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Thread: Central Defence

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    Central Defence

    A shambles tonight. Not only defensively IMO but their use of the ball. And how slow particularly in the first half to use it. IMO they slow us down as a team and look hesitant and unconvincing defensively.

    Harsh?

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    A shambles tonight. Not only defensively IMO but their use of the ball. And how slow particularly in the first half to use it. IMO they slow us down as a team and look hesitant and unconvincing defensively.

    Harsh?
    Not overly.
    Bamba was a black Rob Jones tonight.

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    Re: Central Defence

    I know the stats say different but I honestly dont believe that Hogg and Bamba make a good partnership.

    Saying that I thought Hogg had a decent game tonight but looks a lot more comfortable when he was playing alongside Hanlon than he does with Bamba.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by GloryGlory View Post
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    I know the stats say different but I honestly dont believe that Hogg and Bamba make a good partnership.

    Saying that I thought Hogg had a decent game tonight but looks a lot more comfortable when he was playing alongside Hanlon than he does with Bamba.
    I thought Hogg was as bad. Slows the game right down...

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by GloryGlory View Post
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    I know the stats say different but I honestly dont believe that Hogg and Bamba make a good partnership.
    Saying that I thought Hogg had a decent game tonight but looks a lot more comfortable when he was playing alongside Hanlon than he does with Bamba.
    Correct.
    Thats because Bamba, not being a cultured CB, is a law unto himself and his style is not conjusive with forming CB partnership.
    They have to work together, Hogg/Hanlon do that much better.

    Bamba wasnt tight enough on Paton on first goal, (if it has been Hogg, he'd have been hung draw and quartered by now on here).

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    A shambles tonight. Not only defensively IMO but their use of the ball. And how slow particularly in the first half to use it. IMO they slow us down as a team and look hesitant and unconvincing defensively.

    Harsh?
    Nope, agreed, just started a bamba v hanlon thread, thought bamba was poor tonight.

    Hanlon looked better in his 2 games he's "covered"



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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie View Post
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    Nope, agreed, just started a bamba v hanlon thread, thought bamba was poor tonight.

    Hanlon looked better in his 2 games he's "covered"

    Totally agree.

    Perhaps with the state of the pitch were a large %ge of game was played in the air, bamba would have been better placed in the McBride role.

    The pitch lessened the effectiveness of the passers in the team such as McBride, Miller, Rankin and Hogg.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    Totally agree.

    Perhaps with the state of the pitch were a large %ge of game was played in the air, bamba would have been better placed in the McBride role.

    The pitch lessened the effectiveness of the passers in the team such as McBride, Miller, Rankin and Hogg.
    Hogg a passer? Passenger...

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Hogg a passer? Passenger...
    Yes - a typo Shirley.

    Hogg too often is left with the responsibility of "the final pass forward" and he just aint up to it.


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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Shrink View Post
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    Yes - a typo Shirley.

    Hogg too often is left with the responsibility of "the final pass forward" and he just aint up to it.

    The long diagonal punts he does at times are fecking woeful.

    Still think he is our best option at centre half though.

    Worth adding that the midfield were poor tonight. There was a severe lack of options for the defenders to pass the ball to tonight.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Hogg's passing is identical to Caldwell's passing. A 40 yard diagonal hoof that 9 times out of 10 fails to reach it's target.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Hogg's passing is identical to Caldwell's passing. A 40 yard diagonal hoof that 9 times out of 10 fails to reach it's target.


    The "Zambarnardi Pass".

    :shrink303:

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Shrink View Post
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    Yes - a typo Shirley.

    Hogg too often is left with the responsibility of "the final pass forward" and he just aint up to it.

    Bit over critical on Hoggs distribution.
    Certainly has improved 10 fold in the last couple of seasons.
    The fact that he is still seen as the man responsible for punting ball forward in itself confirms that he is seen as the man for the job.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Shrink View Post
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    The "Zambarnardi Pass".

    :shrink303:
    One of which from Hogg led to the equaliser.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Struggle to win the first header in the box, and often allowed it to bounce before clearing it.

