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Thread: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

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    Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    you couldn't make this stuff up.

    "Academic publisher Blackwell has been accused of attempting to "dechristianise" the Encyclopedia of Christian Civilisation it was due to publish in order to make it politically correct.

    The Encyclopedia's editor-in-chief, George Kurian, claims that under pressure from an anti-Christian lobby, Blackwell decided that entries in the four-volume book were "too Christian, too orthodox, too anti-secular and too anti-Muslim and not politically correct enough for being used in universities". Kurian also claims that the press wants to delete words including "Antichrist", "Virgin Birth", "Resurrection", "Evangelism" and "Beloved Disciple" from the book, as well as objecting to "historical references to the persecution and massacres of Christians by Muslims".

    "To make the treatment 'more balanced', they also want the insertion of material denigrating Christianity in some form or fashion," Kurian wrote in a letter he circulated to contributors criticising Blackwell's actions. "This is the most blatant form of censorship in the history of religious publishing."

    Publisher accused of 'dechristianising' church encyclopedia | Books | guardian.co.uk

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Is it any less made up than this ?

    Some secondary school pupils will be asked to look at the co-ordinated suicide bombings on London's transport system from the standpoint of the Islamist extremists who carried them out
    Yahoo

    Tahir Alam, of the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said: "This isn't any different from any educational tool people use all the time. Pupils imagine they're poets and write a poem, or imagine they're living in the 12th century. If children are asked what the justification of bombings might be, they might talk about foreign policy or other grievances."
    Run away egb, runaway.
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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    Is it any less made up than this ?



    Yahoo



    Run away egb, runaway.
    Jim I'm interested in your take on this as an unapologetic atheist. i know you think the whole lot is bunk, but do you think there is a distinction in the way various forms of bunk, as you'd see it, are treated?

    please avoid the temptation to bait your hook as i'm looking to you as a sort of impartial observer here.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Here is what I think Mr Alam meant;

    Tahir Alam, of the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said: "This isn't any different from any educational tool people use all the time. Ordinary pupils imagine they're poets and write a poem, muslim children imagine they're living in the 7th century and self detonating on buses is the best way of achieving it. If children are asked what the justification of bombings might be, they might talk about foreign policy or other grievances."
    Seriously, why not look at a serial rapists justification for doing what they do ?
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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    We've clearly lost the plot now.

    Wouldn't an Encyclopedia of Christian Civilisation have a specific Christian civilisation viewpoint with respect to such items as "Antichrist", "Virgin Birth", "Resurrection", "Evangelism" and "Beloved Disciple", as well as "historical references to the persecution and massacres of Christians by Muslims". Wouldn't that be the purpose of an encylopedia of Christian Civilisation?

    Or am I missing something?

    Welcome to multi-cultural Britain egb, its only going to get better. You've become a nation of the adults from Wall-E.

    Absolutely no spine, just jelly quivering in fear of offending someone.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Whats not to like about chritianity? I will be chucked into the firey furnace when I'm done and I will be damned dissapointed if I'm not.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Strange censorship on the Christian book thingy.

    The bombings education thing; I was taught about terrorism in modern studies and we looked at the motivations for doing it so I don't actually see that as wrong in itself.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    you couldn't make this stuff up.

    "Academic publisher Blackwell has been accused of attempting to "dechristianise" the Encyclopedia of Christian Civilisation it was due to publish in order to make it politically correct.

    The Encyclopedia's editor-in-chief, George Kurian, claims that under pressure from an anti-Christian lobby, Blackwell decided that entries in the four-volume book were "too Christian, too orthodox, too anti-secular and too anti-Muslim and not politically correct enough for being used in universities". Kurian also claims that the press wants to delete words including "Antichrist", "Virgin Birth", "Resurrection", "Evangelism" and "Beloved Disciple" from the book, as well as objecting to "historical references to the persecution and massacres of Christians by Muslims".

