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Thread: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

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    Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    In case anyone missed this story from todays Scotsman.

    IN THE beds of the emergency departments where he has worked for more than 20 years, Dr Bill Morrison has seen primary-school children unconscious through alcohol, caked in their own waste and bearing wounds from falling as their legs gave way.
    Year on year, he has seen more and more NHS resources devoted to ensuring these pre-teens do not choke to death on their own vomit.

    Yesterday, he unveiled the findings of an investigation into the effects of Scotland's "bevvy culture" on its emergency rooms and warned the country was facing "social meltdown" in ten years.

    In the six-week period of the study, almost 650 youngsters were admitted to emergency departments, the youngest of them only eight years old.

    Many had also taken illegal drugs some solely with the intention of harming themselves and about a quarter had been assaulted.

    "We are greatly concerned about drinking in young people," said Dr Morrison. "There are children turning up intoxicated that can range from silly behaviour to those who are so unconscious with alcohol they are in danger of aspirating vomiting, getting vomit into their lungs and dying. We are storing up enormous problems. I don't think we can underestimate it."

    The report, from NHS Quality Improvement Scotland, shows only the tip of the iceberg of under-age drinking.

    In December, The Scotsman revealed that more than 2,000 youngsters had been arrested for being drunk and incapable in public. This week, we told how police in West Lothian were dealing with 12-year-olds swigging alcohol at four in the afternoon.

    The new work is aimed at informing government policy on alcohol in an attempt to reverse an apparent decline in which the country finds itself. Last night, alcohol and child-welfare experts called its findings "shocking".

    In his time at Ninewells Hospital, Dundee, Dr Morrison has seen teenage drunks in all stages of intoxication from "giggly and silly", through abusive, to close to death. "They need the same management as someone who has come in poisoned from prescription medication," he said.

    "They need close monitoring. They may need intubating (the insertion of a tube]. Usually, at this stage, they're unconscious. They have fallen over, probably injured themselves, and are incapable of spontaneous movement."

    Many do not learn their lesson. In the study, about two per cent of the youngsters attended A&E more than once, indicating a deeper-seated problem than an accidental "experiment". Ten per cent of the total also had alcohol-related issues in their medical history.

    Dr Morrison said the report was "damning" and he hoped it would highlight the situation to policymakers. "I have been a consultant in A&E for more than 15 years and my position is we are seeing more alcohol-related problems, and we are certainly seeing more problems in young people," he said.

    "Why? I wish I could answer that. I suspect greater availability, greater freedom on the part of children, that alcohol is relatively cheaper there are a number of factors which have contributed, or possibly contributed, to this. I suspect we are seeing patterns of behaviour likely to become reinforced unless we take serious action.

    "I think there's a trend for certain groups of children to engage in repeat behaviour and we need to break that. I think we are looking at patterns of alcohol activity being established early."

    The average child admitted to hospital through alcohol will have drunk 13 units equivalent to over six pints.

    In the report, almost half of the children (48 per cent) were there because they had suffered trauma an assault or an accident while 42 per cent attended solely because they were intoxicated. The older the child, the more likely they were to be there because of trauma.

    The vast majority of youngsters were discharged from the emergency department within four hours, but 22 per cent were sent on to other wards the psychiatric ward in many cases. Dr Morrison

    said poor parenting was a factor in some, although not all, cases and there was a genetic correlation between parent-and-child alcohol abuse.

    The report one of five looking at the effect alcohol has on A&E departments has made a series of recommendations for the Scottish Government.

    Dr Morrison said data collection needed to be improved, along with communication between different bodies, such as police and hospitals. He also said that services available after discharge from A&E, such as counselling, needed to be improved and perhaps bolstered by investment.

    Jack Law, the chief executive of Alcohol Focus Scotland, said it was "very concerning" that so many children needed hospital treatment because of alcohol, and particularly shocking that children as young as eight were involved.