    Murray was at fault for the first goal as well.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Bamba had one of his bull in a china shop performances tonight. The guy is such an unconventional centre half, you are never quite sure what he is up to. He is not a natural left sided central defender and that IMO is why he looks so awkward playing alongside Hogg. The balance is not quite right. Hanlon is a naturally left sided defender and so works better with the captain. That said, I don't think Paul Hanlon is particularly strong in the air which is an essential requirement of that position. I think Yogi prefers Bamba in their due to his physique and pace. I do however feel that Hanlon is going to be a regular next season.
    Last edited by Greenmachine; 11-02-10 at 06:54.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    One of which from Hogg led to the equaliser.
    Oh yes - it "led" to a penalty.




    You don't have bend reality to suit your view eh.


    I'm not a critic of Hogg so you're wasting your time on me - but trying to claim that he is an accurate passer of the ball is stretching things further than a very very stretchy thing that's been left in a hot room and stretched.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Bamba and Hanlon is the answer. No-one can actually argue against that cos we've not seen enough of it, but Hanlon left, Bamba right, would be feckin great imo.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Keepitgreen View Post
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    Bamba and Hanlon is the answer. No-one can actually argue against that cos we've not seen enough of it, but Hanlon left, Bamba right, would be feckin great imo.
    It would indeed be our current best combination.

    Next season though we need a Newman/Newman possible combination to challenge a Newman/Hanlon one.

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    Re: Central Defence

    The second best goals against column in the SPL.



    As for slagging off Hogg for punting the ball long, maybe it was the best idea on that bog of a pitch.

    When guys like Liam Miller are struggling to get the ball under control its bad news.
    Ever play this game chief?

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Keepitgreen View Post
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    Bamba and Hanlon is the answer. No-one can actually argue against that cos we've not seen enough of it, but Hanlon left, Bamba right, would be feckin great imo.
    Never going to happen.

    To even suggest that Bamba is capable of marshalling a back line is laughable.

    Hanlon could but too young to be given responsibility especially alongside the Bombscare.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by greencol View Post
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    The second best goals against column in the SPL.



    As for slagging off Hogg for punting the ball long, maybe it was the best idea on that bog of a pitch.

    When guys like Liam Miller are struggling to get the ball under control its bad news.
    Agreed, which is why putting Bamba into the midfield under these conditions , where ball control on the deck is not a major factor, is an option.

    Our passing players last night Miller/McBride were less effective and a longer more arial approach to the game may have given a better result.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    Never going to happen.

    To even suggest that Bamba is capable of marshalling a back line is laughable.

    Hanlon could but too young to be given responsibility especially alongside the Bombscare.
    Sigh, here we go.

    Remind me again which is the international player? Bamba, or Hogg?
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    Re: Central Defence

    I wouldn't mind Hogg picking up a wee niggle that keeps him out for a couple of weeks to see what a Bamba and Hanlon partnership looked like. Think that they would actually complement each other really well. Both have a bit of pace, and Hanlon is a miles better passer of the ball than Hogg.

    I would also add that assuming we're looking for a new centre half next season we could do a lot worse than signing Mulgrew. Never really thought of him as a centre half before, but he impressed me a lot more last night than Darren Barr ever has. Good passer of the ball, read the game well, and a lot physically stronger than I thought he looked at left back. Suspect he would have to chib Deek before he got to take a free kick mind

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Keepitgreen View Post
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    Sigh, here we go.

    Remind me again which is the international player? Bamba, or Hogg?
    And Bamba would walk into the England squad right enough.

    Being an effective ball winner and throwing the odd tackle at the expense of giving away countless fouls doesnt make you a competent CB.

    Bamba, IMHO, is second rate as time will tell.

    Get over it.

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    Re: Central Defence

    I watched the game on Alba last night and tbh I thought Hogg did pretty well bearing in mind he was left isolated whilst Bamba rampaged all over the place to little or no effect.

    As for Hoggs passing ability, I doubt he wants to be the man responsible for punting the ball up the park but he has been put in that position and is doing his best to carry out whatever instructions he has been given.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    I watched the game on Alba last night and tbh I thought Hogg did pretty well bearing in mind he was left isolated whilst Bamba rampaged all over the place to little or no effect.

    As for Hoggs passing ability, I doubt he wants to be the man responsible for punting the ball up the park but he has been put in that position and is doing his best to carry out whatever instructions he has been given.
    Spot on Dub.

    Hogg should NOT be left with that responsibility but too often he was.

