you said that you didn't want some kind of homogenised lack of individuality, everyone the same. Pretty sure you said that in your previous post. Not easy to scan back on the phone the now.

I doubt we'll agree on this, but, in case I've not explained myself well enough or at all perhaps; what I'm saying is not a rejection of the existence of male or female, it's just the inclusion of the non binary. And, really space for those that are on the spectrum, as we all are really to just 'be'.

There are, as I conceded above, plenty folk that fit what you're saying and would deny biological realities to suit an agenda. I'm not one of them.

To be honest, falling birth rates surely have to be deeply rooted in freely available, jonnies, abortion, feminism, workplace equality and the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family. Dinnae think sexual confusion or gender dysphoria or whatever would have much to to with that. Like, I'm sure it will in some cases. But, like you say, these numbers are low, eh?

Folk have a choice, too much choice probably. And, I don't think folk growing up as quickly as we used to. Women are mostly no longer shamed for not getting married and or not having kids. If biology didn't send a fair amount of women temporarily mental when the clock starts ticking then we'd probably already have died out as a species!





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egb_hibs

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Sorry, man. I was referring to you when you said that you didn't want some kind of homogenised lack of individuality, everyone the same. Pretty sure you said that in your previous post. Not easy to scan back on the phone the now.
i did, but asserting reality ain't that !
I doubt we'll agree on this, but, in case I've not explained myself well enough or at all perhaps; what I'm saying is not a rejection of the existence of male or female, it's just the inclusion of the non binary. And, really space for those that are on the spectrum, as we all are really to just 'be'.

There are, as I conceded above, plenty folk that fit what you're saying and would deny biological realities to suit an agenda. I'm not one of them.

To be honest, falling birth rates surely have to be deeply rooted in freely available, jonnies, abortion, feminism, workplace equality and the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family. Dinnae think sexual confusion or gender dysphoria or whatever would have much to to with that. Like, I'm sure it will in some cases. But, like you say, these numbers are low, eh?

Folk have a choice, too much choice probably. And, I don't think folk growing up as quickly as we used to. Women are mostly no longer shamed for not getting married and or not having kids. If biology didn't send a fair amount of women temporarily mental when the clock starts ticking then we'd probably already have died out as a species!





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a lot of the causes of lower birth rate are part of what I was describing - I'm not suggesting it is down to a microscopic quantity of transgender people, but to our general confusion which manifests in other things you listed as it does in our confusion as to what gender is and indeed, why it is.

Got to pick you up on spectrums and non binaries; there isn't one and it is binary. Unless you are invoking some metaphysics, you're stuck with their being two genders as the most central fact of how we have evolved, the purpose of those genders being the only thing evolution selects for. 'Authentic' transgendered people are I suspect, and as I have voiced before, a product of the fact that halve of foetueses transition from female to male; I suspect some kind of glitch in that process causes inconsistent brain and organ development, just as in other cases it produces people who are intersex from an organ point of view. If it's not physiological then it's inherently bogus - sorry to be blunt - as people are identifying with something they cannot experience in any way - they are altering themselves to fit an idea they have absorbed as an observer.

If you want to counter argue for your spectrum, I'm all ears - appreciate if we can stick to science based approach as common ground , you don't share my articles of faith and I may not share yours.

- - - Updated - - -

Ps interested in where you stand on trans racialism - as gender is far more 'real' than race, I will be baffled if you don't see a similar spectrum here, similarly divorced from biology.
 

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i did, but asserting reality ain't that !
a lot of the causes of lower birth rate are part of what I was describing - I'm not suggesting it is down to a microscopic quantity of transgender people, but to our general confusion which manifests in other things you listed as it does in our confusion as to what gender is and indeed, why it is.

Got to pick you up on spectrums and non binaries; there isn't one and it is binary. Unless you are invoking some metaphysics, you're stuck with their being two genders as the most central fact of how we have evolved, the purpose of those genders being the only thing evolution selects for. 'Authentic' transgendered people are I suspect, and as I have voiced before, a product of the fact that halve of foetueses transition from female to male; I suspect some kind of glitch in that process causes inconsistent brain and organ development, just as in other cases it produces people who are intersex from an organ point of view. If it's not physiological then it's inherently bogus - sorry to be blunt - as people are identifying with something they cannot experience in any way - they are altering themselves to fit an idea they have absorbed as an observer.