    "Children's bodies aren't developed enough to cope with alcohol, so smaller amounts can lead to being dangerously drunk quite quickly," he said. "We must introduce more effective prevention and education measures, combined with stricter enforcement of the laws."

    Anne Houston, the chief executive of charity Children 1st, said the number of youngsters drinking to excess was "really concerning". She continued: "As well as damaging their health, being under the influence of alcohol leaves young people more at risk of harm.

    "We must involve children and young people in exploring why they feel the need to drink in the first place. We also need to take a hard look at the culture in Scotland, where drinking to excess is seen as socially acceptable."

    Shona Robison, the public health minister, said: "One young person attending an emergency department because of alcohol misuse is one too many. We must get better at diverting young people from misusing alcohol."

    She said efforts included cracking down on rogue retailers who sold to under-age drinkers, while alcohol education in schools was also being strengthened.



    THE DAMNING STATISTICS

    8 Age of the youngest patient treated during the audit where alcohol was a factor

    633 Youngsters aged between 13 and 17 treated in A&E during the audit where alcohol was a factor

    15 Youngsters aged between 8 and 12 treated at A&E during the audit where alcohol was a factor

    22 Percentage of youngsters who had also taken illegal drugs in the previous 24 hours

    16 Most common age for youngsters to be admitted in an alcohol-related case

    77 Assaults involving alcohol are dealt with daily in Scotland's A&Es
    A story every parent should read: 100 Scots children a week in A&E, drunk on about 6 pints each, aged as young as 8 - Scotsman.com News


    Welcome to Scotland in 2008. We can now add child alcoholism to the list of what makes Scotland what it is today; along with violence, stabbings, drug abuse, racism and bigotry. Man I can't wait to leave this $#@!hole of a country. You nationalists are welcome to it

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Thatchers Britain.

    Victorian values, 19th Century problems.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    how does an 8 year old get alcohol? thats like what? primary 3?

    $#@!ing disgusting anyone caught buying alcohol for people under 16 should be locked up. maybe time to increase the drinkin age?

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    Thatchers Britain.

    Victorian values, 19th Century problems.
    Thatchers Britain???? C'mon, give it a rest!!! 8 year olds could be born in the 21st century and I'd imagine very few would even have heard of Thatcher. This isn't a problem from the past, it's a problem that is affecting current times and the future.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Bampotto View Post
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    Thatchers Britain???? C'mon, give it a rest!!! 8 year olds could be born in the 21st century and I'd imagine very few would even have heard of Thatcher. This isn't a problem from the past, it's a problem that is affecting current times and the future.

    She shaped the society we are living in now for good or bad, no one else has looked to change things since the upheavals of the 80's. Pretty obvious.

    Whether 8 years olds have heard of Thatcher or not has nothing to do with it.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by GforGallo View Post
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    how does an 8 year old get alcohol? thats like what? primary 3?

    $#@!ing disgusting anyone caught buying alcohol for people under 16 should be locked up. maybe time to increase the drinkin age?
    The drinking age is currently 5 (under 5 you may only be given alcohol under medical instruction.) Other than that, the law (in terms of age) only relates to purchase and sale of alcohol, and acting as an agent for the purchase of alcohol by those not old enough to buy it.

    What is being described here is already illegal under either alcohol legislation or general child protection laws. I suppose the problem is enforcement - and, as far as younger children are concerned, the fact that there are parents / carers who are failing in their basic duties.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterHibster View Post
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    In case anyone missed this story from todays Scotsman.



    A story every parent should read: 100 Scots children a week in A&E, drunk on about 6 pints each, aged as young as 8 - Scotsman.com News


    Welcome to Scotland in 2008. We can now add child alcoholism to the list of what makes Scotland what it is today; along with violence, stabbings, drug abuse, racism and bigotry. Man I can't wait to leave this $#@!hole of a country. You nationalists are welcome to it
    You found a country where none of this happens?
    Do you feel like a rock star? : I do actually.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerousdavid View Post
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    You found a country where none of this happens?
    Take that point absolutely DD and whilst being the last person to want to knock Scotland, planty of other countries can be identified where this happens a whole lot less.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerousdavid View Post
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    You found a country where none of this happens?
    No, but I can think of a lot of countries, probably just about every other country in the western world in fact, where it happens a lot less

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    She shaped the society we are living in now for good or bad, no one else has looked to change things since the upheavals of the 80's. Pretty obvious.