    Bamba had a pretty undisciplined approach last night I felt.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Shrink View Post
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    Spot on Dub.

    Hogg should NOT be left with that responsibility but too often he was.

    Bamba had a pretty undisciplined approach last night I felt.
    Agreed about Bamba. Thought he was actually trying too hard to make something happen last night. Could easily have been sent off for a very clumsy tackle after he'd picked up his booking too. But it would be fair to point out that his booking came about after a shocking pass from Hogg.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by greencol View Post
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    The second best goals against column in the SPL.



    As for slagging off Hogg for punting the ball long, maybe it was the best idea on that bog of a pitch.

    When guys like Liam Miller are struggling to get the ball under control its bad news.

    We do indeed have a pretty sound defensive record. And for that the Central Defence must take credit. But so must the full backs, midfield, forwards and goalkeepers.

    But just as the forwards and midfielders have a role in keeping goals out the defence has a role in the process of scoring at the other end. Both Wotherspoon and Murray at Full Back definitely add something in that respect but i'm not so sure about central defence. It's not just that Wotherspoon and Murray can physically get forward it's that their use of the ball generally IMO is quicker and better.

    Central defence try world cup passes that fail unless they're playing hospital balls to their full backs.

    IMHO they slow us down and if we're looking to improve as a team central defence is one area that needs improving because its distribution is slow and poor.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Bamba and Wotherspoon were the only two players worth their wages in the first half. Second half was a big improvement by all.

    Bamba tried to keep the ball moving, whereas Hogg reverted to aimless balls forward.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    We do indeed have a pretty sound defensive record. And for that the Central Defence must take credit. But so must the full backs, midfield, forwards and goalkeepers.

    But just as the forwards and midfielders have a role in keeping goals out the defence has a role in the process of scoring at the other end. Both Wotherspoon and Murray at Full Back definitely add something in that respect but i'm not so sure about central defence. It's not just that Wotherspoon and Murray can physically get forward it's that their use of the ball generally IMO is quicker and better.

    Central defence try world cup passes that fail unless they're playing hospital balls to their full backs.

    IMHO they slow us down and if we're looking to improve as a team central defence is one area that needs improving because its distribution is slow and poor.
    Their first job is protecting their keeper and keeping clean sheets. How many ball playing centre halfs are there in the entire SPL in your opinion? Cause off the top of my head I can think of next to none. Maybe Bougherra. Mulgrew impressed me last night. So maybe 2. From 12 sides. With a minimum of 3 or 4 centre halfs each. It's no like they grow on trees. Mulgrew was a converted winger, and now a converted left back. Bougherra the huns spent millions on and will be on a wage Hibs couldn't come close to matching.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by wee 162 View Post
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    Their first job is protecting their keeper and keeping clean sheets. How many ball playing centre halfs are there in the entire SPL in your opinion? Cause off the top of my head I can think of next to none. Maybe Bougherra. Mulgrew impressed me last night. So maybe 2. From 12 sides. With a minimum of 3 or 4 centre halfs each. It's no like they grow on trees. Mulgrew was a converted winger, and now a converted left back. Bougherra the huns spent millions on and will be on a wage Hibs couldn't come close to matching.
    Good point, even a lot of the defenders in the EPL wouldn't be classed as ball-playing centre halfs.

    There was a 3rd in the SPL... but Gary Caldwell's away now
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by wee 162 View Post
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    Their first job is protecting their keeper and keeping clean sheets. How many ball playing centre halfs are there in the entire SPL in your opinion? Cause off the top of my head I can think of next to none. Maybe Bougherra. Mulgrew impressed me last night. So maybe 2. From 12 sides. With a minimum of 3 or 4 centre halfs each. It's no like they grow on trees. Mulgrew was a converted winger, and now a converted left back. Bougherra the huns spent millions on and will be on a wage Hibs couldn't come close to matching.
    Maybe i'm just getting carried away (as are others possibly...) but at Half Time i was saying "Just what is it that's stopping us from getting up to that next level of being serious title contenders?". My thinking at half time last night (As i stood to put a tenner on us at 16/1);

    1, Our goalkeeper is fairly competitive with Boruc and McGeregor. Although i'd say i'd take either over Smith. But no much in it...

    2, Our full backs are just as good if not better...

    3, Bamba on pre African Cup form? Definitely good enough. Hogg? Not good enough.

