And Another Reason Why I Am Proud To Be British

[Smurf]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

 

[Hattie]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

And the stance of the British conservative party then and the hypocrisy of the British Tory government now....

 

[superbam]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

The last bit is patronizing in the extreme. I also have faith that people in Scotland will choose how they vote not based on whimsical emotions of nationalist pride, such as you seem to be doing, but rather based on an analysis of how the country's future is best served - and that might include ensuring we are never again ruled by a government we didnt vote for that conspires in evils like apartheid in our name.

 

[RahamGrix]

And another reason why.... you shouldn't post when drunk.

 

[egb_hibs]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposi:dali:tion campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

Really? some protest about events in a foreign land more than two decades ago, is more important than events in your own? Maybe your dizzy from all the hoopla over Mandela's passing - but despite the bbc's week of mourning, his very real and magnificent achievements are not the most important thing that ever happened in the world ever.

While we're at it, the UK has long been a base for dissidents to attack foreign governments. Rather more notably than anti apartheid it fostered Marxism and fosters Islamism in this way.

Ps sterling though their efforts may have been apartheid was not ended by jerry dammers, Jim Kerr or student protests - it was enabled by the defeat of communism which also dwarfs it in significance. There is no such morally clear contest with evil around today, in fact history provides few such stark examples. The nearest equivalents would be Islamism and the remaining redoubts of full on socialism. But it's not clear that today's west never mind and Indy Scotland has interests beyond the selfish.

 

[7 Hills]

I saw an English supporter of Mandela's being interviewed the other evening. He said that Mandela was distraught at the lack of support (in the form of sanctions against the South African government) from the British government, as he revered the UK parliamentary system. Not much to be proud of in the government democratically elected time and again by the British electorate during that period, then.

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[egb_hibs]

I saw an English supporter of Mandela's being interviewed the other evening. He said that Mandela was distraught at the lack of support (in the form of sanctions against the South African government) from the British government, as he revered the UK parliamentary system. Not much to be proud of in the government democratically elected time and again by the British electorate during that period, then.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Oh ffs that government helped end communism and thus apartheid. I wonder where that supporter stood on that question at the time. It is desperately depressing how the teenage view of things is becoming the adult one* - that people confuse pop records with geo politics in respect of what changes these situations. The former play a consciousness raising role, but the uk govt did rather a lot more to actually cause change to happen.

* ps im talking about that supporter not you, but it could equally apply to much msm coverage

 

[aggie]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

Phone up Better Together and tell them, then. While you're at it, remind them that Live Aid also happened, along with Iraq war protests.

All of this could quite obviously never have happened were Scotland and England two sovereign states; and therefore is massively relevant to voting Yes or No. :coffee:

 

[7 Hills]

Oh ffs that government helped end communism and thus apartheid. I wonder where that supporter stood on that question at the time. It is desperately depressing how the teenage view of things is becoming the adult one* - that people confuse pop records with geo politics in respect of what changes these situations. The former play a consciousness raising role, but the uk govt did rather a lot more to actually cause change to happen.

* ps im talking about that supporter not you, but it could equally apply to much msm coverage

Yes, but this supporter was a personal friend of Mandela's and had the inside track on Mandela's personal views. On being further prompted by the interviewer, he said that whilst Mandela displayed class and dignity and cast no aspersions at UK Government officials whom he had met with, privately he felt aggrieved that they hadn't imposed sanctions on the SA Government of the time.

 

[Smurf]

And the stance of the British conservative party then and the hypocrisy of the British Tory government now....

Yeah cause a political party that hasn't won a general election since 1992 represents the folk of the UK....

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i was going to just write Deary me but come on!

Pretty sure there would have been an anti apartheid organisation in Scotland back then if we had been an independent country.

But whatever floats your boat smurfy, you're obviously looking for a rise out of folk.

Of course there was an anti apartheid movement here in Scotland. I said as much. However, it was us collectively in this tiny wee island together that organised and was outside south africa the anti apartheid hq of the world.

 

[southfieldhibby]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

Step away from the peeve.The Anti Apartheid movement in The UK is specifically why Scotland should vote Yes.

All the while demonstrations and signs of support for The ANC/Mandela, the govt of the day, with no mandate in Scotland supported the apartheid regime, the junior section of the govt, including the current PM and speaker, produced posters demanding Mandela be hung.I really fail to grasp your logic on this one.

And the last sentence...lolz

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Yeah cause a political party that hasn't won a general election since 1992 represents the folk of the UK....

