Youth Academy - a busted flush?

[Green Sleeves]

In the previous decade Hibs produced a glut of top drawer million pound plus players.

They brought in millions to the club in transfer fees.

Brown £4.4m
Thomson £2m
O'Connor £1.6m
Whittaker £2m
Fletcher £3m

£13million for those 5 guys alone in just 3 years, 2006-2009.

But in the last 10 years? For sure, Porteous is class. He'll probably go for a 7 figure sum. Not as much as we'd like, but a sell-on fee may be the longer term golden goose.

But since the golden generation what has the Youth Academy earned the club in hard cash in transfer fees. Or first team stalwarts?

How can a club survive like this? Sell on fees for top notch youth players are where the big money is now.

Why are we no longer producing top quality young players?

Is our Youth Academy not fit for purpose?

 

[Jack]

These guys weren't known as the Golden Generation for nothing. The stars rarely align in such a way for any club never mind our own.

Football academies have changed since then. Sometimes I think by the time the mega academies down south have hoovered up all the young talent then the new firm do their bit I'm surprised there's any kids left on the streets!

Transfer values have plunged for the likes of us too. Look at the way we're pinning the real value of Super John on to add ons to the initial transfer. The same happened with Sol Bamba and others.

I don't think it's just about bringing our own youth through these days. It's about developing players, like SJM, and getting the best out the squad. I think it's (the HTC as a whole) washing it's face.

 

[Zab]

In the previous decade Hibs produced a glut of top drawer million pound plus players.

They brought in millions to the club in transfer fees.

Brown £4.4m
Thomson £2m
O'Connor £1.6m
Whittaker £2m
Fletcher £3m

£13million for those 5 guys alone in just 3 years, 2006-2009.

But in the last 10 years? For sure, Porteous is class. He'll probably go for a 7 figure sum. Not as much as we'd like, but a sell-on fee may be the longer term golden goose.

But since the golden generation what has the Youth Academy earned the club in hard cash in transfer fees. Or first team stalwarts?

How can a club survive like this? Sell on fees for top notch youth players are where the big money is now.

Why are we no longer producing top quality young players?

Is our Youth Academy not fit for purpose?

I think the necessary changes have already been made, but the results will take time to see. Portoeus is probably the first to come through since Eddie May took over. The club is very much focussed on youth development.

Have to bear in mind that the Fenlon/Butcher era was a massive set back to youth development, as was relegation.

 

[Wheat Hound]

You are right in terms of transfer money generated, but Hanlon and Stevenson have provided excellent service for over 10yrs each and provided a huge value to the club.

Wotherspoon was a success of sorts and played a decent amount of 1st team games for us then won the cup with St J.

We could and should have produced more than that and hopefully in the next 5yrs or so we'll see more come through.

 

[MSG_07]

Porteous is still a raw talent but a very good player. My concern is since the players listed above, there has only been one capable of making a regular appearance at first team level in the past 5 years. Eddie May will tell you he has been very successful, but has he really though? Debatable I'd say.

 

[SuperTortolano]

Here’s my opinion. The golden generation were probably the last generation to be cleaning players boots and subject to getting booted from players like Yogi. Some think that was a form of bullying, I disagree. I listen to a lot of ex pros on the podcasts and they all said that cleaning the boots and banter made them stronger players mentally.

Our youth players are all a bunch of nice boys that have been pampered and not been subject to all that. Very few of them make the grade and probably aren’t mentally strong enough. They don’t know how to deal with the abuse and pressure from the stands and start playing within themselves.

 

[Zab]

Here’s my opinion. The golden generation were probably the last generation to be cleaning players boots and subject to getting booted from players like Yogi. Some think that was a form of bullying, I disagree. I listen to a lot of ex pros on the podcasts and they all said that cleaning the boots and banter made them stronger players mentally.

Our youth players are all a bunch of nice boys that have been pampered and not been subject to all that. Very few of them make the grade and probably aren’t mentally strong enough. They don’t know how to deal with the abuse and pressure from the stands and start playing within themselves.

To counter your point, all youth players in the UK are treated in the same “pampered” way now, probably more so in England - so why are they currently producing some excellent top class international players?

 

[SuperTortolano]

To counter your point, all youth players in the UK are treated in the same “pampered” way now, probably more so in England - so why are they currently producing some excellent top class international players?

That’s a good question. I think the atmosphere down there is a lot less volatile that in Scotland. We have sections of our own support screaming abuse at the likes of Shaw etc, never mind the opposition fans. Maybe another reason these English lads are wilting.