    "To make the treatment 'more balanced', they also want the insertion of material denigrating Christianity in some form or fashion," Kurian wrote in a letter he circulated to contributors criticising Blackwell's actions. "This is the most blatant form of censorship in the history of religious publishing."

    Publisher accused of 'dechristianising' church encyclopedia | Books | guardian.co.uk
    Bonkers

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Some secondary school pupils will be asked to look at the co-ordinated suicide bombings on London's transport system from the standpoint of the Islamist extremists who carried them out

    Tahir Alam, of the Muslim Council of Great Britain, said: "This isn't any different from any educational tool people use all the time. Pupils imagine they're poets and write a poem, or imagine they're living in the 12th century. If children are asked what the justification of bombings might be, they might talk about foreign policy or other grievances."
    What troubles you about this?

    Cant see the problem with this at all. I cant remember trying to understand why people may have supported hitler as part of a history class as being seen as some sort of scandalous concession to the nazis.
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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by superbam View Post
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    What troubles you about this?

    Cant see the problem with this at all. I cant remember trying to understand why people may have supported hitler as part of a history class as being seen as some sort of scandalous concession to the nazis.
    you must be kidding. it is inconceivable that in a british school there would be a serious effort to get kids to see things from a nazi point of view.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    you couldn't make this stuff up.

    "Academic publisher Blackwell has been accused of attempting to "dechristianise" the Encyclopedia of Christian Civilisation it was due to publish in order to make it politically correct.

    The Encyclopedia's editor-in-chief, George Kurian, claims that under pressure from an anti-Christian lobby, Blackwell decided that entries in the four-volume book were "too Christian, too orthodox, too anti-secular and too anti-Muslim and not politically correct enough for being used in universities". Kurian also claims that the press wants to delete words including "Antichrist", "Virgin Birth", "Resurrection", "Evangelism" and "Beloved Disciple" from the book, as well as objecting to "historical references to the persecution and massacres of Christians by Muslims".

    "To make the treatment 'more balanced', they also want the insertion of material denigrating Christianity in some form or fashion," Kurian wrote in a letter he circulated to contributors criticising Blackwell's actions. "This is the most blatant form of censorship in the history of religious publishing."

    Publisher accused of 'dechristianising' church encyclopedia | Books | guardian.co.uk
    Maybe they could de-Christianise the bible next.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Maybe they could de-Christianise the bible next.
    i can almost guarantee someone will float the idea

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    i can almost guarantee someone will float the idea
    Well, if they get their snitched out of the state school system, I'll back the god botherers.

    Tolerance is a two way street.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Well, if they get their snitched out of the state school system, I'll back the god botherers.

    Tolerance is a two way street.
    obviously i disagree. tolerance is about live and let live, limited only by harm caused by one to another. RC and CoE schools harm no one; in fact they are small bulwarks against the overall destruction of the state education system.

    but let's not go down this road again. i'm encouraged to see people like you and HH disapprove of this madness. we may disagree about where lines ate drawn but it reassures me that we are on the same side of the most important line, as darkness falls around us.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    obviously i disagree. tolerance is about live and let live, limited only by harm caused by one to another. RC and CoE schools harm no one; in fact they are small bulwarks against the overall destruction of the state education system.

    but let's not go down this road again. i'm encouraged to see people like you and HH disapprove of this madness. we may disagree about where lines ate drawn but it reassures me that we are on the same side of the most important line, as darkness falls around us.
    Live and let live would be opening your doors to everyone. It was the philosophy which drove missionaries and put the church at the heart of communities. Minsters then were hard working driven people trying to do the best for everyone.......not much like the over upholstered lazy establishment fecks we have today.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Live and let live would be opening your doors to everyone. It was the philosophy which drove missionaries and put the church at the heart of communities. Minsters then were hard working driven people trying to do the best for everyone.......not much like the over upholstered lazy establishment fecks we have today.
    yes but outside your london experience this is the case. read the other day of some wooly jumpered liberal anglican withdrawing their sprog from the CoE school they hoped would provide a rounded social education. they did so given the domination of one religious cultural outlook; islam. the kid was the only non muslim in the class; at a CoE school