Yes they do, so another wee shunt towards the Yes box.Are you using the above statement as a defence of the union or independence?Because having a right wing political party,who didn't win the election represent Scotland on the international stage is specifically why you should vot yes.

Of course there was an anti apartheid movement here in Scotland. I said as much. However, it was us collectively in this tiny wee island together that organised and was outside south africa the anti apartheid hq of the world.

Britain is the 5th(?) largest island on this planet, go and stop referring to it as tiny please!

 

[Chester Perry]

Really? some protest about events in a foreign land more than two decades ago, is more important than events in your own? Maybe your dizzy from all the hoopla over Mandela's passing - but despite the bbc's week of mourning, his very real and magnificent achievements are not the most important thing that ever happened in the world ever.

While we're at it, the UK has long been a base for dissidents to attack foreign governments. Rather more notably than anti apartheid it fostered Marxism and fosters Islamism in this way.

Ps sterling though their efforts may have been apartheid was not ended by jerry dammers, Jim Kerr or student protests - it was enabled by the defeat of communism which also dwarfs it in significance. There is no such morally clear contest with evil around today, in fact history provides few such stark examples. The nearest equivalents would be Islamism and the remaining redoubts of full on socialism. But it's not clear that today's west never mind and Indy Scotland has interests beyond the selfish.

But will Lech Walesa get a minutes silence across the Uk. :coffee:

 

[Gareth]

Ps sterling though their efforts may have been apartheid was not ended by jerry dammers, Jim Kerr or student protests - it was enabled by the defeat of communism which also dwarfs it in significance. There is no such morally clear contest with evil around today, in fact history provides few such stark examples. The nearest equivalents would be Islamism and the remaining redoubts of full on socialism. But it's not clear that today's west never mind and Indy Scotland has interests beyond the selfish.

Some of this last bit is hugely contentious EEG, not the Jim Kerr student stuff but that it was the fall of communism that led to the end of apartheid. In the same way as communism the contradictions within apartheid made its demise inevitable to some degree and the ruling elite reached a decision to loosen the strings to some degree due to those contradictions, alongside the massive internal revolt (much more important than the external anti-apartheid movement, important though that was).
If you are arguing that the fall of communism was what led to the demise of apartheid due to the proxy wars being fought, the logical end of that argument was that the west created, supported and sustained apartheid as some sort of anti-communist device. Is that what you believe?

 

[gun ainm]

Oh ffs that government helped end communism and thus apartheid.

you're saying that maintaining apartheid was key to winning the cold war and the Boer could only be abandoned when it was 'won'? that secretly the UK govt of the day were anti-racist but sacrificed principle in favour of pragmatism? Cause that was really the PM's style?

don't buy your analysis at all, sure the ANC might have been in the red camp but that was a failure of the west. i've no doubt their politics played a small part but to suggest it was key goes too far.

 

[1 Mcnamara]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

That means more to me than whether I will be a few quid better or worse off through a Yes or No vote.

Are you also proud when your British goverment starts illegal wars and kills thousands of innocent women and children?

Were you proud when the Brits were one of the last countries to still trade with S.A.?

If your not brave enough to" move out of your parents home and try and make your own way in life" then that's fair enough.. But to hide behind some protests 35 years ago!! Come on.

 

[Smurf]

Step away from the peeve.The Anti Apartheid movement in The UK is specifically why Scotland should vote Yes.

All the while demonstrations and signs of support for The ANC/Mandela, the govt of the day, with no mandate in Scotland supported the apartheid regime, the junior section of the govt, including the current PM and speaker, produced posters demanding Mandela be hung.I really fail to grasp your logic on this one.

And the last sentence...lolz

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Yes they do, so another wee shunt towards the Yes box.Are you using the above statement as a defence of the union or independence?Because having a right wing political party,who didn't win the election represent Scotland on the international stage is specifically why you should vot yes.





Britain is the 5th(?) largest island on this planet, go and stop referring to it as tiny please!

Reading that you would think that those brutally discriminated against in South Africa were of the opinion that the UK was very much pro Apartheid. When the reality was and is that they very much knew that their brutal discrimination and barbaric system of racism was being campaigned against more in the UK than anywhere else in the world. Proof of that? Read the words of the great man himself.

 

[aggie]

Reading that you would think that those brutally discriminated against in South Africa were of the opinion that the UK was very much pro Apartheid. When the reality was and is that they very much knew that their brutal discrimination and barbaric system of racism was being campaigned against more in the UK than anywhere else in the world. Proof of that? Read the words of the great man himself.

Again - what's your point, caller?

