And another school shooting

Two Headed Boy

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That’s the 18th shooting in a school so far in 2018 apparently. Shocking stat.
 

HenryLB

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They're all having a jolly good pray, though. So I expect that's the last one.
 

greencol

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He'll turn out to be 'white supremacist '.

Or aff his fuckkin nut.

My money is on both.
 

aggie

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Too many guns in circulation, Americans have different mindset, nothing to be done, etc, etc...


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Sir Shrink

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Clearly the answer is to arm the teachers.

Or perhaps give out weapons to the kids for self defence.

Simples.
 

BurbankHibee

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Unbelievable that an unstable teenager can legally buy a weapon (several as it turns out) of mass destruction. He's not even old enough to buy a six pack of beer !! It's absolute fucking madness over here.
 

SuperTortolano

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Unbelievable that an unstable teenager can legally buy a weapon (several as it turns out) of mass destruction. He's not even old enough to buy a six pack of beer !! It's absolute $#@!ing madness over here.
I agree, some of the laws are sheer madness. If I want to buy a six shot revolver, I need a purchasers permit, or concealed carry permit. Same with any handgun. Then I need to fill in paperwork with the seller and submit a copy to the state police. If I want to buy an AK47 or AR15, I can go on Armslist.com, meet the seller in a parking lot somewhere, and cash and carry with no paperwork or ID needed.
 

PILTONSTANY

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It must be shite being American,having to justify the right to own arms after each time bunch of school kids have been murdered.
 

Purple & Green

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Clearly the answer is to arm the teachers.

Or perhaps give out weapons to the kids for self defence.

Simples.
That’s exactly what someone said on radio 4 this morning. More guns might have saved lives.

They are completely bonkers.
 

Hammi

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The right to bare arms is such an old idea too.
It was passed so they could defend themselves against another British invasion or uprising from within.

So many pointless deaths :(
 

Kenny

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That’s exactly what someone said on radio 4 this morning. More guns might have saved lives.

They are completely bonkers.

-95% of Americans want stronger background checks
-75% want military-style weapons banned
-75% of Americans don’t own a gun
-3% own half of all guns

not sure the source - but figures regularly banded abt on social media
 

Dub

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The right to bare arms is such an old idea too.
It was passed so they could defend themselves against another British invasion or uprising from within.

So many pointless deaths :(
Exactly. The right to bear arms was put in to force in 1791 when the most anyone could think of was a musket. Single shot, took time to reload. Nowadays any half wit can get their hands on an AK or a multitude of automatic/semi automatic guns and run around proclaiming it's their right to have them.
 

Hammi

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-95% of Americans want stronger background checks
-75% want military-style weapons banned
-75% of Americans don’t own a gun
-3% own half of all guns

not sure the source - but figures regularly banded abt on social media
42% of all households had at least 1 gun in 2017.
So those numbers sound massaged a bit.
 

aggie

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A society that will tolerate kids getting shot in school over and over again, and do fuckall about it, has got some front even calling itself a society.

America is full of apologist wanks.


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vasco de gama

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42% of all households had at least 1 gun in 2017.
So those numbers sound massaged a bit.
Anecdotally guns tend to be 'owned' by the male of the household so if 42% of households have guns but 90% of those guns are 'owned' by a guy then the 75/25 figure doesn't seem too unreasonable. Similarly, as witnessed by our own gun loving Hibby, it seems that once bitten by the love bug of guns folk go a bit loco and end up amassing an arsenal. Therefore the 3% owning so many again doesn't seem too crazy.

There is no logic to the gun debate here. Pointing out that civilians owning guns does not make anyone safer is simply not believed. Just like so many still believe Obama is a Muslim secret agent and that fluoride in the water is a plot by the communists. The only way the gun lovers are ever going to agree to give up their guns is for there to be a change in their overall attitude to life. That is a multi-generational thing and will happen in waves and then suffer reversals occasionally. It hugely unlikely to happen in my lifetime to any great degree but that doesn't stop me hoping.
 

hibs1986

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#17
I've never seen the statistics of 'upstanding citizen shooting baddie' gun deaths, as opposed to 'baddies shooting goodies(or other baddies)' gun deaths. Does the self-defence argument hold water? That's a genuine question. I suspect not, but even if it does it seems like a high risk strategy: the bad guy is prepared and ready, the teacher / shopper in Walmart / guy in a bar is otherwise occupied and currently mentally unprepared and unarmed - I think you'd probably have to be pretty lucky to save yourself. In terms of stopping mass shootings, an armed member of the public might reduce casualties, but a well-prepared shooter could cause a lot of damage before being shot. The Florida shooter did that fairly easily with smoke bombs and a fire alarm.