 

[Purple & Green]

So there's a scout, he identifies a player. Theres a head scout who oversees the scouting. There's youth coaches that develop players as they go through the age groups. There's reserve coaches, there's conditioning coaches, there's psychologists.

And then when they get to the first team, there's coaches, and managers/head coaches. Bobby Williamson broke them in (and lets not forget he only did because RP cut the funding for the first team budget), Tony Mowbray developed them further.

So who was responsible for the golden generation? I see that as a complex equation, and to an extent it's a case of the stars aligning. What if the academy is doing everything right and the stars aren't aligning? Do we rip it up and start again. I think @Jack has a good point too - the best Edinburgh youngsters are getting hoovered up into the EPL academies where I would suggest the chances of ever seeing first team action are negligible.

 

[1875]

That’s a good question. I think the atmosphere down there is a lot less volatile that in Scotland. We have sections of our own support screaming abuse at the likes of Shaw etc, never mind the opposition fans. Maybe another reason these English lads are wilting.

I was at Everton Sheffield United the other week, they shout he same vitriol at their milti millionaires as some Hibs fans shout at the £2k a week players.

 

[SuperTortolano]

So there's a scout, he identifies a player. Theres a head scout who oversees the scouting. There's youth coaches that develop players as they go through the age groups. There's reserve coaches, there's conditioning coaches, there's psychologists.

And then when they get to the first team, there's coaches, and managers/head coaches. Bobby Williamson broke them in (and lets not forget he only did because RP cut the funding for the first team budget), Tony Mowbray developed them further.

So who was responsible for the golden generation? I see that as a complex equation, and to an extent it's a case of the stars aligning. What if the academy is doing everything right and the stars aren't aligning? Do we rip it up and start again. I think @Jack has a good point too - the best Edinburgh youngsters are getting hoovered up into the EPL academies where I would suggest the chances of ever seeing first team action are negligible.

I think we need to start enticing these youngsters that are being hoovered up from down south. Pay them a decent wage, with heavy incentives built in. Bonus’s and wage increases after 10 first team games etc. Give them an incentive to join us rather than kick around down south doing nothing.

 

[SuperTortolano]

I was at Everton Sheffield United the other week, they shout he same vitriol at their milti millionaires as some Hibs fans shout at the £2k a week players.

Fair enough mate, can’t argue with that. Haven’t been to an English game for over a decade.

 

[Zab]

That’s a good question. I think the atmosphere down there is a lot less volatile that in Scotland. We have sections of our own support screaming abuse at the likes of Shaw etc, never mind the opposition fans. Maybe another reason these English lads are wilting.

Good point, in relation to the English none of them have played at a club where there is this level of expectation, and they are clearly struggling.

 

[Doc Shrink]

The latest kids coming through the Hibs Academy are monsters. Some of them are going to end up making Porteous look like a midget.
Honing their skills to match their physique could mean a lot of real athletes coming through.

 

[stickyRicky]

The latest kids coming through the Hibs Academy are monsters. Some of them are going to end up making Porteous look like a midget.
Honing their skills to match their physique could mean a lot of real athletes coming through.

Glad to hear that. Hibs are notorious for bringing through midgets or skinny malinkys.

 

[MSG_07]

The latest kids coming through the Hibs Academy are monsters. Some of them are going to end up making Porteous look like a midget.
Honing their skills to match their physique could mean a lot of real athletes coming through.

Looking forward to seeing Sadiki. Hopefully he has what it takes for the step up.

 

[Greenmachine]

Looking forward to seeing Sadiki. Hopefully he has what it takes for the step up.

He's a work in progress, but definately has potential.

 

[moathibby]

I was at Everton Sheffield United the other week, they shout he same vitriol at their milti millionaires as some Hibs fans shout at the £2k a week players.

I looked up Everton Sheffield United in wiki and can find out nothing about them.I reckon they don't exist and you have been on the same wacky baccy as I.

 

[EA2007]

Looking forward to seeing Sadiki. Hopefully he has what it takes for the step up.

Even if we just bring him on for the derby at season end when nowt to play for with strict instructions to GBH any C unit in maroon including dugouts.

He’ll likely get the jail but with conditions prob a step up from his homeland and we can help with repatriation costs when he is deported on release.

He’s above Sauzee then in my book. Miles ahead in fact.

Think about it.

 

[Forzahibs]

At least we had a golden generation , who else did ??

