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Thread: The "Big Team" and the "Wee Team".

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    Lightbulb The "Big Team" and the "Wee Team".

    Since losing the Scottish Cup match at Tynecastle, the usual suspects have come out of their cubby-holes and there's been a full-scale onslaught of the four-month jambos that you only hear when they've beaten Hibs.

    The most oft-repeated mantra is, as usual, the return of the 'wee team'.

    The fact that Hearts are MUCH bigger than Hibs is proven, typically, by a shoddily produced (yet accurate) infographic of the derby record and which club has won what. Over the years, there is absolutely no doubt that Hearts have been substantially more successful than Hibs - no reasonable person would dispute this.

    But is that a fair reflection of "size"?

    For me, club holdings or facilities are a better measure; as are attendances. And in that regard, it's remarkable just how closely Hibs resemble Hearts. For example, the average attendance at Tynecastle for this season is 18,840 while it's 17,866 at Easter Road. That means that Hibs, in their first season back in the Premiership, are averaging just 5% less people than Hearts are. Essentially, that's close to the 3% margin for error and it's widely accepted that Hibs have traditionally travelled better than Hearts.

    Of course, let's not be stupid about this. Year on year, Hearts have better home attendances than we do and there's no reason to try and hide that. It's a fact. But with this year seeing such a small difference, especially given the additional years it took Hibs to get out of the Championship, it's not a big gap.

    And for comparison, Scotland's second team (though now probably third) have averaged 15,835 this season - making Aberdeen's attendances 11% lower than Hibs and a full 16% lower than Hearts. It's worth mentioning, however, that Edinburgh has more than double the amount of people in which to fill two stadiums (465k to about 197k), and all three sides are geographically pretty tight. Aberdeen only has one major team so there's less competition for supporters, but it's still a big population difference.

    So, next, we look at stadiums.

    Both have seen significant upgrades recently, and there isn't a substantial amount between them in terms of modernity and facilities. Easter Road is obviously more modern, save for one stand at Tynecastle, but I wouldn't say it's a far better home park. Capacities are, however, practically neck and neck; Easter Road is slightly bigger (20,421), but it's once again squarely within the margin of error with Tynecastle now at 20,099 (just under 2% less).

    In terms of stadia, there's nothing in it.

    But what about squad wages? Since administration, Hearts have cleaned up a great deal of their wage bill and now operate in a much lower stratosphere than they did prior to relegation. That said, they're still coughing up a bit more than Hibs at an average of 95,914 per year compared to our 87,100 a year (we're 9% behind in terms of wages). These figures are pulled from the Global Sports Salaries Survey.

    But what of training facilities?

    The difference in quality isn't all that big. Hearts train at Riccarton which, since its upgrade, boasts a top-class suite of facilities. East Mains, of course, houses 6 pitches (one of which is floodlit), specialist training areas, a gym, a pool and designated physiotherapy areas. The big difference here is that Hibs OWN East Mains. It's ours. Hearts, of course, don't own Riccarton, and merely lease it.

    So while the facilities are evenly matched, Hibs are ahead in terms of bricks and mortar.

    But, lastly, it's worth mentioning on-field performance. Yes, it's established that Hibs are miles behind Hearts in terms of derby performances and major honours. But history is history - and Hibs have won both of Scotland's major honours more recently than Hearts, and are currently a place higher in the league.

    The conclusion?

    The next time some yuppie Jambo starts giving it pelters about big teams and wee teams, there's no real need to be defensive or argumentative. The bottom line is that both clubs are of comparable size, both have supporter-led investment at the financial level (HSA and the FoH), and stadia are roughly equivalent. The big differences are historical performance, where Hearts are miles ahead, and training facilities, where Hibs are miles ahead.

    In short, there's nothing between Hibs and Hearts in terms of size.

    Don't bother with muppets arguing otherwise.