    Whether 8 years olds have heard of Thatcher or not has nothing to do with it.
    So, does that make it Thatcher's fault or Major, Blair or Brown's??? I hate MT as much as the next man, but I think we need to look closer to home and not to twenty years ago to address the current problem.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Bampotto View Post
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    So, does that make it Thatcher's fault or Major, Blair or Brown's??? I hate MT as much as the next man, but I think we need to look closer to home and not to twenty years ago to address the current problem.
    Who's talking about fault?

    It's just the way society has been shaped.

    Victorian Britain had no shortage of Gin soaked minors.

    Since she shaped society as it is now and Major, Blair and Brown went along with that, her thrust toward Victorian Values seems to me a good reason to call the UK today "Thatcher's Britain."

    Understanding how we got here is a good way of finding how to get find a cure.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterHibster View Post
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    In case anyone missed this story from todays Scotsman.



    A story every parent should read: 100 Scots children a week in A&E, drunk on about 6 pints each, aged as young as 8 - Scotsman.com News


    Welcome to Scotland in 2008. We can now add child alcoholism to the list of what makes Scotland what it is today; along with violence, stabbings, drug abuse, racism and bigotry. Man I can't wait to leave this $#@!hole of a country. You nationalists are welcome to it
    300 years of Union have been really good for us , then???

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Is that the bass player form Ministry??? Is he deid????????

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    Thatchers Britain.

    Victorian values, 19th Century problems.
    Thatcher never got a look in north of the border. Look for the cause closer to home.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Stennyhibee View Post
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    300 years of Union have been really good for us , then???
    You just haven't integrated enough - lay down your pisshead Scottish ways.

    Why do th Scots drink so much, then. Because of the Union?

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    Since she shaped society as it is now
    She didn't shape family law which is a factor in this, and a factor in improving how things are. Worryingly, I suspect this may take a generation to fix. I'll be retiring by then.

    Understanding how we got here is a good way of finding how to get find a cure.
    I couldn't agree more.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Thatcher never got a look in north of the border. Look for the cause closer to home.
    My home?

    So what you're saying is Thatcher's policies have any effect in Scotland?

    Weird view if you ask me.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    My home?

    So what you're saying is Thatcher's policies have any effect in Scotland?

    Weird view if you ask me.
    You can't keep blaming Thatcher. Like a Celtic fan - it just doesn't wash.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple & Green View Post
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    She didn't shape family law which is a factor in this, and a factor in improving how things are.
    You'll need to tell me what that is man, what's the family law thing.


    Worryingly, I suspect this may take a generation to fix. I'll be retiring by then.
    A generation to fix, which shows it can easily be the fault of actions from a generation before. Thatcher's policies fractured family live for millions in this country - what it's left behind and what is still evident is people with no hope, the so called underclass, who feel the need to find oblivion in something, in this case alcohol. Not saying she deliberately set out to create alcoholic kids but if you invoke certain values you create certain problems for those with no hope of getting aboard with those values.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    You can't keep blaming Thatcher.
    It's not blame Col, it's a catchphrase for the society shaped by her policies. She as a person has nothing to do with it, it's legacy. Stick up for Maggie all you want but I find it daft if you can't see the correlation between her invoking what amounted to a "greed is good" ethos and how this country was in the 19th Century when greed was natural and you had and underclass who obliterated themselves in teh Gin Palaces. It's not as though when a new govt comes in everything starts again from scratch, particlularly the clowns we've had for the past ten years who have basically sat on their hands - there has been very little social engineering from them positive or negative.