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    yes but outside your london experience this is the case. read the other day of some wooly jumpered liberal anglican withdrawing their sprog from the CoE school they hoped would provide a rounded social education. they did so given the domination of one religious cultural outlook; islam. the kid was the only non muslim in the class; at a CoE school
    They CofE have a point system here for getting into the state funded schools based on how many times you go to church. I know one muslim who is pretenting to be catholic every sunday to get her kid into school. She is a established professional and willlikely get in unlike the working class single mother who is being put through the mill be the priest just to get into catholic nursery (what a disgusting concept that is).

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    They CofE have a point system here for getting into the state funded schools based on how many times you go to church. I know one muslim who is pretenting to be catholic every sunday to get her kid into school. She is a established professional and willlikely get in unlike the working class single mother who is being put through the mill be the priest just to get into catholic nursery (what a disgusting concept that is).
    i disagree, natch, but the thing that really interests me about these accounts is how utterly different it is to up here, and also my general impression of rc schools in england generally.

    i have no problem with people being asked to demonstrate a genuine adherence to catholicism if they want to take advantage of preferential treatment in terms of allocating places; i make no apologies for believing catholic schools should do this for a %age of available places.

    but the disguised selection by wealth / class you sometimes allude to is something altogether different and i oppose this completely. in edinburgh, rc high schools are the only schools with a genuine class mix i'm aware of, and i believe it's a very good thing. sorry to dissapoint though, because i'll go on to say i only believe it's workable in such a context. i'd actively seek to place my kid in such a social mix when it's under those conditions. if it was in a general comp i wouldn't trust the anti-excellence / victim culture / identity politics / self hating ethos of the right on classes not to $#@! it up utterly.

    if guys like you succeed in getting shot of faith schools before mine reach high school age, i'll go private even if i have to sell some organs to do so. if that shuts down to i'll emigrate because the UK really will be $#@!ed.

    i'm sorry - i can understand your antipathy, but at least faith schools are labelled and optional. the destructive mania that inhabits the liberal establishment is something i have no confidence can be kept out of comprehensives, and i'd simply not take the chance on such a social mix under those circumstances (not that you get that in edinburgh where the non denom sector is strictly class segregated)

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    i disagree, natch, but the thing that really interests me about these accounts is how utterly different it is to up here, and also my general impression of rc schools in england generally.

    i have no problem with people being asked to demonstrate a genuine adherence to catholicism if they want to take advantage of preferential treatment in terms of allocating places; i make no apologies for believing catholic schools should do this for a %age of available places.

    but the disguised selection by wealth / class you sometimes allude to is something altogether different and i oppose this completely. in edinburgh, rc high schools are the only schools with a genuine class mix i'm aware of, and i believe it's a very good thing. sorry to dissapoint though, because i'll go on to say i only believe it's workable in such a context. i'd actively seek to place my kid in such a social mix when it's under those conditions. if it was in a general comp i wouldn't trust the anti-excellence / victim culture / identity politics / self hating ethos of the right on classes not to $#@! it up utterly.

    if guys like you succeed in getting shot of faith schools before mine reach high school age, i'll go private even if i have to sell some organs to do so. if that shuts down to i'll emigrate because the UK really will be $#@!ed.

    i'm sorry - i can understand your antipathy, but at least faith schools are labelled and optional. the destructive mania that inhabits the liberal establishment is something i have no confidence can be kept out of comprehensives, and i'd simply not take the chance on such a social mix under those circumstances (not that you get that in edinburgh where the non denom sector is strictly class segregated)
    How about only Catholics pay for Catholic education?