 

[stickyRicky]

At least we had a golden generation , who else did ??

Man United. Giggs, Scholes, Becham, Butt and Neville Brothers.

 

[Hattie]

Man United. Giggs, Scholes, Becham, Butt and Neville Brothers.

Well that makes a whole 2 clubs ?

 

[stickyRicky]

Well that makes a whole 2 clubs ?

That we know of yeah.

I'd imagine Ajax, Barcelona and other teams around the world would have had similar. Just not heard of it cos it's not in our doorstep.

 

[Forzahibs]

Man United. Giggs, Scholes, Becham, Butt and Neville Brothers.

I was kinda meaning up here lol

 

[stickyRicky]

I was kinda meaning up here lol

Ah ok. Nothing to my knowledge tbh.

 

[Hattie]

That we know of yeah.

I'd imagine Ajax, Barcelona and other teams around the world would have had similar. Just not heard of it cos it's not in our doorstep.

I would imagine so, esp Ajax... its far from common though, in Scottish football terms its kinda unheard of

 

[Greenmachine]

We have an excellent Youth Academy at East Mains with some great people working in it. What has to be borne in mind is just how huge the step up from Development team football is to the first team. Watching the Development team playing last Tuesday against Celtic we looked to have some really good players playing at that level. The reality is however that we might see maybe one or at best two break through into the first team and crucially stay there similar to what Ryan Porteous has done. Oli Shaw was brilliant at Development team level and a prolific goalscorer, but hardly gets his game now in the first team. FWIW I think Oli has been a bit unlucky and I still have some faith that he can establish himself as a first team regular again, but he is a prime example of what I mean by just how hard it is to break through and become a regular fixture at first team level. Fraser Murray is another one.

The Golden Generation were unfortunately a once in a lifetime crop of great young players who became a great Hibs team which thankfully went on to win a trophy albeit without the wonderful front two of Riordan and O'Connor by that time. They also brought in a huge amount of money for Hibs when they eventually moved on to bigger clubs. It is highly unlikely that any scottish club, never mind Hibs, will ever produce such a great crop of young players at the same time again. We can but live in hope though, and I am confident and optimistic that we will see a couple from the current lot breaking through. That would be a great return for our investment.

 

[MSG_07]

We have an excellent Youth Academy at East Mains with some great people working in it. What has to be borne in mind is just how huge the step up from Development team football is to the first team. Watching the Development team playing last Tuesday against Celtic we looked to have some really good players playing at that level. The reality is however that we might see maybe one or at best two break through into the first team and crucially stay there similar to what Ryan Porteous has done. Oli Shaw was brilliant at Development team level and a prolific goalscorer, but hardly gets his game now in the first team. FWIW I think Oli has been a bit unlucky and I still have some faith that he can establish himself as a first team regular again, but he is a prime example of what I mean by just how hard it is to break through and become a regular fixture at first team level. Fraser Murray is another one.

The Golden Generation were unfortunately a once in a lifetime crop of great young players who became a great Hibs team which thankfully went on to win a trophy albeit without the wonderful front two of Riordan and O'Connor by that time. They also brought in a huge amount of money for Hibs when they eventually moved on to bigger clubs. It is highly unlikely that any scottish club, never mind Hibs, will ever produce such a great crop of young players at the same time again. We can but live in hope though, and I am confident and optimistic that we will see a couple from the current lot breaking through. That would be a great return for our investment.

Development league and first team is like night and day. I honestly can't see any of the current crop of youngsters who've already been involved with the first team squad staking a regular claim. Other than Porteous none of them look anywhere near the level of first team which is a real shame. The coaching staff should be identifying weaknesses early on and getting them on tailored plans to improve the skills they are lacking. I'm a firm believer If you put in the time as with most things in life you'll improve. Too many just don't have the hunger to succeed. One player per 5 years isn't a great return. Ideally we should be produced at least one per year for the first team squad surely.

 

[1875]

I looked up Everton Sheffield United in wiki and can find out nothing about them.I reckon they don't exist and you have been on the same wacky baccy as I.

What are you slavering on about now?

 

[Purple & Green]

A couple of things; might be worth checking how many of the say premiership have come through academies and where? My initial hunch is virtually all full time players are graduates of the academy system.

I think I read that Celtics academy has produced 160 players playing in Scottish seniors leagues today. I’d say that’s the bench mark?

