Brexit

[WJC1848]

When you say quislings, is that like the multiple Labour Tory coalitions we have across Scotland now. Red Tories, fucking loads of them, all over the place, everywhere, in bed with their unionist pals. It makes me feel sick.

I can understand your ire but that does not apply to all of us. Perhaps one of the most regrettable periods of our recent history but we in the Borders
Sorry, this got terminated rather quickly because of me pressing a wrong key.
However, we in the Borders fought our case and fought it well. We were leafleting in every corner of the Borders with a band of the usual suspects in our local CLP, few in number though they are. Yes, we were supposedly aligned with the Tories and others but we very quickly had to counter the nonsense and lies - yes, lies - coming out from the local Tories themselves and so we ended up delivering our message on our own. We fought to prevent the break-up of the UK, with one of our main planks being the complete shambles that the SNP offered to the Scottish people: not a single proposal was costed. I take it that the SNP completely "forgot" this when they had the temerity to accuse May and her puppets earlier in the week of leading the country blindly over a precipice.
Many of us are not against independence; far from it. But it has to be a lot better than anything offered thus far by its proponents of an SNP persuasion. I think there is an air of inevitability that independence will come sooner rather than later, especially with young people experiencing first-hand the kinds of cock-ups (apologies for the slightly slack but entirely appropriate description) emanating from a Government that has no idea whatsoever of the mood against them that their prolonged, and unjustified, austerity has produced in Scotland. Most of my fellow-CLP members do not want to hear any such talk, regarding it as subversive, but the Labour Party is in no position at this moment to fight a General Election. We do not have a leader that can appeal to enough people outside the Party to make up the required deficit. However, that will not prevent every one of us from opposing Tory Westminster rule or SNP Holyrood rule, whether we be in Europe or no.
A reminder that I voted to remain in Europe but I see this unholy clamour for a second referendum as the potentially greatest threat to democracy that we have experienced in peace time; no other single call has ever threatened the sanctity of these islands as the upholder of democracy - none.

 

[Jack]

Did Douglas Crawford, Margaret Ewing, Winnie Ewing, Douglas Henderson, Iain MacCormick, George Reid, Donald Stewart, George Thompson, Hamish Watt, Andrew Welsh and Gordon Wilson, who were architects of the term Tartan Tories because of their actions, join Margaret Thatcher and her Conservative and Unionist Party MP's in the no confidence vote to bring down the minority Labour Government or not?
Did this result in the election of Thatcher and her Conservative and Unionist Party and 18 years of destruction or not?

BIG G

Would the Labour abstention not made a difference? It could have meant the vote of no confidence was a draw. I'm sure in cases like that the casting vote goes to the Speaker who, if he'd followed tradition, would have voted with the government of the day.

And to be fair Labour losing 18 years worth of General Elections had little to do with the SNP.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

It is sickening,Mark
The party of the people( historically) , in bed with the elitists.
King Tony has to answer for so much.

As for the new Party of change.......
Jesus H. Christ. More collusion of Labour and Tory.

The irony is that Blair, Campbell and Mandelson were the architects of the so called Peoples Vote, at the behest of big business. The call being repeated ad nauseam by Blairite Labour MPS, the so called Independent Group of Tory and Labour traitors soon to be rebranded as a Party called Change UK.
Nicola Sturgeon , who did not to have a problem sharing a a platform with Blairites Watson, Lammie, Tories, ex Tories et al.
I was also a bit surprised to see her grinning selfie with Campbell particularly when Alastair Campbell was Tony Blair’s right-hand man. He prepared the infamous “dodgy dossier” and was central to organising the propaganda to take the UK to war. By taking the UK into the conflict, this gave vital diplomatic legitimacy to the US-led invasion. Iraqi dead are estimated between 650,000 and 1,000,000.
A couple of years ago while visiting Scotland said that there was an “aura” around Ms Sturgeon and the SNP, but stated “that’s all it is”.
, “When you see Nicola Sturgeon, you can’t say she anything, but popular, but it’s like she’s floating above politics and that’s unreal.