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    How about only Catholics pay for Catholic education?
    er, they (and other users of catholic schools) do.

    i'm not aware of any additional expense in proving a seat in a catholic school than in a non denom.

    it's all capacity in the state sector, it's all paid out of tax and taxpayers make their choice in terms of school selection.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    er, they (and other users of catholic schools) do.

    i'm not aware of any additional expense in proving a seat in a catholic school than in a non denom.

    it's all capacity in the state sector, it's all paid out of tax and taxpayers make their choice in terms of school selection.
    Everyone can apply for a non-denom school catholics can apply for those and Catholics only ones too.

    State subsidies for private schools then if you use that argument.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    you couldn't make this stuff up.

    "Academic publisher Blackwell has been accused of attempting to "dechristianise" the Encyclopedia of Christian Civilisation it was due to publish in order to make it politically correct.

    The Encyclopedia's editor-in-chief, George Kurian, claims that under pressure from an anti-Christian lobby, Blackwell decided that entries in the four-volume book were "too Christian, too orthodox, too anti-secular and too anti-Muslim and not politically correct enough for being used in universities". Kurian also claims that the press wants to delete words including "Antichrist", "Virgin Birth", "Resurrection", "Evangelism" and "Beloved Disciple" from the book, as well as objecting to "historical references to the persecution and massacres of Christians by Muslims".

    "To make the treatment 'more balanced', they also want the insertion of material denigrating Christianity in some form or fashion," Kurian wrote in a letter he circulated to contributors criticising Blackwell's actions. "This is the most blatant form of censorship in the history of religious publishing."

    Publisher accused of 'dechristianising' church encyclopedia | Books | guardian.co.uk
    Not so sure the story is as cut and dried as that. The publishers are saying this guy's claims are "completely without foundation". They go on to say that "a few if any contributions had been reviewed by the board as had been required". I wonder why?

    Surely Mr Kurian wasn't sneaking content in through the back door!

    The story certainly has more than a strong whiff of someone flinging the toys out the pram after being rumbled.

    It is also clear from the last paragraph that the book is not simply an encyclopaedia of Christianity but an account of the wider aspects of society that Christianity may impact upon.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Everyone can apply for a non-denom school catholics can apply for those and Catholics only ones too.
    i don't follow you. anyone can apply for any state school, at least up here, and capacity and cost is the same, so noone loses.

    State subsidies for private schools then if you use that argument.
    private schools subsidise the state in reality.
    (Auto Merged Post Below!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby View Post
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    Not so sure the story is as cut and dried as that. The publishers are saying this guy's claims are "completely without foundation". They go on to say that "a few if any contributions had been reviewed by the board as had been required". I wonder why?

    Surely Mr Kurian wasn't sneaking content in through the back door!

    The story certainly has more than a strong whiff of someone flinging the toys out the pram after being rumbled.
    that or the publishers fighting a defensive action after they've been rumbled.

    It is also clear from the last paragraph that the book is not simply an encyclopaedia of Christianity but an account of the wider aspects of society that Christianity may impact upon.
    that doesn't change anything in respect of the charges kurian makes
    Last edited by egb_hibs; 22-02-09 at 15:34. Reason: Auto Merged Post

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    Whats not to like about chritianity? I will be chucked into the firey furnace when I'm done and I will be damned dissapointed if I'm not.


    Agreed man!

    Stuff like this humours me, i know an asian that wrote to yellow pages (as a joke) to complain about the fact that a large portion of the population are asian and the inclusion of the word yellow was not PC in this day in age... thank F*** they laughed it off.

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    A True Gadgie/Gadgess Hampden_Hibby's Avatar
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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    that doesn't change anything in respect of the charges kurian makes
    Yes it does. It means the book is covering a wider area. An encyclopaedia about football is about football alone, an encyclopaedia about football in society brings in a whole load of issues such as hooliganism, sectarianism, money, the anti-football stance of Thatcher, etc etc.

    The publishers are quite clear that the book is not just about the religion in itself but the facets of society it has shaped. Only the most naive would think those facets will all be complimentary to christianity.