If you want to counter argue for your spectrum, I'm all ears - appreciate if we can stick to science based approach as common ground , you don't share my articles of faith and I may not share yours.

- - - Updated - - -

Ps interested in where you stand on trans racialism - as gender is far more 'real' than race, I will be baffled if you don't see a similar spectrum here, similarly divorced from biology.
I don't buy your confusion take. However, if it were a significant factor, making things easier and less shame based would only help this, in my opinion.

People aren't going to stop having kids because there happier!

There's blatantly a spectrum in the sense I was talking. I wasn't trying to say there are multiple types of gender. I was saying that we're all on a spectrum of masculinity and femininity. Bit of course, we are still all one or the other physiologically.

What we think we are and what we actually are physiologically are often not even close either. Listened to a great radio show where a team of people that work in radio (male & female) all took DNA tests to see who was the most typically masculine (more testosterone) and who was the most typically feminine (more oestrogen). The results were pretty ego destroying (the self proclaimed male office fairy had the most testosterone and the woman who prided her soft skills (in her own minds eye) had the least oestrogen, mind you, the others had clocked that about her).

Anyway, I suppose I'm saying that even when folk 'think' they know they're in the wrong body or when they feel they're in the right one, they can be completely wrong on all counts.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that you're far better off making peace with the body you have than making drastic irreversible changes and 100% would never say that this is something that children should be encouraged to do. I mean, they should not ever be encouraged to have surgery.

There's actually a movement of people now that are post-trans that realised they'd made a mistake, sometimes too late. Some are lucky in that they only took hormone treatments. Others are not so lucky.

Re transracialism; I don't get this. And I think it was discussed on the thread about the woman in the US who is pretty fuckin white (you mentioned her above too). I don't get it just like I don't get the gender thing really. I find the gender thing easier to accept. The racial thing seems so much like a fondness or penchant at best and a disingenuous cultural appropriation at worst.

I can conceive of gender being a struggle. Race seems like such and abstract concept that it's doesn't make sense to me that you'd feel like you were always born another construct. One that has nothing genetically to do with you.

Then again, pretty sure Ian Astbury thought he was a Native American...


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Took the wee man for an ice cream on Sunday. Two birds(oops PC) women, in front of me were asked if they were "moms" Being Mother's Day they got a free ice cream. I said I'm one of those transgender "moms" can I get a free ice cream? Crickets all round... My humors lost here :sadwalk:
 

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Took the wee man for an ice cream on Sunday. Two birds(oops PC) women, in front of me were asked if they were "moms" Being Mother's Day they got a free ice cream. I said I'm one of those transgender "moms" can I get a free ice cream? Crickets all round... My humors lost here :sadwalk:
:rollfloor
 

egb_hibs

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I don't buy your confusion take. However, if it were a significant factor, making things easier and less shame based would only help this, in my opinion.
as above, I'm hearing about it everyday - my kids know a really rather improbable number (improbable for it to be authentic transgenderism) and as I said, half of these kids identify as genders they have read about on Facebook, which are pishtakes. It's also all over my favourite newspaper who gleefully report from time to time that half of kids think they are 'fluid' in one way or another - an engineered situation that is not good at all.

People aren't going to stop having kids because there happier!
not sure what this refer to - I only mentioned happiness in respect of the unhappiness of British kids which I expect is in part due to our various manias fucking with their heads
There's blatantly a spectrum in the sense I was talking. I wasn't trying to say there are multiple types of gender. I was saying that we're all on a spectrum of masculinity and femininity. Bit of course, we are still all one or the other physiologically.