As others have noted, it was hardly a government organised protest, was it? All the kinds of normal folk in what is now politically the UK who were involved in this, will still be here on the geographical entity that is Great Britain, even if it in the future contains two sovereign states.

You bang on as if we're all going to change into different people overnight. I don't get the relevance of this to the yes/no debate.

 

[Smurf]

Again - what's your point, caller?

As others have noted, it was hardly a government organised protest, was it? All the kinds of normal folk in what is now politically the UK who were involved in this, will still be here on the geographical entity that is Great Britain, even if it in the future contains two sovereign states.

You bang on as if we're all going to change into different people overnight. I don't get the relevance of this to the yes/no debate.

What a pathetic and wholly shallow way of thinking... So it is the Government of the day that represents a nation. Full stop.

I have never heard anything so utterly ridiculous.

My point is that it was the solidarity of in the main those of the progressive left here in the UK that didn't forget about the struggles in South Africa.

That makes me proud of the UK.

You HATE the UK and everything that it represents. Excellent for you. Jog on caller.

 

[southfieldhibby]

Reading that you would think that those brutally discriminated against in South Africa were of the opinion that the UK was very much pro Apartheid. When the reality was and is that they very much knew that their brutal discrimination and barbaric system of racism was being campaigned against more in the UK than anywhere else in the world. Proof of that? Read the words of the great man himself.

Not sure what your point is...

Do you agree Scotland would have voiced it's opposition to Apartheid outside The UK?Do you think that voice is any less relevant to that of the English/Welsh one?

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What a pathetic and wholly shallow way of thinking... So it is the Government of the day that represents a nation. Full stop.

I have never heard anything so utterly ridiculous.

diplomatically,politically and internationally who else does?

 

[beefy]

What a pathetic and wholly shallow way of thinking... So it is the Government of the day that represents a nation. Full stop.

I have never heard anything so utterly ridiculous.

My point is that it was the solidarity of in the main those of the progressive left here in the UK that didn't forget about the struggles in South Africa.

That makes me proud of the UK.

You HATE the UK and everything that it represents. Excellent for you. Jog on caller.

Oi! I know you want to keep us London led Smurf but using the Cockney geezer chat "Jog on" is a step too far.

I shall be voting Yes simply because you used this terminology. Mon the Sweaties.

 

[Purple & Green]

you're saying that maintaining apartheid was key to winning the cold war and the Boer could only be abandoned when it was 'won'? that secretly the UK govt of the day were anti-racist but sacrificed principle in favour of pragmatism? Cause that was really the PM's style?.

Sounds like a homeland or 24 plot.

 

[aggie]

What a pathetic and wholly shallow way of thinking... So it is the Government of the day that represents a nation. Full stop.

I have never heard anything so utterly ridiculous.

Eh? That's exactly what I'm not saying. My point is that the people represent a nation in the spheres you have been talking about - the British people, on the island of Great Britain. You won't cease to be British if Scotland becomes independent.

However, I am pointing out that the government of the political entity that is the United Kingdom quite patently did not support this movement you speak of. As the man said-

diplomatically,politically and internationally who else does?

You're confusing a non-governmental movement with a political one, and calling it a reason to support political union. I think that's nonsense. It's just my opinion, though.

You HATE the UK and everything that it represents. Excellent for you. Jog on caller.

And I'm sorry, but that's just pish. I don't hate the UK, I just don't believe it's government is fit for purpose in terms of Scotland, as all policies' ultimate aims are to support, promote and consolidate the city state of London and its shires.

No hating happening here.

 

[Smurf]

Oi! I know you want to keep us London led Smurf but using the $#@!ney geezer chat "Jog on" is a step too far.

I shall be voting Yes simply because you used this terminology. Mon the Sweaties.

"Jog on" was used in reply with tongue firmly in cheek to the "What's your point caller" comment made to me!! Better Together gives the commitment to ensuring a Hibernian crest on the home ground of Hibernian FC!

 

[Dub]

"Jog on" was used in reply with tongue firmly in cheek to the "What's your point caller" comment made to me!! Better Together gives the commitment to ensuring a Hibernian crest on the home ground of Hibernian FC!

Trying to buy votes now Kenny

 

[beefy]

"Jog on" was used in reply with tongue firmly in cheek to the "What's your point caller" comment made to me!! Better Together gives the commitment to ensuring a Hibernian crest on the home ground of Hibernian FC!

Rule Britannia!!!

Trying to buy votes now Kenny

I would even vote for the Smurfs if they made the crest a reality.