    She created opportunities for a lot of people but that alone demands some detrius left behind. I remember when unemployment started to rise in the early 80's the spin then was "some people will have to put with it until the policies have been seen through, then everything will be ok again". For lots of people it was never ok again. I'm willing to bet there have been thousands of people my age and younger who have never been off benefits since, and their offspring are left a sense of inherited hopelessness. It's easy to blame them, and they are not all innocent, but she was far more destructive in certain areas without putting anything positive back in it's place, only handouts, which is no help at all, in fact it's partly to blame.

    Like a Celtic fan - it just doesn't wash.
    Quite.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterHibster View Post
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    Man I can't wait to leave this $#@!hole of a country. You nationalists are welcome to it
    Shut the door on the way out.
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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    It's not blame Col, it's a catchphrase for the society shaped by her policies. She as a person has nothing to do with it, it's legacy. Stick up for Maggie all you want but I find it daft if you can't see the correlation between her invoking what amounted to a "greed is good" ethos and how this country was in the 19th Century when greed was natural and you had and underclass who obliterated themselves in teh Gin Palaces. It's not as though when a new govt comes in everything starts again from scratch, particlularly the clowns we've had for the past ten years who have basically sat on their hands - there has been very little social engineering from them positive or negative.

    She created opportunities for a lot of people but that alone demands some detrius left behind. I remember when unemployment started to rise in the early 80's the spin then was "some people will have to put with it until the policies have been seen through, then everything will be ok again". For lots of people it was never ok again. I'm willing to bet there have been thousands of people my age and younger who have never been off benefits since, and their offspring are left a sense of inherited hopelessness. It's easy to blame them, and they are not all innocent, but she was far more destructive in certain areas without putting anything positive back in it's place, only handouts, which is no help at all, in fact it's partly to blame.
    As an avid Thatcher hater, even I am struggling to find the link between underage drinking and MT's reign of terror. Did underage drinking suddenly manifest in 1985 ? Did Scotland's well documented chronic alcohol abuse just get started in the late 80s ? As it gets worse, should we look back in time and say "That $#@!, she kicked it off." ?
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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    As an avid Thatcher hater, even I am struggling to find the link between underage drinking and MT's reign of terror. Did underage drinking suddenly manifest in 1985 ? Did Scotland's well documented chronic alcohol abuse just get started in the late 80s ? As it gets worse, should we look back in time and say "That $#@!, she kicked it off." ?
    Me too, moere so the Union.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    As an avid Thatcher hater, even I am struggling to find the link between underage drinking and MT's reign of terror. Did underage drinking suddenly manifest in 1985 ? Did Scotland's well documented chronic alcohol abuse just get started in the late 80s ? As it gets worse, should we look back in time and say "That $#@!, she kicked it off." ?
    The then breakup of family units which has it's fallout today, yes she kicked it off.

    BTW In the 18th and early 19th centuries the Scottish stereotype was one of abstinence, tee-totalism. It was the Industrial Revolution that saw the beginings of rampant alcoholism and the offshoot of that in the early 20th century was poor family live, $#@! housing and diseases like rickets.It's a long term thing if yuo think short term as in the spans of Govts you don't getthe full picture - it's not as though the ills she caused, or all the good things that came out those policies suddenly reest themselves as soon an administration changed.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    The then breakup of family units which has it's fallout today, yes she kicked it off.

    BTW In the 18th and early 19th centuries the Scottish stereotype was one of abstinence, tee-totalism. It was the Industrial Revolution that saw the beginings of rampant alcoholism and the offshoot of that in the early 20th century was poor family live, $#@! housing and diseases like rickets.It's a long term thing if yuo think short term as in the spans of Govts you don't getthe full picture - it's not as though the ills she caused, or all the good things that came out those policies suddenly reest themselves as soon an administration changed.