 

[AG1337]

I think Youth Academies are an accepted risk in the knowledge that they might only produce a few players every few years who establish themselves in the first team and/or are sold on for profit/reinvestment.
HTC is not unique is this respect, it applies across the board, certainly out with the elite leagues.
What’s the alternative, don’t bother with Youth development?
it’s worth remembering that the aim of HTC is to develop and improve ALL players, including seasoned pros so on this basis it really is a must.
It’s a fair question WHY we don’t seem to produce as many home grown players as we maybe should. Personally I think it is down to culture, lack of money in the Scottish game in general and attitude/application.

 

[Sheldrake07]

I think we need to start enticing these youngsters that are being hoovered up from down south. Pay them a decent wage, with heavy incentives built in. Bonus’s and wage increases after 10 first team games etc. Give them an incentive to join us rather than kick around down south doing nothing.

Alec Ferguson said that big pay packets is one reason why a lot of youngsters don't make it. If at the age of 17 they're earning as much in a week as their Dads do in a couple of months then Fergie reckons they lose some of the hunger and get the 'billy big baws' attitude that stops them working hard and reduces ambition. I can see money being an attraction but perhaps the standard of the training and the credentials that training provides is more important. If a club has a reputation as producing good young footballers that attracts the attention of bigger clubs who are interested in that product they demonstrate that there is a good potential career path for youngsters.
Young people need good advice and I think their heads are turned by the big clubs and I don't think they will necessarily do themselves any favours. A smaller proportion of youngsters 'hoovered up' by the big clubs will actually make it into the big club's first team and are more likely to struggle to get recognised anywhere so perhaps will end up being lost to the game.
Hibs need to operate on a model based on the quality of the training and the output to demonstrate by results that the training, opportunity and career pathway to the top (not necessarily at Hibs) they offer are better than any other club (including big EPL clubs), with a higher proportion of the academy graduates going on to have successful professional careers than other clubs' academys. I think the facilities we now have mean we're part of the way there, but the next step must be producing the stream of talent who go on to make it.
That is what should attract the high potential youngsters. But, i suspect, the lure of the big name clubs and big money will continue to turn the heads of the youngsters (and their representatives).

 

[Davy]

I would suggest we had another golden generation who also won a cup in the likes of Miller Wriight Weir Hunter etc. Admittedly Brown is prob the pick of both generations all in terms of achievement and leadership.

 

[Weehibbydrew]

I would suggest we had another golden generation who also won a cup in the likes of Miller Wriight Weir Hunter etc. Admittedly Brown is prob the pick of both generations all in terms of achievement and leadership.

Keith Wright was signed from Dundee.

 

[SuperTortolano]

It’s a sign of the times. We used to be out playing fitbaw night and day. Car parks, and any grass we could find that we’d no get chased from. All we wanted to do was play, it was an obsession. That’s in the past, the future generation are more interested in playing online, phones and social media.

 

[Power]

It’s a sign of the times. We used to be out playing fitbaw night and day. Car parks, and any grass we could find that we’d no get chased from. All we wanted to do was play, it was an obsession. That’s in the past, the future generation are more interested in playing online, phones and social media.

Agree with this.
Battles to claim pitches and even bigger ones when decent facilities came in.
Now me and my laddie walk onto some of the best astro or grass surfaces in the area (Pinkie) to practice 1 on 1. Not a soul in sight.

 

[Green juventine]

Agree with this.
Battles to claim pitches and even bigger ones when decent facilities came in.
Now me and my laddie walk onto some of the best astro or grass surfaces in the area (Pinkie) to practice 1 on 1. Not a soul in sight.

 

[SuperTortolano]

Agree with this.
Battles to claim pitches and even bigger ones when decent facilities came in.
Now me and my laddie walk onto some of the best astro or grass surfaces in the area (Pinkie) to practice 1 on 1. Not a soul in sight.

So true. Even when we got older and one of us passed our test, it was straight to the pitz in Porty preying a pitch is open.

 

[Power]

So true. Even when we got older and one of us passed our test, it was straight to the pitz in Porty preying a pitch is open.

Gie ye’s a take oan fir the pitch. 5v6.

 

[Greenmachine]

It’s a sign of the times. We used to be out playing fitbaw night and day. Car parks, and any grass we could find that we’d no get chased from. All we wanted to do was play, it was an obsession. That’s in the past, the future generation are more interested in playing online, phones and social media.

Whilst I agree with that....the thing is though all of these things like social media, playstation etc exist in every country not just Scotland. Why is it then that similar sized countries with similar populations to ours produce more top class players than we do..despite having the same distractions like you listed ?