What we think we are and what we actually are physiologically are often not even close either. Listened to a great radio show where a team of people that work in radio (male & female) all took DNA tests to see who was the most typically masculine (more testosterone) and who was the most typically feminine (more oestrogen). The results were pretty ego destroying (the self proclaimed male office fairy had the most testosterone and the woman who prided her soft skills (in her own minds eye) had the least oestrogen, mind you, the others had clocked that about her).
no argument on that, we're at cross purposes there. I don't see this as implying in anyway that there is a spectrum of genders though - there are a range of traits we associate with genders, because statistically that's where they are congregated. You've noted yourself this is not correlative with sexuality never mind gender. You want to be careful here though as we'll get into forbidden territory such as why men are more typically - rather than universally - good at or disposed to things (or vice versa).
Anyway, I suppose I'm saying that even when folk 'think' they know they're in the wrong body or when they feel they're in the right one, they can be completely wrong on all counts.
what is a person if that is separate to their body?
I'm pretty much of the opinion that you're far better off making peace with the body you have than making drastic irreversible changes and 100% would never say that this is something that children should be encouraged to do. I mean, they should not ever be encouraged to have surgery.

There's actually a movement of people now that are post-trans that realised they'd made a mistake, sometimes too late. Some are lucky in that they only took hormone treatments. Others are not so lucky.
yup, the rates of trans op regret are sky high - this is integral to my point, some,people are mutitlating themselves due to mental illness and I suspect they are not being properly guided due to the baleful influence of pc
Re transracialism; I don't get this. And I think it was discussed on the thread about the woman in the US who is pretty $#@!in white (you mentioned her above too). I don't get it just like I don't get the gender thing really. I find the gender thing easier to accept. The racial thing seems so much like a fondness or penchant at best and a disingenuous cultural appropriation at worst.

I can conceive of gender being a struggle. Race seems like such and abstract concept that it's doesn't make sense to me that you'd feel like you were always born another construct. One that has nothing genetically to do with you.

Then again, pretty sure Ian Astbury thought he was a Native American...


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I think transracialism is bollocks on stilts; but the exact same bollocks as most gender patter and their different treatment is an example of contemporary wisdom being bollocks on stilts and made up on the hoof.

I think this leaves us with a tiny number of instances of 'authentic' transgenderism where brain formation is basically materially out of whack with bodily physiologically - and I'm not talking about blokes who like musicals! Where it's not rooted in physiology, it is the same as transracialism - a delusion cultivated by identity politics.
 

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as above, I'm hearing about it everyday - my kids know a really rather improbable number (improbable for it to be authentic transgenderism) and as I said, half of these kids identify as genders they have read about on Facebook, which are pishtakes. It's also all over my favourite newspaper who gleefully report from time to time that half of kids think they are 'fluid' in one way or another - an engineered situation that is not good at all.
You live in West Lothian though, eh? You're lucky they're not Huns! I'd be far more worried about that as a parent! ;)

not sure what this refer to - I only mentioned happiness in respect of the unhappiness of British kids which I expect is in part due to our various manias fucking with their heads
The happiness comment was re the confusion aspect where, if things are improved and we reduce the troubles kids & adults can often have, we'll end up with happy adults rather than non-procreating ones.

no argument on that, we're at cross purposes there. I don't see this as implying in anyway that there is a spectrum of genders though - there are a range of traits we associate with genders, because statistically that's where they are congregated. You've noted yourself this is not correlative with sexuality never mind gender. You want to be careful here though as we'll get into forbidden territory such as why men are more typically - rather than universally - good at or disposed to things (or vice versa).
Yep, I suspected we were (cross-purposes). But, I'm not bothered about talking at a level where we state facts of genders that just happen to be contrary to how folk might want to think things are.

It's pretty funny seeing the sort of wide eyed confusion in someone when they have kids and, with no conditioning from them, the kids just naturally drift to things that typically appeal to their biological sex. It really, really troubles some folk. But, the sensible/intelligent ones, they accept even if it's railing against how they thought things would be with an essential blank slate. Nope, it doesn't work like that.

what is a person if that is separate to their body?
Not sure if you're being all French Philosopher here or I'm just not getting it. Like Mr His.net. The bit of mine you quoted was about how even the most stable and sure mindset can be entirely mistaken about their identity. When their biology states clearly that they are very much one or the other and that happens to be contrary to what they are utterly sure of then it almost makes a mockery of questioning people stating they're another sex / race.

Not aimed at you but, I think we're (general we) yet to get to the real place where we can be sure from where these things stem. By these things, I mean where individuals confusion about their identity.

yup, the rates of trans op regret are sky high - this is integral to my point, some,people are mutitlating themselves due to mental illness and I suspect they are not being properly guided due to the baleful influence of pc
Correct. Agreed. Plenty stories of shrink's encouraging it as it is almost a scalp in that world (for bad shrinks).