    Correct. And we've got the First World War to thank for it not being so today. Scotland was knee deep in piss and whiskey pre 1914.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    The then breakup of family units which has it's fallout today, yes she kicked it off.
    Obviously there was no policy to deliberately break up family units so you mean as an indirect result of her policies ? With all due respect Snoots, I think you are playing a blame game here to lay it all at he feet of Thatcher. Sure, she was a **** but I can't make the link between her and 8 year olds getting drunk directly. As you go on to say;

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    It was the Industrial Revolution that saw the beginings of rampant alcoholism and the offshoot of that in the early 20th century was poor family live, $#@! housing and diseases like rickets.

    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    Correct. And we've got the First World War to thank for it not being so today. Scotland was knee deep in piss and whiskey pre 1914.
    So are we just getting back to our roots ?
    Charlie don't surf !

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    The then breakup of family units which has it's fallout today, yes she kicked it off.

    .

    But she was very pro-family. I recall single parents being blamed for quite a pot by Peter Lilley and being part of a broken home in the 80s had quite a bit of shame attached.

    If governments can shape societies in the way you suggest, what policies would prevent family break up, then? I hope you are right because I've struggled with this issue.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    Thatchers Britain.

    Victorian values, 19th Century problems.
    as much, if not more, roy jenkins britain. the 1960s created the social changes which stripped people of personal responsibility, and made the pursuit of incontinent desires both the aim and the compass for many lives.

    thatcher then removed the social props which shielded people from having to be self-reliant.

    you're right though that ultimately it's just gin lane again - although that presents a whole different set of problems in a welfare state with a declining workforce.

    and it's rather unlikely the methodists will save the day this time around.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    But she was very pro-family. I recall single parents being blamed for quite a pot by Peter Lilley and being part of a broken home in the 80s had quite a bit of shame attached.

    If governments can shape societies in the way you suggest, what policies would prevent family break up, then? I hope you are right because I've struggled with this issue.
    government can financially incentivise and disincentivise behaviours.

    however it's not the whole answer.

    i agree with the line of thought that in the last 40 years, the right have won politically and the left have won culturally. this is a product of both those facts, and correcting the cultural aspect is much more significant, but much more elusive.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    government can financially incentivise and disincentivise behaviours.

    however it's not the whole answer.

    i agree with the line of thought that in the last 40 years, the right have won politically and the left have won culturally. this is a product of both those facts, and correcting the cultural aspect is much more significant, but much more elusive.
    Its not just governments that set the cultural agenda, of course, if fact they are likely to be selected because they have fallen in line with it.

    You could also include the influence of the media, for example.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Its not just governments that set the cultural agenda, of course, if fact they are likely to be selected because they have fallen in line with it.

    You could also include the influence of the media, for example.
    i agree completely. that's not what the argument i'm alluding to is, er, arguing.

    there's a theory that the right dominated politics and won, while the left dominate education, the arts and the media and thus set the terms of our contemporary culture.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    i agree completely. that's not what the argument i'm alluding to is, er, arguing.

    there's a theory that the right dominated politics and won, while the left dominate education, the arts and the media and thus set the terms of our contemporary culture.
    I've heard that theory. It seems compelling from the viewpoint of the 1980/90s.

    The media seems more concerned with turning on the west at every chance these days.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterHibster View Post
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    In case anyone missed this story from todays Scotsman.



    A story every parent should read: 100 Scots children a week in A&E, drunk on about 6 pints each, aged as young as 8 - Scotsman.com News


    Welcome to Scotland in 2008. We can now add child alcoholism to the list of what makes Scotland what it is today; along with violence, stabbings, drug abuse, racism and bigotry. Man I can't wait to leave this $#@!hole of a country. You nationalists are welcome to it



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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Stu View Post
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    Take that point absolutely DD and whilst being the last person to want to knock Scotland, planty of other countries can be identified where this happens a whole lot less.
    Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Afghanistan...

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCoolerKing View Post
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    Abolute garbage!