New item by GORDON MCKINLEY

photos.app.goo.gl

Another irony the Tory and Labour ship jumpers whilst being the most vociferous for a Peoples Vote, are to a man and woman refusing to stand down and stand in by elections, they only believe in people's votes if it does not interfere with their careers.
Yes there are many Blairite Labour MP'S , in the PLP, who are vehemently anti Corbyn and the idea of a Socialist agenda, who are savvy enough not to follow Chuka and his pals. Some may. However I will be campaigning within the Labour Party for Mandatory Reselection of all Labour MP'S and MSP's. Nobody has a guarenteed job for life, neither should they have.
BIG G

 

[Murky]

That's all accurate, but lacks context.

Did Labour refuse to implement the democratic vote of the Scottish electorate on devolution in 1979 or not? The SNP quite fairly felt cause for no confidence after such devious behaviour. They felt the backlash from it, but long term it's served them quite well I suspect.

Also, interesting to see Ulster Unionists voting with Labour in 1979

Here is a bit more context on it all -

Did the SNP bring really down the Callaghan government and pave the way for Thatcherism?

According to Jeremy Corbyn, the SNP ended the 1974-9 Labour government and is therefore ultimately responsible for the de-industrialisation, miners’

www.newstatesman.com

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

 

[PILTONSTANY]

Grim

 

[1875]

Multiple Labour/Tory Coalitions across Scotland, all over the place, everywhere. Really? Across Scotland's Regional Councils Labour is in 5 Coalition's with the SNP......none with the Tories.
BIG G

OK coalition is the wrong word, they work together with tories. Lets start with my own area, West Lothian, where Labour and their Unionist pals work together happily.

A couple of other examples here.....SNP and Labour in bitter clash over council vote in Falkirk

 

[Zab]

This should now be heading for a second referendum. It shouldn’t be as simply as leave or remain, but instead four options:
Leave with May’s deal
Leave with a Norway-style arrangement
Leave with no deal
Remain

 

[Hibee Kev]

This should now be heading for a second referendum. It shouldn’t be as simply as leave or remain, but instead four options:
Leave with May’s deal
Leave with a Norway-style arrangement
Leave with no deal
Remain

Remain would stroll that as the leave vote would be fragmented between the 3 options you outline.

Fairest way might be to whittle it down to one leave option, the terms of which are clear and legally binding, with remain being the other option.

 

[Jack]

May is so keen on her deal and for all its faults and the fact its shit if there was to be a second vote I'd suggest it should be;

The May Deal

Remain, revoke article 50.

 

[tayside hibee]

Why the people of Scotland voted to remain part of the utter clusterfuck shambles which is Westminster, will confuse and sadden me until the day I die.

The generation that shat it for sure.

 

[Zab]

Remain would stroll that as the leave vote would be fragmented between the 3 options you outline.

Fairest way might be to whittle it down to one leave option, the terms of which are clear and legally binding, with remain being the other option.

Yes that’s a very good point. Agreeing a clear leave option, and putting that up against remain in a second referendum, would be the fairest way.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

As I have said I did not vote either way for good reasons I have explained on here. I would do the same if there was another vote. I have voted in every General, Scottish, local etc election since the early 1970's. In the Referendum in 1975 to ratify the joining of the EEC in 1973, I campaigned with many Left wingers in the Labour Party for a No vote. What next, best of three or until the original result is reversed.

BIG G

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

As I have said I did not vote either way for good reasons I have explained on here. I would do the same if there was another vote. I have voted in every General, Scottish, local etc election since the early 1970's. In the Referendum in 1975 to ratify the joining of the EEC in 1973, I campaigned with many Left wingers in the Labour Party for a No vote. What next, best of three or until the original result is reversed.

BIG G

As I have said I did not vote either way for good reasons I have explained on here. I would do the same if there was another vote. I have voted in every General, Scottish, local etc election since the early 1970's. In the Referendum in 1975 to ratify the joining of the EEC in 1973, I campaigned with many Left wingers in the Labour Party for a No vote. What next, best of three or until the original result is reversed.