'Oh, you got your trans wings!'
'Well of course, I've converted 5 already'

(joking-ish)

I think transracialism is bollocks on stilts; but the exact same bollocks as most gender patter and their different treatment is an example of contemporary wisdom being bollocks on stilts and made up on the hoof.

I think this leaves us with a tiny number of instances of 'authentic' transgenderism where brain formation is basically materially out of whack with bodily physiologically - and I'm not talking about blokes who like musicals! Where it's not rooted in physiology, it is the same as transracialism - a delusion cultivated by identity politics.
The difference is that I think you can base transgender in a little more science, perhaps. But transracial sounds like bandwagon jumping to me. We're pretty much saying the same thing here though.
 

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My kids school and all the others in this area have a policy of white polo shirts and school sweat shirts with a choice of black trousers or shorts.
Does thus mean the school is promoting what the op means or just a sensible dress code?
 

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My kids school and all the others in this area have a policy of white polo shirts and school sweat shirts with a choice of black trousers or shorts.Does thus mean the school is promoting what the op means or just a sensible dress code?
Depends if your bairns school lets boys wear skirts and dresses and be called Jemima. :ura:
 

egb_hibs

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You live in West Lothian though, eh? You're lucky they're not Huns! I'd be far more worried about that as a parent! ;)
no I don't...perish the thought !

The happiness comment was re the confusion aspect where, if things are improved and we reduce the troubles kids & adults can often have, we'll end up with happy adults rather than non-procreating ones.
that sounds worryingly like the screed of tambourine waving pc zealots as they go about their work; which invariably has the opposite result, as is the case here. The problem with this stuff is that when you wilfully set your face against reality, reality will bite you.

Yep, I suspected we were (cross-purposes). But, I'm not bothered about talking at a level where we state facts of genders that just happen to be contrary to how folk might want to think things are.
not sure I follow that, but, er, splendid!
It's pretty funny seeing the sort of wide eyed confusion in someone when they have kids and, with no conditioning from them, the kids just naturally drift to things that typically appeal to their biological sex. It really, really troubles some folk. But, the sensible/intelligent ones, they accept even if it's railing against how they thought things would be with an essential blank slate. Nope, it doesn't work like that.
Yup. blank slate is demonstrably a busted flush and yet hangs around, probably because almost all of secular humanism ultimately depends on it - and much of liberalism to. As I've said before, on this note and others, they have been rendered untenable by science more than even the most far out of traditional religion. The increasingly deranged excesses of the right-on, the increasing recourse to alt.truth and wilful rejection of objective reality as a factor, are, I think, a desperate last dance as deep down they know the music is soon going to stop.


Not sure if you're being all French Philosopher here or I'm just not getting it. Like Mr His.net. The bit of mine you quoted was about how even the most stable and sure mindset can be entirely mistaken about their identity. When their biology states clearly that they are very much one or the other and that happens to be contrary to what they are utterly sure of then it almost makes a mockery of questioning people stating they're another sex / race.

Not aimed at you but, I think we're (general we) yet to get to the real place where we can be sure from where these things stem. By these things, I mean where individuals confusion about their identity.
you observed a person can be correct or incorrect about their being in the right body. I am asking 'what is thees person you speak of' which by implication is distinct from their body.

Correct. Agreed. Plenty stories of shrink's encouraging it as it is almost a scalp in that world (for bad shrinks).

'Oh, you got your trans wings!'
'Well of course, I've converted 5 already'

(joking-ish)
needless to say the Pc religious police that infest the state are also implicated - threatening to remove kids from parents who don't want them to be chopped up until they make the decision as an adult, supporting parents who have decided without reference to their child's opinion, to bring it up as a different gender....

The difference is that I think you can base transgender in a little more science, perhaps. But transracial sounds like bandwagon jumping to me. We're pretty much saying the same thing here though.
i agree that is the difference; but only if you accept a science based account. This renders 90% of this stuff as bunk and collapses the wider edifices of gender politics, so it isn't want public discourse is based on.