    Labour have reversed 1000 yrs of history and turned this country into a multi-cultural piss-pot.
    err, the UK is only 301 years old. You're 699 years oot.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilrig View Post
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    err, the UK is only 301 years old. You're 699 years oot.
    1000 years ago we were all taking up the tailpipe from the French.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    You'll need to tell me what that is man, what's the family law thing.
    Family law has changed alot since the 70's in regard to divorce, and children. The upshoot of those laws, in tandem with social shifts has been less involvement from fathers - and I'd be amazed if there isn't a link between father involvement and likelihood to be teenage alcohol abusers. It's not the only factor though, mind.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple & Green View Post
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    Family law has changed alot since the 70's in regard to divorce, and children. The upshoot of those laws, in tandem with social shifts has been less involvement from fathers - and I'd be amazed if there isn't a link between father involvement and likelihood to be teenage alcohol abusers. It's not the only factor though, mind.
    I'm not sure the system has ever been father friendly.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    I'm not sure the system has ever been father friendly.
    Prior to the guardianship Act in 1973 authority over a legitimate child lay with the father alone. Oh how that's changed.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple & Green View Post
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    Prior to the guardianship Act in 1973 authority over a legitimate child lay with the father alone. Oh how that's changed.
    Interesting. Heath government (with Thatcher).

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    A British couple accused of abandoning their three young children when they allegedly fell unconscious after a drinking session will appear in court this afternoon to be questioned by a judge.

    Eamon McGuckin, a bank executive, and his wife, Antoinette, are alleged to have fallen into a drunken stupor in the Algarve golfing resort of Villa Maura in front of their children aged 1 to 6.

    The alleged incident has high-lighted concern in the Algarve at the growing number of British parents drinking themselves into a stupor while on holiday. Emergency services said that it was not unusual to take British mothers and fathers to hospital in alcoholic comas.
    However, the case has received massive media coverage in Portugal, where it has been cited as an example of how British holidaymakers are drinking too much and putting their children at risk.

    Jorge Craveiro, a retired restaurant owner, told Diario de Noticias: “There are couples who walk out drunk after dinner. Quite often it’s the children who have to help them to reach their apartments as the parents aren’t in a state to do it alone.”
    The Times

    More alcohol madness but this time the parents.
    Charlie don't surf !

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    Obviously there was no policy to deliberately break up family units so you mean as an indirect result of her policies ?
    I can think of one policy she invoked which might have had an impact - Tebbit's call for wage-earner's to "get on their bike's and look for work". A bit of a tangent but they didn't care about the impact that would have on those family's. What I'm saying is that the policies she put in place had a positive impact for some but a devastating impact on others. Those who benefited arfe still around now and those who's communities were a shattered are still around now and feeling the consequences. If the good things can still be felt today so can the bad.



    With all due respect Snoots, I think you are playing a blame game here to lay it all at he feet of Thatcher. Sure, she was a **** but I can't make the link between her and 8 year olds getting drunk directly.
    I couldn't actually care about her or any blame - as I said it's a catchphrase to encompass a society forged by her policies, a society we are still living in. She thought the world of Tony Blair otherwise she wouldn't have visited him at no10 - New Labour just embossed her vision further.

    As you go on to say;
    There was an improvement in the 50's and 60's people had semi-decent housing to live in and a sense of community - however a lot of those houses, built under Labour Govt's, were slums waiting to dis-integrate - and the subsequent unemployment and social movement destroyed a lot of the community spirit they had for that short time.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    as much, if not more, roy jenkins britain. the 1960s created the social changes which stripped people of personal responsibility, and made the pursuit of incontinent desires both the aim and the compass for many lives.

    thatcher then removed the social props which shielded people from having to be self-reliant.
    I can take that on-board - that social programme did make a lot of people reliant and promote a welfare state which gave a false sense of security. That welfare state became a sheild which the tories used to hide the worse excesses of shutting parts of the popualtion out of the opportunites she was creating. Even worse than the alcohol abuse, by whatever age, is the abuse of drugs legal and illegal. There was a thread on here about the tawse recently. What's worse for kids the belt or ritalin?