BIG G

PS. I notice that neither the BBC , Sky or the usual shite UK press, nor folk on here, have mentioned the latest opinion poll from Survation which puts Labour ahead of the Tories nationally by 5%. You may or may not remember that Survation were the only polling organisation that got the last General Election result spot on, whilst all the rest of them up to the eve of poll had Labour 20+% behind the Tories.

BIG G

 

[Purple & Green]

Which is the most likely reason the tories don’t call a general election because they would lose what little power they still have.

 

[Jack]

PS. I notice that neither the BBC , Sky or the usual shite UK press, nor folk on here, have mentioned the latest opinion poll from Survation which puts Labour ahead of the Tories nationally by 5%. You may or may not remember that Survation were the only polling organisation that got the last General Election result spot on, whilst all the rest of them up to the eve of poll had Labour 20+% behind the Tories.

BIG G

Good news for Labour. SNP were +1 at 3% in the same UK poll no bad considering.

I see some Delta poll has positive news for Labour too.

LAB: 41% (+5)
CON: 36% (-7)
LDEM: 7% (+1)
UKIP: 7% (+2)

 

[stairways_second_coming]

Shambles

 

[southfieldhibby]

Laura Kuenssberg's doc on BBC2 last night was pretty interesting. Steve Baker almost crying a personal highlight, along with comparing The ERG to Franco Begbie!

 

[Nex]

Great to see Labour rebels and Labour whipping working to make sure every single option is thrown in the bin and "the mother of parliaments" stays in utter gridlock heading for no-deal Brexit. You would almost think they planned it, if it wasn't for how useless the party was at everything they try to do.

 

[stairways_second_coming]

No party is exempt from this farce, stop their wages and get them in 24 hours like picking a pope *&*^

 

[Purple & Green]

Why not be grown up and put all the options to the vote, and lose the least popular one each round until you have a majority?

 

[aggie]

For pity's sake, what are Labour playing at?
Can anybody explain to me the logic or strategy in abstaining on the Cherry motion yesterday?
It offered the opportunity to remove the threat of an accidental no-deal, it would have guaranteed that Theresa May couldn't threaten Parliament with an automatic no-deal if they didn't vote for her WA.
Every MP who voted against or abstained on Joanna Cherry's proposition is playing Theresa May's game, and risking irreparable damage to the country.
I suspect, as ever, it's because it's an SNP motion, in and of itself irreconcilable to these clowns.

 

[greencol]

For pity's sake, what are Labour playing at?
Can anybody explain to me the logic or strategy in abstaining on the Cherry motion yesterday?
It offered the opportunity to remove the threat of an accidental no-deal, it would have guaranteed that Theresa May couldn't threaten Parliament with an automatic no-deal if they didn't vote for her WA.
Every MP who voted against or abstained on Joanna Cherry's proposition is playing Theresa May's game, and risking irreparable damage to the country.
I suspect, as ever, it's because it's an SNP motion, in and of itself irreconcilable to these clowns.

It does stink of unionism.
None of the unionist parties seem to grasp that, not only will they lose the EU in this debacle, their precious Union will most likely disintegrate before their eyes.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

So the blame game goes on. Saw Nationalists also defending their abstention in the Customs Union vote, which was lost by 3 and 'threatening' to have a second vote on Independence, an idle threat I suspect. Disnae matter a jot about these consultitive vote results either way to be honest.

BIG G

 

[Hectorhib]

Sorry for not discussing the big issues, but does anyone else think the Speaker,John Jercow, is a bit of a prick?Maybe I'm oot o Orda, but loves the limelight he's getting.