The trouble with politics is no matter who you vote the bastard government always gets in.

 

[Dub]

Rule Britannia!!!

I would even vote for the Smurfs if they made the crest a reality.



The trouble with politics is no matter who you vote the bastard government always gets in.

Not only do they get in but they seem to forget all the promises. It's easy enough to bandy things around like "If I get elected I will ensure a Hibs badge on Easter Road Stadium" and then not do it. I reckon that's what these pesky No campaigners will be doing mate. Stick with me, If I get elected I WILL ensure the badge is put in place mate.

 

[beefy]

Not only do they get in but they seem to forget all the promises. It's easy enough to bandy things around like "If I get elected I will ensure a Hibs badge on Easter Road Stadium" and then not do it. I reckon that's what these pesky No campaigners will be doing mate. Stick with me, If I get elected I WILL ensure the badge is put in place mate.

Jeezo! I'm fickle. Right, that's me in the Asian Dub Foundation now.

[video=youtube_share;KQsdfnbOevM]http://youtu.be/KQsdfnbOevM[/video]

 

[aggie]

"Jog on" was used in reply with tongue firmly in cheek to the "What's your point caller" comment made to me!! Better Together gives the commitment to ensuring a Hibernian crest on the home ground of Hibernian FC!

Alright, f**k it, I'm in too!

(Also, the "caller" thing was just used as a figure of speech, not as anything antagonistic)

 

[Jack]

Having lived through some of the AAM time as an trade unionist, but not being wholly het up by Thatchers government fucking Scotland over, and over, there was still plenty time to get het up by Thatchers UK governments support for the apartheid regime in the face of huge opposition throughout the UK.

IN MY OPINION had Scotland been independent at the time it (its government) would have been far more anti-apartheid, far more vocal, far earlier than a half hearted UK government who were led by a SA government sympathiser who in turn were supported by public school boys who thought creating hang Mandela posters would be a jolly good wheeze.

Of course that could all be shite as a fair whack of Thatchers government were Atilla the Scots who may have had an influence on a Scottish government had there been one during that era.

 

[gun ainm]

you're saying that maintaining apartheid was key to winning the cold war and the Boer could only be abandoned when it was 'won'? that secretly the UK govt of the day were anti-racist but sacrificed principle in favour of pragmatism? Cause that was really the PM's style?

don't buy your analysis at all, sure the ANC might have been in the red camp but that was a failure of the west. i've no doubt their politics played a small part but to suggest it was key goes too far.

terrible form to quote yourself but I wanted to add to the above a quote from NM at his trial

for many decades communists were the only political group in South Africa who were prepared to treat Africans as human beings and their equals; who were prepared to eat with us; talk with us, live with us, and work with us. They were the only political group which was prepared to work with the Africans for the attainment of political rights and a stake in society.

it'd be quite possible to conclude that but for the communist party of SA and the influence some of its members had on a young Mandela, the ANC might have been more Mugabesque (african nationalist). The ANC's freedom charter of 1955 opened with "South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white?

 

[Nex]

Even if Scotland is independent we would still all be "from the British Isles" and as such each individual would be free to choose to call themselves British, just as we can also choose to call ourselves European or Earthlings.

So if you want to change your definition of where you are from depending on what piece of history you want to claim some link to you can.

 

[1875]

Better Together gives the commitment to ensuring a Hibernian crest on the home ground of Hibernian FC!

Aye but with a crown and Union Flag on it.

 

[beefy]

Aye but with a crown and Union Flag on it.

We'll need to get rid off the Hibernian bit of our name tae.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland FC.

Oor songs are gonna go on forever and ever...Huns will be raging though

Och! I'm undecided now :pullhair:

 

[Smurf]

Aye but with a crown and Union Flag on it.

Has there been a flag debate this year? Certainly not been an abortion one....

 

[KABULHIBBY]

Has there been a flag debate this year? Certainly not been an abortion one....

Think this would end most of the flag debates

[video=youtube;bAvxqGnVO2w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAvxqGnVO2w[/video]

tbutchert

 

[egb_hibs]

But will Lech Walesa get a minutes silence across the Uk. :coffee:

A favourite point of mine. We'll see, but I doubt it. It certainly will not approach the same magnitude despite his being a much more historically significant achievement.