    4, In Mcbride we've got possibly the best holding midfielder in the country.

    5, In Liam Miller i think only Davis of the Huns comes close when he's on form (Last nights blip is more to do with the pitch)

    6, Doubt Rankin would get near a Rantic starting 11.

    7, Zoumer more than good enough.

    8, In Stokes, Benji & Riordan they could score goals in any team. All would be challenging in any Rantic team. Nish? Probably not.

    So i thought our 3 players that we play that wouldn't get a sniff at Rantic were Hogg, Rankin & Nish.

    IMO though Nish gives our team something. As he proved in the second half. But if we want to push on and become better perhaps we need someone better to do the job we want him to do?

    Rankin for me isn't good enough. Workrate is fantastic. But poor passer. We could get better.

    Same with Hogg.

    But looking at the game based on the opening 45 (and at the end) i think it's Hogg that's the one out of the 3 that would be out any Rantic team the quickest. He's an ok defender but he gives us nothing else really. And more than that i think he slows us down. He can't play an accurate pass with pace.

    So back to your point... I agree there aren't many ball playing centre halfs but i'm just thinking 'What is stopping us seriously challenging 1st and 2nd' and 'How can we kick on next season and go one or two better?'.

    And based on the evidence i think Hogg, Nish and Rankin are the weak links. I know all 3 have their supporters and rightly so as all 3 give 100% week in week out. They try like $#@!. But based on an honest appraisal of their actual abilities etc. IMHO not good enough if we want to improve.

    And i honestly think it's the Hogg weakness that hurts us the most within a team framework.

    I'm sure Yogi must be asking himself 'Who do i need to replace to improve?' There has to be weaknesses or otherwise we'd be top of the league.

    As i said though perhaps i and others shouldn't be thinking how can we improve and be better and just enjoy what we have. Which is kind of barry but at the same time i want us to be winners. (As we all do!!)

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    And Bamba would walk into the England squad right enough.

    Being an effective ball winner and throwing the odd tackle at the expense of giving away countless fouls doesnt make you a competent CB.

    Bamba, IMHO, is second rate as time will tell.

    Get over it.


    Get over it indeed. Says the dude who only posts to slate Bamba and sing Hogg's praises. What a weird obession to have.

    Aye so IMHO Bamba is better than Hogg. That'll do it.
    Last edited by Keepitgreen; 11-02-10 at 16:51.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Hogg passing (long and short is pretty dreadful) but i think everyone knows this so someone from midfield should be dropping deep to take possession.
    As for Bamba, think he spent too long with Drogba, Toure and co and now thinks he's a superstar.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Maybe i'm just getting carried away (as are others possibly...) but at Half Time i was saying "Just what is it that's stopping us from getting up to that next level of being serious title contenders?". My thinking at half time last night (As i stood to put a tenner on us at 16/1);

    1, Our goalkeeper is fairly competitive with Boruc and McGeregor. Although i'd say i'd take either over Smith. But no much in it...

    2, Our full backs are just as good if not better...

    3, Bamba on pre African Cup form? Definitely good enough. Hogg? Not good enough.

    4, In Mcbride we've got possibly the best holding midfielder in the country.

    5, In Liam Miller i think only Davis of the Huns comes close when he's on form (Last nights blip is more to do with the pitch)

    6, Doubt Rankin would get near a Rantic starting 11.

    7, Zoumer more than good enough.

    8, In Stokes, Benji & Riordan they could score goals in any team. All would be challenging in any Rantic team. Nish? Probably not.

    So i thought our 3 players that we play that wouldn't get a sniff at Rantic were Hogg, Rankin & Nish.

    IMO though Nish gives our team something. As he proved in the second half. But if we want to push on and become better perhaps we need someone better to do the job we want him to do?

    Rankin for me isn't good enough. Workrate is fantastic. But poor passer. We could get better.

    Same with Hogg.

    But looking at the game based on the opening 45 (and at the end) i think it's Hogg that's the one out of the 3 that would be out any Rantic team the quickest. He's an ok defender but he gives us nothing else really. And more than that i think he slows us down. He can't play an accurate pass with pace.

    So back to your point... I agree there aren't many ball playing centre halfs but i'm just thinking 'What is stopping us seriously challenging 1st and 2nd' and 'How can we kick on next season and go one or two better?'.