 

[moathibby]

I can understand your ire but that does not apply to all of us. Perhaps one of the most regrettable periods of our recent history but we in the Borders
Sorry, this got terminated rather quickly because of me pressing a wrong key.
However, we in the Borders fought our case and fought it well. We were leafleting in every corner of the Borders with a band of the usual suspects in our local CLP, few in number though they are. Yes, we were supposedly aligned with the Tories and others but we very quickly had to counter the nonsense and lies - yes, lies - coming out from the local Tories themselves and so we ended up delivering our message on our own. We fought to prevent the break-up of the UK, with one of our main planks being the complete shambles that the SNP offered to the Scottish people: not a single proposal was costed. I take it that the SNP completely "forgot" this when they had the temerity to accuse May and her puppets earlier in the week of leading the country blindly over a precipice.
Many of us are not against independence; far from it. But it has to be a lot better than anything offered thus far by its proponents of an SNP persuasion. I think there is an air of inevitability that independence will come sooner rather than later, especially with young people experiencing first-hand the kinds of cock-ups (apologies for the slightly slack but entirely appropriate description) emanating from a Government that has no idea whatsoever of the mood against them that their prolonged, and unjustified, austerity has produced in Scotland. Most of my fellow-CLP members do not want to hear any such talk, regarding it as subversive, but the Labour Party is in no position at this moment to fight a General Election. We do not have a leader that can appeal to enough people outside the Party to make up the required deficit. However, that will not prevent every one of us from opposing Tory Westminster rule or SNP Holyrood rule, whether we be in Europe or no.
A reminder that I voted to remain in Europe but I see this unholy clamour for a second referendum as the potentially greatest threat to democracy that we have experienced in peace time; no other single call has ever threatened the sanctity of these islands as the upholder of democracy - none.

A labour party member not wanting a General Election,no wonder you are doing so badly in Scotland.You would rather have May and the Tories in govt. than back Corbyn, fucking disgracefull!

 

[Davy]

Nothing about this will be straightforward. The biggest problem seems to hinge right now on the Irish border. The SNP euro minister who gave the speech last week about keeping the door open...that is all well and good, but what then happens should we now get independence and we were to be accepted whilst England and Wales left. What would then happen with the border between England and Scotland? Would anyone be happy with customs at the border? A lot more thinking is going to be required.

 

[WJC1848]

A labour party member not wanting a General Election,no wonder you are doing so badly in Scotland.You would rather have May and the Tories in govt. than back Corbyn, fucking disgracefull!

I try not to respond to inane posts like yours but so for you I'll make an exception.
Nowhere did I state I didn't want an election.
I have voted Labour and will continue to do so, because, rather like something else dear to my heart, it's in my blood.
I am only too well aware of the divisions in my own CLP, never mind the party, to contemplate an election right at this moment. Last night I attended a Labour Party meeting wherein it was only too obvious those in the room were divided on Labour Party leader, Scottish Labour Party leader and almost everything else to think about another thing to divide the country.
Perhaps unlike you, I am a realist, knowing exactly what my thoughts are on the state of politics in my area.
I will stop for now and reply to you more at length later.
But, please don't do your "big man" thing, hiding behind the anonymity of a computer, and cursing at me. I support the Labour Party, not any leader. Like a football team, managers come and go, but the support is always there for the team. Do you think you could work out the analogy for yourself of exactly why Corbyn won't win the next election?

 

[Jack]

Brexit.

Politics inaction!

 

[moathibby]

I try not to respond to inane posts like yours but so for you I'll make an exception.
Nowhere did I state I didn't want an election.
I have voted Labour and will continue to do so, because, rather like something else dear to my heart, it's in my blood.
I am only too well aware of the divisions in my own CLP, never mind the party, to contemplate an election right at this moment. Last night I attended a Labour Party meeting wherein it was only too obvious those in the room were divided on Labour Party leader, Scottish Labour Party leader and almost everything else to think about another thing to divide the country.
Perhaps unlike you, I am a realist, knowing exactly what my thoughts are on the state of politics in my area.
I will stop for now and reply to you more at length later.
But, please don't do your "big man" thing, hiding behind the anonymity of a computer, and cursing at me. I support the Labour Party, not any leader. Like a football team, managers come and go, but the support is always there for the team. Do you think you could work out the analogy for yourself of exactly why Corbyn won't win the next election?

I'm not making out like a big man,I'm saying what I feel,which is why I'm not and never will be in Labour,because if you can't get with the party line you shouldn't be in the same party.It 's called democratic centralism something that Labour members can't grasp.You thrash things out at conference then go with what you agreed on.That's why I'm a socialist and your not.