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Some of this last bit is hugely contentious EEG, not the Jim Kerr student stuff but that it was the fall of communism that led to the end of apartheid. In the same way as communism the contradictions within apartheid made its demise inevitable to some degree and the ruling elite reached a decision to loosen the strings to some degree due to those contradictions, alongside the massive internal revolt (much more important than the external anti-apartheid movement, important though that was).
If you are arguing that the fall of communism was what led to the demise of apartheid due to the proxy wars being fought, the logical end of that argument was that the west created, supported and sustained apartheid as some sort of anti-communist device. Is that what you believe?

In reverse order; no I am not arguing that. The west drove the seth efrikans to give it up as soon as the communist threat was neutralised. In other words, the moment the advance of the evils of communism - not only a much bigger threat on a global scale, but a much more destructive one within africa - were out of the way then apartheid could swiftly be dispatched. That is not the same as creating or apartheid to stop the communist threat - had the opposition to it being unconnected with communism then who knows what may have happened earlier.

As for the contradictions within (where have I heard that formulation before ) apartheid, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Unjust regimes can go on indefinitely with sufficient might and will. The white south africans took a mammoth risk and I am far from persuaded they'd have been so magnanimous were their hand not forced. We'll find out now if that risk was well calculated.

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terrible form to quote yourself but I wanted to add to the above a quote from NM at his trial



it'd be quite possible to conclude that but for the communist party of SA and the influence some of its members had on a young Mandela, the ANC might have been more Mugabesque (african nationalist). The ANC's freedom charter of 1955 opened with "South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white?

its also possible to conclude that had apartheid ended before the wall came down then we'd have had yet another african charnel house.

 

[Jack]

Dementia conference (on the news just now) involving the G8 members. Hosted by the UK and being opened by the Boy David.

Scotland has its own NHS, undoubtedly better than the English NHS,

Will Scotland be invited as part of the UK delegation? Or will the Department of Health ignore Scotland as it always has done? Even before devolution, when the NHSes although separate followed the same course dictated to by the DoH, the non English services were more likely to find out what was going on through the media!!!

 

[Hampden_Hibby]

The Anti Apartheid movement. Outside of South Africa it was here in the UK that it's opposition campaigned and organised. From Glasgow giving freedom of the city to London marches and concerts for someone too easily forgotten.

Don't use Glasgow's actions to give the UK brownie points. The UK didn't want to know about Mandela getting the freedom of the city when Dr Kelly and the council stood alone to honour him. That's why he never forgot Glasgow. Sixteen countries were represented at the award in 1981 - the UK wasn't one of them.

It was such a big deal to everyone else that the media managed to squeeze the ceremony into page 5 of the Glasgow Herald.

 

[Gareth]

In reverse order; no I am not arguing that. The west drove the seth efrikans to give it up as soon as the communist threat was neutralised. In other words, the moment the advance of the evils of communism - not only a much bigger threat on a global scale, but a much more destructive one within africa - were out of the way then apartheid could swiftly be dispatched. That is not the same as creating or apartheid to stop the communist threat - had the opposition to it being unconnected with communism then who knows what may have happened earlier.

As for the contradictions within (where have I heard that formulation before ) apartheid, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Unjust regimes can go on indefinitely with sufficient might and will. The white south africans took a mammoth risk and I am far from persuaded they'd have been so magnanimous were their hand not forced. We'll find out now if that risk was well calculated.

I accept that the lack of precision in what I wrote might have implied an inevitability I don't believe re apartheids demise. What I mean is that a significant proportion of the ruling white elite were effectively forced into accommodation with the ANC due to the existence of the like of Biko and the PAC ( a similar dynamic worked re MLK and Malcolm X). I don't think things could or would have gone on indefinitely but the internal revolt forced the elites hand.
Re the first paragraph, its not a kick in the arse off what I suggested was your view, the the west could have ended apartheid but they either chose not to due to time and energy being focussed elsewhere or they chose not to as part of the proxy war. Which is it you believe?

 

[egb_hibs]

I accept that the lack of precision in what I wrote might have implied an inevitability I don't believe re apartheids demise. What I mean is that a significant proportion of the ruling white elite were effectively forced into accommodation with the ANC due to the existence of the like of Biko and the PAC ( a similar dynamic worked re MLK and Malcolm X). I don't think things could or would have gone on indefinitely but the internal revolt forced the elites hand.
Re the first paragraph, its not a kick in the arse off what I suggested was your view, the the west could have ended apartheid but they either chose not to due to time and energy being focussed elsewhere or they chose not to as part of the proxy war. Which is it you believe?

Well it is more than a kick in the arse off to suggest the west created etc apartheid. But did it withhold from toppling it because the regime was also a bulwark against the greater evil of communism - yes I think that likely, in fact I think it's pretty self evident.