It's interesting the way the need too defend a fledgling nation has morphed into what exists today in the US, compared with Switzerland, where gun ownership seems to have stayed all about civic responsibility to bear arms for the state, if called upon (and shooting themselves...). Like VDG says above, the attitudes to gun ownership will take generations to change, but you have to start somewhere, surely. :dunno: And as someone said on twitter yesterday, if Thoughts and Prayers are good enough for the families of slaughtered children, then they're surely good enough for people sad about losing their guns.
 

HenryLB

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#18
I've never seen the statistics of 'upstanding citizen shooting baddie' gun deaths, as opposed to 'baddies shooting goodies(or other baddies)' gun deaths. Does the self-defence argument hold water? That's a genuine question. I suspect not, but even if it does it seems like a high risk strategy: the bad guy is prepared and ready, the teacher / shopper in Walmart / guy in a bar is otherwise occupied and currently mentally unprepared and unarmed - I think you'd probably have to be pretty lucky to save yourself. In terms of stopping mass shootings, an armed member of the public might reduce casualties, but a well-prepared shooter could cause a lot of damage before being shot. The Florida shooter did that fairly easily with smoke bombs and a fire alarm.
At the risk of being pretentious, I think this says something about US attitudes - that a lot of people genuinely believe in 'goodies' and baddies'. And that there's a weird belief in those goodies' ability to react like someone would in a crappy film if they were attacked by a baddie and happened to be armed.

I remember after the Aurora shooting (the one in a cinema in Texas) there were folk saying that if another audience member had had a gun they would have stopped it. WTF? A guy shooting indiscriminately into a dark and rapidly smoke-filled auditorium, thunderous noise, blinding flashes, and some guy is going to calmly slot him with a 9mm pistol? Madness.

When the congresswoman (Giffords?) was shot about ten years ago there was a guy on the scene with a gun. He drew it and went to shoot, but thankfully didn't because he was aiming at one of Giffords' security people who he thought was the shooter!

The other thing I don't understand is why they have prohibitive laws around things like alcohol. If laws won't stop criminals getting guns how do they prevent people under 21 buying alcohol? The logical conclusion is to have no rules at all.
 

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The other thing I don't understand is why they have prohibitive laws around things like alcohol. If laws won't stop criminals getting guns how do they prevent people under 21 buying alcohol? The logical conclusion is to have no rules at all.
I've seen some weight added to this most recent maniac by describing him as a kid. He was 19, old enough to serve in the armed forces and drive a car, but not old enough to buy a beer. America is so screwed up it's painful.
 

Chris G Whyte

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America is so screwed up it's painful.
I’m not sure America is messed up, but it’s approach to firearms certainly is.

Something has to be done. Innocent kids are getting shot up when they go to school, and there are elected people arguing that security should be ramped up to the level of a prison. A prison! And all because a small percentage of the population have developed a cognitive blind spot when it comes to carrying weapons. I understand that there’s a significant cultural difference between the States and ourselves (for example), but how can any pro-weapon person argue that the rules are fine as they are with a straight face?

Of course, the typical response is to deflect the argument onto something else. Much of this case has been moved to the question of mental health, and the suggestion that weapons aren’t the problem – a shooter’s state of mind is. But Irvine Welsh torched this view with his usual acerbic wit: bams with guns can kill people, while bams without guns wank in their parents basements.

The last shooting we discussed on these forums, the Vegas sniper if I recall, saw another oft-cited argument trotted out:

”I’d support tighter laws, but only if they stop this type of thing happening”.

It’s presented as a reasonable stance, but is functionally no different to “GIMME GUNNZ BANG BANG”. The people that deploy it will poo-poo every single suggestion because it won’t stop that one committed, yet usually fictitious, madman who will get hold of a weapon, no matter what, and start spraying lead around. Doing this means they can say they support a rhetorical tightening of the laws, but they claw like rabid jaguars at anything that might take their assault rifle away. It’s like alcohol at the football; it may not stop every booze-fuelled rampage from the terraces, but it certainly decreases their regularity.

Of course, it’s about percentages. Smart people know that. If you lower the chances of someone getting a hold of a weapon, you lower the chances of them going on a shooting spree.

I’m just not sure America is ready for some common sense to be applied to its firearm laws.