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Thread: Independent Budget Review - debate on the future of public sector

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    Independent Budget Review - debate on the future of public sector

    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...10/07/29082429

    EGB - get fired in, Big Alex is looking for your views.

    This could be a decent start to the honest debate we have been calling for for a while. Key for me that it's as much about lowering our expectations, as expecting the state to find magical solutions to meeting our demands with much less money. I have heard people say this is just like the independence National Conversation, but I have always thought it bizarre to blame the SNP government for the fact that only 14 people bothered to post on the website. People apparently see no contradication is demanding a debate while resolutely refusing to take part (with the exception of anonymous posts on football fora EDIT - this comment is not aimed at anyone on here!!).
    Last edited by arthurduncan; 30-07-10 at 19:04.

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    about the budget cuts

    Ok-lets compare the facts from the myths-Osborne and David Laws claimed that publicsector financies were in worsefinancial strates than was actually the case.On the 6th of April Osborne said to the Telegraph"The plans we set out involved around *)% of the work coming from spending restraint..The tax increases are already in place and the plans do not include a n increase in VAT".
    Osborne claimed that public sector financies were in worse shape than the previous govt. admitted.Here's the truth.When the treasury published April's monthly borrowing numbers,it admitted data revisions had cut borrowing by 7.5 billion.In May with revised data borrowing fell by another 3.2 biliion over the year to April.There was a further drop in May of 1.4 billion.
    The economy has been growing,tax revenues are rising ,spending is under control,and the deficit is coming down faster than Labour had predicted.The planned deficit reduction to 140 billion for the year 2011/12 could have been met a year in advance.
    So the tories want to push through 30 billion pounds worth of cuts ,with a pay freeze for public sector workers means a cut in real income coupled with the VAT increase means a decline in the standard of living for the private sector too.
    According to the office for National Statistics take home pay for public and private workers is down by 2.5%on an annual basis in the first quarter of the year.
    The decision to hike benefits in line with the consumer price index ,which excludes housing costs ,instead of the retail price index will make huge savings for the govt.but heighten inequality.The increase in the income tax threshold will have little or no impact on pensioners,the unemployed and parents in low paid part time work but the hike in VAT wil hit millions hard.
    The snp and others have no real solutions to the problem because any solution involves proping up a crazy system.If cuts are to be made why don't they consider the spending on Trident. Why don't they consider pulling the troops out of Afghanistan now,not only would this save billions it would also save lives,the cuts are being pushed through in order that the millionares in the cabinet and their friends in the city can continue to live in the lifesyle to which they have become accustomed.It was the bankers who caused the crises but it is always the workers who pay .

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    Quote Originally Posted by outsideleft View Post
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    Ok-lets compare the facts from the myths-Osborne and David Laws claimed that publicsector financies were in worsefinancial strates than was actually the case.On the 6th of April Osborne said to the Telegraph"The plans we set out involved around *)% of the work coming from spending restraint..The tax increases are already in place and the plans do not include a n increase in VAT".
    Osborne claimed that public sector financies were in worse shape than the previous govt. admitted.Here's the truth.When the treasury published April's monthly borrowing numbers,it admitted data revisions had cut borrowing by 7.5 billion.In May with revised data borrowing fell by another 3.2 biliion over the year to April.There was a further drop in May of 1.4 billion.
    The economy has been growing,tax revenues are rising ,spending is under control,and the deficit is coming down faster than Labour had predicted.The planned deficit reduction to 140 billion for the year 2011/12 could have been met a year in advance.
    So the tories want to push through 30 billion pounds worth of cuts ,with a pay freeze for public sector workers means a cut in real income coupled with the VAT increase means a decline in the standard of living for the private sector too.
    According to the office for National Statistics take home pay for public and private workers is down by 2.5%on an annual basis in the first quarter of the year.
    The decision to hike benefits in line with the consumer price index ,which excludes housing costs ,instead of the retail price index will make huge savings for the govt.but heighten inequality.The increase in the income tax threshold will have little or no impact on pensioners,the unemployed and parents in low paid part time work but the hike in VAT wil hit millions hard.
    The snp and others have no real solutions to the problem because any solution involves proping up a crazy system.If cuts are to be made why don't they consider the spending on Trident. Why don't they consider pulling the troops out of Afghanistan now,not only would this save billions it would also save lives,the cuts are being pushed through in order that the millionares in the cabinet and their friends in the city can continue to live in the lifesyle to which they have become accustomed.It was the bankers who caused the crises but it is always the workers who pay .
    It's interesting that when the point about borrowing being a little lower than estimated is trumpeted, it is seldom mentioned that (IIRC) the same reforecasting revealed the structural deficit is worse than was forecast - and that is the most important number; basically that means the cost of the banks going fubar has been overestimated, while the cost of running our colossal state was underestimated.

    The ONS figures on earnings meanwhile; artfully presented. Yes, total public and private sector earnings are down; but that's because private sector earnings are down. Public sector earnings I think went up.

    As for Afghanistan; around 4 billion a year would be saved. Chuck in trident and that's another 2 billion if that. Still approx 150 billion pa to go

    Where did the above nonsense come from outsideleft? If it's from the SNP then it's another nail in the coffin for their credibility.

    In the midst of this crisis they have completely undermined their case by standing with outstretched palms expecting the union to help them buck reality, and putting all the hard decisions onto the adults at westminster.