If the priesthood want us to defer to their claims that gender is fluid, indeed a social construct - their preferred argument - then the same needs to go for race. In fact on that basis it goes more for race which is far less a reality based category (which isn't to say racial attributes don't exist, as the witch doctors would simultaneously prefer and not prefer depending on context).
 

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Gonna Moat this thread...

Well, the past few months have been interesting. My daughter is now my son! And seems truly happy in himself for the first time in years. I've researched this a fair bit, online and speaking to doctors. The general consensus seems to be that one of the three following outcomes are pretty much what's expected:

1. It's a phase where the child is freaked out by the changes in puberty.
2. Or, they will in fact eventually transition to the gender they identify most with.
3. They've just not quite accepted they're gay yet.

My job is simple; love him, support him, respect him. Easy enough, imo.
 

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I hear tales from my kids of peers who suggest that their gender identity is x, y or z. I have had to explain that x, y and z are satires ; internet pish takes of the whole phenomenon. But these kids are apparently convinced that's what they are.

That's where we are now; kids getting into this bandwagon and being so confused they can't tell between the made up stuff of identity politics and the made up stuff of folk ripping the pish out of it - and denied proper adult guidance due to the increasingly theocratic order we live under.

That said, I think we're close to a tipping point - I think the loonies are going to jump the shark and lose their grip.
Thank fuck, I'm one bouncer who dusnae miss ye.Not when you come out with this pish.
 

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My whole take on this is everyone these days is far to concerned about everyone else's lives when most people can barely get their own lives in order. If people want to be x, y or z and it makes them happy, fine. If people want to be x, y and z and then impose that upon you, then you can have an issue. But just let people live their lives however.
 

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My whole take on this is everyone these days is far to concerned about everyone else's lives when most people can barely get their own lives in order. If people want to be x, y or z and it makes them happy, fine. If people want to be x, y and z and then impose that upon you, then you can have an issue. But just let people live their lives however.
All the best to Kris and long may your son’s happiness continue.

People do give way too many fucks about other people’s lives but in many situations in life the reason to give a fuck is that someone maybe isn’t capable or informed enough about something and could end up harming either themself or someone else through ignorance or naivety. This applies to many things and not just gender reassignment.

We are in an era where boundaries are being smashed down on a daily basis and with the brilliance of that comes the danger of unregulated chaos that could really result in horrific messes. I realize that Years and Years is a work of fiction but the plot with the daughter who wanted to ‘trans’ throws up some real Black Mirroresque technological mindfucks.

My kids are about to reach the age where I’m sure they are gonna question their own identity and purpose in life and I’m fairly bricking it at what that might throw up at someone like me who always thought of himself as bohemian and open for anything....
 

Brainwrong

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All the best to Kris and long may your son’s happiness continue.

People do give way too many fucks about other people’s lives but in many situations in life the reason to give a fuck is that someone maybe isn’t capable or informed enough about something and could end up harming either themself or someone else through ignorance or naivety. This applies to many things and not just gender reassignment.

We are in an era where boundaries are being smashed down on a daily basis and with the brilliance of that comes the danger of unregulated chaos that could really result in horrific messes. I realize that Years and Years is a work of fiction but the plot with the daughter who wanted to ‘trans’ throws up some real Black Mirroresque technological mindfucks.

My kids are about to reach the age where I’m sure they are gonna question their own identity and purpose in life and I’m fairly bricking it at what that might throw up at someone like me who always thought of himself as bohemian and open for anything....
I set out rules at the start, made it clear that it is entirely inappropriate, in my opinion, for children to go through any kind of hormone therapy and particularly serious invasive medical procedures at this extremely delicate stage of their mental and physical development. My son knows I only have his best interests and safety as my priority so, accepted my stance freely. And, he does agree that it's not the time to do this. Having spoken to doctors, it's clear that a successful transition can be achieved at almost any point in life so there is no time constraint.
We're all on a spectrum, trans people have always been here. We're just more exposed to it now. And, in most western countries, trans folk no longer have to hide and suffer in silence.
My largest worry is that the stats are clear; a scarily high % of post op trans folk are not 'fixed' by the process and suicide is rife. This to me means that the concept of genitals and their reassignment is missing the trick. I think, to really progress as a society regarding gender and gender norms, we all have to get past this idea that sex organs define what gender is. Gender being an abstract concept and essentially meaningless.
 

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