    If there is/was anti-christianity within a christian civilisation then it should be included in an encyclopaedia of christian civilisations.

    But maybe the publishers are out of order - none of us know without knowing the detail. To be honest I'm just enjoying reading about one of the god squad greeting about censorship.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby View Post
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    Yes it does. It means the book is covering a wider area. An encyclopaedia about football is about football alone, an encyclopaedia about football in society brings in a whole load of issues such as hooliganism, sectarianism, money, the anti-football stance of Thatcher, etc etc.

    The publishers are quite clear that the book is not just about the religion in itself but the facets of society it has shaped. Only the most naive would think those facets will all be complimentary to christianity.

    If there is/was anti-christianity within a christian civilisation then it should be included in an encyclopaedia of christian civilisations.
    yes but in terms of the charges levelled this changes nothing.

    But maybe the publishers are out of order - none of us know without knowing the detail. To be honest I'm just enjoying reading about one of the god squad greeting about censorship.
    I'm not sure why; the creeping censorship in today's society is quite a serious matter. one the God Squad, as you put it, are not instrumental in.

    if Kurian's charges are on the level it would fit with a wider tableaux of oppression and discrimination which is deeply damaging western society at a time when we really don't need it.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    I'm not sure why; the creeping censorship in today's society is quite a serious matter. one the God Squad, as you put it, are not instrumental in.

    if Kurian's charges are on the level it would fit with a wider tableaux of oppression and discrimination which is deeply damaging western society at a time when we really don't need it.
    I think it's the irony I enjoy the most.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    you couldn't make this stuff up.

    "Academic publisher Blackwell has been accused of attempting to "dechristianise" the Encyclopedia of Christian Civilisation it was due to publish in order to make it politically correct.

    The Encyclopedia's editor-in-chief, George Kurian, claims that under pressure from an anti-Christian lobby, Blackwell decided that entries in the four-volume book were "too Christian, too orthodox, too anti-secular and too anti-Muslim and not politically correct enough for being used in universities". Kurian also claims that the press wants to delete words including "Antichrist", "Virgin Birth", "Resurrection", "Evangelism" and "Beloved Disciple" from the book, as well as objecting to "historical references to the persecution and massacres of Christians by Muslims".

    "To make the treatment 'more balanced', they also want the insertion of material denigrating Christianity in some form or fashion," Kurian wrote in a letter he circulated to contributors criticising Blackwell's actions. "This is the most blatant form of censorship in the history of religious publishing."

    Publisher accused of 'dechristianising' church encyclopedia | Books | guardian.co.uk
    The article goes on to give the publisher's point of view, which denies Kurian's accusations and gives an alternative, plausible, version of events.

    I have no idea who is right here, but it is intellectually dishonest to quote one side of the argument as fact because it happens to fit with your politico-religious agenda.

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    Re: Publisher demands changes because Christian Encyclopedia is 'too Christian'

    Quote Originally Posted by Hampden_Hibby View Post
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    I think it's the irony I enjoy the most.
    that's the bit i'm missing; it's bleakly typical as i see it. part of an ongoing process, which is increasingly pervasive, and socially corrosive.
    (Auto Merged Post Below!)
    Quote Originally Posted by cloudy View Post
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    The article goes on to give the publisher's point of view, which denies Kurian's accusations and gives an alternative, plausible, version of events.

    I have no idea who is right here, but it is intellectually dishonest to quote one side of the argument as fact because it happens to fit with your politico-religious agenda.
    my agenda, my cloudy thinking friend, is opposition to creeping authoritarianism and the social cancer that is pc.

    the article is linked to so nothing is hidden. i'm afraid that i know which account i find plausible given a) the world we live in, and b) further info that's available on tinternet which i'll leave you to google at your leisure, lest you be misled by selective quoting.
    Last edited by egb_hibs; 22-02-09 at 19:20. Reason: Auto Merged Post

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