 

[Purple & Green]

So the blame game goes on. Saw Nationalists also defending their abstention in the Customs Union vote, which was lost by 3 and 'threatening' to have a second vote on Independence, an idle threat I suspect. Disnae matter a jot about these consultitive vote results either way to be honest.

BIG G

The way mps have acted on all sides could have been better, but that said, the conservatives have been an absolute disgrace - and continue to be so. The conservatives are plotting the course, not labour, snp or the dup.

 

[southfieldhibby]

Sorry for not discussing the big issues, but does anyone else think the Speaker,John Jercow, is a bit of a prick?Maybe I'm oot o Orda, but loves the limelight he's getting.

I like him.
Totally self absorbed, but he’s brilliant at antagonising Tory’s

 

[Greenmachine]

I like him.
Totally self absorbed, but he’s brilliant at antagonising Tory’s

Apparently he has become a bit of a cult hero in the rest of Europe, particularly with Germans who think he is a cross between Monty Python and Shakespeare !

 

[WJC1848]

I'm not making out like a big man,I'm saying what I feel,which is why I'm not and never will be in Labour,because if you can't get with the party line you shouldn't be in the same party.It 's called democratic centralism something that Labour members can't grasp.You thrash things out at conference then go with what you agreed on.That's why I'm a socialist and your not.

Oh, I see. Democratic centralism. Ah. Is that the one-party-state type of DC, in which no-one, but no-one, is allowed to have a different opinion, or is that the word-out-of-line-and-you're-deselected type of DC? Whichever, even if there is yet another, your own brand, you are welcome to it, if that is what you desire.
I always find "the party line" changes quite considerably when "the party" wishes it, reflecting "the party's" somewhat suspect ability to "adapt" as circumstances change. Such cynicism on my part applies to all parties.
I guess I will have to resign from the Labour Party since you have been able to expose me as a charlatan, posing as a "socialist" all these years, when you are able to blow my cover in such a short period of time with your undoubted limitless powers of observation. But I can only assume you are much too humble to concur.
I now leave you to your future observations on all matters socialist.

 

[southfieldhibby]

Would be quite good if @egb_hibs ventured back for a wee brexit stint..

 

[Doc Shrink]

Would be quite good if @egb_hibs ventured back for a wee brexit stint..

Indeed.

I enjoyed most of his posts.
Apart from the big words obviously.
Shame he's not around at such a crucial point in politics - pretty certain he'd have some strong opinions which would be more worthy of debate than some of the 'ordure ordure' being heard in Parliament.

 

[moathibby]

EGB argument would go like this. Corbyn is Theresa May. Brexit means Remain.

 

[Leith1975]

When the fuck does Scotland decide to get out of this shambles? Watching all these Tory and Labour MPs arguing amongst themselves to decide our future while we have no input makes me sick. This union isn’t a union of equals and it doesn’t work for Scotland.

 

[Nex]

The SNP have long said they don't support anything short of a customs union AND single market at the bare minimum. As such they abstained in voting for customs union only.

Meanwhile Labour have no common plan with mps rebelling all over the place canceling out the Tory rebels and a refusal to support the SNP motion because most of them hate the SNP more than a no-deal brexit.

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

EGB argument would go like this. Corbyn is Theresa May. Brexit means Remain.

Dinnae be daft.

BIG G

 

[GORDONSMITH7]

When the fuck does Scotland decide to get out of this shambles? Watching all these Tory and Labour MPs arguing amongst themselves to decide our future while we have no input makes me sick. This union isn’t a union of equals and it doesn’t work for Scotland.

I watched the TV live today in Parliament and the organised film shot, that Cable... Liberals, Blackford...SNP, Roberts...Plaid and Lucas.....Greens. wanted a so called (intitiated by Blair/Campbell Peoples vote) In between Cable and Blackford was Labour Blairite traitor Chucka Ummuna. Blackford stated we have 5 Parties represented here. Hold on mate Chuka represents fuck all and not got the balls to stand in a by election as an Independant . No party. No hope and no chance. No Peoples vote in his London seat for punters that voted Labour. Peoples vote my arse.

BIG G