    And based on the evidence i think Hogg, Nish and Rankin are the weak links. I know all 3 have their supporters and rightly so as all 3 give 100% week in week out. They try like $#@!. But based on an honest appraisal of their actual abilities etc. IMHO not good enough if we want to improve.

    And i honestly think it's the Hogg weakness that hurts us the most within a team framework.

    I'm sure Yogi must be asking himself 'Who do i need to replace to improve?' There has to be weaknesses or otherwise we'd be top of the league.

    As i said though perhaps i and others shouldn't be thinking how can we improve and be better and just enjoy what we have. Which is kind of barry but at the same time i want us to be winners. (As we all do!!)
    Fair point regards passing ability but he is a defender. It would be great if he could spray telling passes around the park, of course it would but he cant and therefore should be left to do what he does do well - defending.

    As KeithDev said [above] perhaps a midfielder should drop a bit deeper to take the ball and then he can spray the passes around.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithDev1875 View Post
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    Hogg passing (long and short is pretty dreadful) but i think everyone knows this so someone from midfield should be dropping deep to take possession.
    As for Bamba, think he spent too long with Drogba, Toure and co and now thinks he's a superstar.
    Maybe he's just grown too acustomed to team mates being able to control the ball at ease?
    We wanna be free, we wanna be free to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded, and we wanna have a good time... That's what we're gonna do

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    Re: Central Defence

    Since Hogg got the armband his preformance has droped, but since bamba has been back his mind is on other things hes been pish, so i dont think Bamba is much or better than Hogg. Bamba gets alot of luck in my opinion and is too clumsy and like jones gets pulled out of position to many times.

    Hanlon and Hogg for me.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Hogg's passing is identical to Caldwell's passing. A 40 yard diagonal hoof that 9 times out of 10 fails to reach it's target.
    hogg makes caldwell look like beckham. couldn't believe some of the passes last night


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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by fthuns View Post
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    hogg makes caldwell look like beckham. couldn't believe some of the passes last night

    In a similair vein, Bamba makes Bobo Balde look like Beckenbauer.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    Never going to happen.

    To even suggest that Bamba is capable of marshalling a back line is laughable.

    Hanlon could but too young to be given responsibility especially alongside the Bombscare.
    I can understand people sticking up for players being slated, but not in this case, you seem to have some sort of obssesion with Hogg, and something seriously against Bamba.. or as you would call him 'Bombscare'.

  42. #42
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    In a similair vein, Bamba makes Bobo Balde look like Beckenbauer.
    No, that's more alliteration.

    You know, like "more crap from critical $#@! Coolerking"


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    Re: Central Defence

    I've watched the game again and to be honest, apart from Hogg's passing ability, he did pretty much fukk all else wrong IMHO.

    We all know he can't pass. Until Yogi changes things [regards leaving Hogg with the ball to pump up the park] you'll just need to suck it up.

    Why not concentrate on [as Doc Shrink mentioned] the black Rob Jones performance. Nah, he's flavour of the month so he can't be slated.

    Hogg defends pretty well even when he has a lot of the park to cover so give the guy a break FFS.
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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    I've watched the game again and to be honest, apart from Hogg's passing ability, he did pretty much fukk all else wrong IMHO.

    We all know he can't pass. Until Yogi changes things [regards leaving Hogg with the ball to pump up the park] you'll just need to suck it up.

    Why not concentrate on [as Doc Shrink mentioned] the black Rob Jones performance. Nah, he's flavour of the month so he can't be slated.

    Hogg defends pretty well even when he has a lot of the park to cover so give the guy a break FFS.
    I know you wont be happy for me to say I like what you are saying therefore all i will say is I dont agree with what you are not saying.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by HibeeZab View Post
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    Maybe he's just grown too acustomed to team mates being able to control the ball at ease?

    Obviosuly wasn't watching hard enough then judging by the number of times his 2nd touch went about 5 yards in front of him on Wednesday.

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    Re: Central Defence

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithDev1875 View Post
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    Obviosuly wasn't watching hard enough then judging by the number of times his 2nd touch went about 5 yards in front of him on Wednesday.
    Maybe because he's used to playing on goos pitches as opposed to a tattie field?

    Seriously though, the players done well to play any football on that pitch.
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