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Bampotto View Post
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    Is that the bss player form Ministry??? Is he deid????????
    Aye, I am a massive Killing Joke fan. V Sad. Thankfully, I saw him at his prime.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Before we descend into moral panic, it might be worth mentioning that there are approximately 650,000 people in the 8-17 age category. The number of eight year olds hospitalised for alcohol related incidents is, by the reports own stats, miniscule. This is still disturbing reading but a sense of perspective shouldn't go amiss.

    PQ123

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by pq123 View Post
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    Before we descend into moral panic, it might be worth mentioning that there are approximately 650,000 people in the 8-17 age category. The number of eight year olds hospitalised for alcohol related incidents is, by the reports own stats, miniscule. This is still disturbing reading but a sense of perspective shouldn't go amiss.

    PQ123
    perhaps it's small, but then again - WHAT THE FECK DO YOU EXPECT FOR ALCOHOLISM IN THE FECKIN 8 to 17 BAND

    it's hardly a lone signal either - we are going down the pan; yes every generation fears it, but one generation has always - historically - been right.

    the confluence of factors in yoorop right now is pretty clear in what it points too, for those prepared to just look at the data

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    I wonder how many of the children mentioned in the article are living with a parent who has a drink problem. Children learn what they live and copy behaviours from the adults around them. If said adults are needing/depending on drink to cope with stressful and emotional events, then its likely the children will do likewise - turn to alcohol or some other drug to cope with problems.

    Lets face it, its not only Scotland that has this problem - just where was Alcoholics Anonymous created to start with, it was not Britain, however, its here now. Alcoholism is a family disease - for every person who needs/depends on alcohol to cope with stress etc, there are at least 10 people's lives, childhoods, homes etc destroyed by the problem drinkers actions and behaviour. Denial of this disease is what really keeps it going - until such time we deal with the cause of a person needing to drink.



    A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE -
    IT WORKS ONLY WHEN OPEN






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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Snoots -

    There was an improvement in the 50's and 60's people had semi-decent housing to live in and a sense of community - however a lot of those houses, built under Labour Govt's, were slums waiting to dis-integrate - and the subsequent unemployment and social movement destroyed a lot of the community spirit they had for that short time.



    You have got this spot on!

    My Scheme in the 1970's had teachers, Doctors, Plumbers etc etc living in it. The Social cohesion was excellent. We were all the same!! All the kids did was put jerseys on a bit of grass and played fitba until the sun set.

    Now all that is left on that scheme is poor single mums, drug addicts and other poor souls. All the walls are spray painted and half the houses are boarded up.

    The Bairns brought up in this turn into shell suited Neds drinking Buckfast?....Quelle Suprise.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by Stennyhibee View Post
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    My Scheme in the 1970's had teachers, Doctors, Plumbers etc etc living in it. The Social cohesion was excellent. We were all the same!! All the kids did was put jerseys on a bit of grass and played fitba until the sun set.

    Now all that is left on that scheme is poor single mums, drug addicts and other poor souls. All the walls are spray painted and half the houses are boarded up.
    Pretty much my experience as well.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    Quote Originally Posted by snoots View Post
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    Pretty much my experience as well.
    "The workers flag is stained with claret, they live in houses built by Barratt."

    Can't recall who said that - may have been Prescott.

    The percentage of people living in Local Authority accommodation is a fraction of what it was as homes have been easier to buy and Housing Associations have been funded to provide social rented housing along side market rentals and owner/occupied property.

    Local Authorities are obliged to house some classes of fol (e.g. homeless) so that has had an effect on the estates that are left.

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    Re: Scotland facing "social meltdown" within ten years

    This is a good discussion:-

    Alcohol abuse: remember Gin Lane | Magnus Linklater - Times Online

    Agree that this issue is a national embarrassment.

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