    Which is precisely the opposite of what they should have been doing.

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    Sorry EGB, but were do get that us public sector workers wages have risen?

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    areply to egb

    Here are a few ideas,the wealth of the richest 1000 people in britain went up a third over the past year to 336 billion.It wouldn't take a genious to see where some of your 120 billion could be found!We could collect the 125 billion of taxation avoided by the rich and multinationals every year.We could restore corporation tax to the levels that were set in the 1980's and bring in 35 billion.Bringing the troops home would save 6 billion a year.Don't replace trident missiles and save 97 billion over the next twenty years.Or get rid of nuclear weapons altogether and save us hundreds of billions in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by outsideleft View Post
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    Here are a few ideas,the wealth of the richest 1000 people in britain went up a third over the past year to 336 billion.It wouldn't take a genious to see where some of your 120 billion could be found!We could collect the 125 billion of taxation avoided by the rich and multinationals every year.We could restore corporation tax to the levels that were set in the 1980's and bring in 35 billion.Bringing the troops home would save 6 billion a year.Don't replace trident missiles and save 97 billion over the next twenty years.Or get rid of nuclear weapons altogether and save us hundreds of billions in the future.
    the 125 billion tax avoidance estimate is pie in the sky as is the cost of trident. both routinely used in left wing arguments, the former based on a way out estimate which in any case iirc is not a one year figure but over a number of years. trident meanwhile, is 20 billion according to govt figures, 35 billion according to sceptical analysts and 100 billion according to no substantiated figures i've ever come across.

    that's not to say tax avoidance shouldn't be clamped down upon, but by the most optimistic real world estimates it would bring in a fraction of what you hope for. meanwhile trident as i say will save you 2 billion a year right now if you're lucky (most of the costs are loaded towards the end of the payment cycle). bringing the troops home meanwhile, would save another small figure as you note.

    as for upping corporation tax, i'm not sure a heavy rise is desirable right now, nor particularly workable generally in a global economy the like of which did not exist in the 80s.

    and of course many of our richest individuals are non doms, and or the people that provide jobs. i don't buy the whinging that says they'll all bail if tax goes up to 50% but much beyond that any they would.

    The bottom line is that with the highest ever tax takes we were still running a large deficit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mixu_dave View Post
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    Sorry EGB, but were do get that us public sector workers wages have risen?
    i stand corrected; it seems both have risen, though the public sector much more;

    Public sector pay races ahead in recession - Times Online

    this is the real kicker though;

    "this has come despite a decline in productivity. According to the ONS, public sector productivity fell by 3.4% in the 10 years from 1997 — compared with a rise of 28% in the private sector over the same period."

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    i stand corrected; it seems both have risen, though the public sector much more;

    Public sector pay races ahead in recession - Times Online

    this is the real kicker though;

    "this has come despite a decline in productivity. According to the ONS, public sector productivity fell by 3.4% in the 10 years from 1997 compared with a rise of 28% in the private sector over the same period."
    Can I ask what it is you do sir?
    I work as a nursing assistant with NHS Lothian mate, I work in an forensic unit for criminals with a mental health disorder. I get paid less than 16.500 pa and as part of my job I am spat on, assulted and verbally abused on a dailly basis. I have just been informed I will recieve NO pay rise for atleast 3 years, am at risk of losing some allowances, they have stopped overtime and cut well back on bank shifts lessening my earning potenial, and top of that my pension is under threat!
    So forgive me if I find your continued and relentless attack on all things public sector more than a bit annoying mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mixu_dave View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Can I ask what it is you do sir?
    I work as a nursing assistant with NHS Lothian mate, I work in an forensic unit for criminals with a mental health disorder. I get paid less than 16.500 pa and as part of my job I am spat on, assulted and verbally abused on a dailly basis. I have just been informed I will recieve NO pay rise for atleast 3 years, am at risk of losing some allowances, they have stopped overtime and cut well back on bank shifts lessening my earning potenial, and top of that my pension is under threat!
    So forgive me if I find your continued and relentless attack on all things public sector more than a bit annoying mate.
    In my opinion viewing 'the public sector' as a big blob is a common problem here. ( and not one that's limited to the public sector - all the outrage at 'bankers' pay, takes in 10000 blameless lackeys for every well paid executive who actually had any influence over what happened).

    What you do is admirable, and I'd say the taxpayers are getting more than their money's worth. When people complain about 'the public sector' I don't think they mean people like you, or police, doctors and so on.

    I think they mean (I know I do) the vast bureaucracy of office workers, the quangos and the diversity officers.

    Personally I'd like to see the supply side of the NHS privatised to a large degree, so that guys like you would get paid more for the job you do, while a lot of the non jobs would go to fund that.

    As for me, as you asked; IT. Nothing particularly noble about it, but then nobody is forced to pay for me. I'm happy to pay my taxes to fund the sorts of thing you do, and the other things I mentioned. But not the stuffed ranks of desk pilots in over manned, over officious tentacles of of the state, who spend their time interfering with lives of the rest of us.

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    Fair enough then mate, and i actually agree with you, the amount of money the NHS alone wastes on employing people to sit on there bum and do basically nothing is astounding imo. Don't get me wrong, a fair few of them do valuable and essential jobs, but was there really any need for NHS Lothian to specifically employ a new HR consultant, on 140.000 pa remember, whose sole remit was to sack/get rid of nurses?

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