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    I take issue with your attendance average. Their figures are inflated because they let 8000 sheep and 14000 Huns in Murrayfield.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I take issue with your attendance average. Their figures are inflated because they let 8000 sheep and 14000 Huns in Murrayfield.
    Good point. Their attendance since returning to Tynecastle isn’t great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I take issue with your attendance average. Their figures are inflated because they let 8000 sheep and 14000 Huns in Murrayfield.
    That's true, but they don't massively inflate the overall average from what I can tell; and there's still no real argument that Hearts consistently average more home supporters than we do, year on year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    That's true, but they don't massively inflate the overall average from what I can tell; and there's still no real argument that Hearts consistently average more home supporters than we do, year on year.
    They've averaged around 1500 more each season the last 30 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    That's true, but they don't massively inflate the overall average from what I can tell; and there's still no real argument that Hearts consistently average more home supporters than we do, year on year.
    Helps though say they were at Tynecastle, they may have got 3.5k of these supporters for these two games. So 7k from 22k equals 15k and in 12 home games equates to an extra 1250 fans. That does not include if there was extra home fans as well, as I have no idea how many turned up. So take away that 1250 fans from the current average and it is 17,590 if my counting is correct, and that I believe is less than Hibs 17,866 average. Big team indeed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    That's true, but they don't massively inflate the overall average from what I can tell; and there's still no real argument that Hearts consistently average more home supporters than we do, year on year.
    Yes they do. @Smurf has a valid point. I've used the back of a fag packet for this. 12 "home" games at an average of 18840 = 226,080 in total. Deducting the inflated figures as he mentioned [total] 22,000 = 204,080. Allowing for some sheep/hun attendance had the game been at Tynie say 6000 between them and thats probably generous, the figure rises to 210,080. Divided in to the home games [12] makes their average 17506 which is lower than Hibs. Lets tell it how it is instead of waving it away stating it wont make much difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    Yes they do. @Smurf has a valid point. I've used the back of a fag packet for this. 12 "home" games at an average of 18840 = 226,080 in total. Deducting the inflated figures as he mentioned [total] 22,000 = 204,080. Allowing for some sheep/hun attendance had the game been at Tynie say 6000 between them and thats probably generous, the figure rises to 210,080. Divided in to the home games [12] makes their average 17506 which is lower than Hibs. Lets tell it how it is instead of waving it away stating it wont make much difference.
    Yep, fair.

    My wider point is that there's not a great deal in attendances. Hearts and Hibs routinely have similar attendances, that Hearts historically edge. Given their competitive dominance over the last thirty years, the resilience of the Hibs support is absolutely extraordinary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    both have supporter-led investment at the financial level (HSA and the FoH)
    The difference being that at Hibs the fans investment has meant fan ownership of over 34% so far. At Hearts it currently stands at 0%.
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quite a bit past it radge






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    I love the 'wee team' jibes I get - the confusion on the Gunt fizzog when I just snigger at the references really makes my day.

    Deluded puddle drinkers.


    We only have one thing in common with the Gunts - we are all fixated on Hibs.

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    When it comes to the “big” teams/games, there is no bigger than Europe, we pi$$ all over them

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    The difference being that at Hibs the fans investment has meant fan ownership of over 34% so far. At Hearts it currently stands at 0%.
    I had a “debate” with a gunt on twitter on this, he reliably informed me that the gunt fans owned 80% of hearts, on his last “report” he said it reads as 79.5% trying to be exact..but of course he couldnt prove it to me... they really do live in a fantasy world

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    Are those C##t's no ****ing deid yet radge



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    $#@! them. Let them have their claim. If being bigger means pathologically NEEDING to lay out pie charts and diagrams to show people how big you are then I'm happy to leave them to it.
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    $#@! the big team!


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    Quote Originally Posted by HATTIE View Post
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    I had a “debate” with a gunt on twitter on this, he reliably informed me that the gunt fans owned 80% of hearts, on his last “report” he said it reads as 79.5% trying to be exact..but of course he couldnt prove it to me... they really do live in a fantasy world
    My understanding is that once the Foundation pays back Ann Budge's investment (over 6m, I think), she hands over her shareholding. So, in general terms, that means that they might have paid up to 80% of the debt, but that doesn't actually give them anything tangible and they're still contributing toward operating costs which eats into the loan repayments.

    Budge bought the majority shareholding from Mad Vlad, but I'm not sure what percentage that is.

    As @Dub did earlier, I'm happy to be corrected. I've not really looked at the Foundation, because its official literature is annoyingly vague to read.

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    Easy Now Radge



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    Tiny capacity is not 20,099. This is a made up figure. It's around the 19 and half mark but nobody knows for sure as they refuse to reveal the true figure because it embarrasses them for some reason.


    As for their average it is skewiff because the extra away fans at Murrayfield.

    Dons - 6850
    Huns - 14100
    St J - 1226
    Killie - 1227

    23,403 away fans for the novelty of playing at Murrayfield.

    The Roseburn holds 3676 so say there was no rugby trip and played at Tiny instead, giving Huns and Dons full capacity...that would be 9805 for all 4 games. By playing at Murrayfield they have managed to massage their attendance numbers by an extra 13,598. Just short off an extra game really.


    It's all daft though, as we know traditionally they have roughly around 1500 or so more fans over the years. Which is nothing to us but for them it is a humongous crumb of comfort. And the whole club and everything about them are totally obsessed by it. Manic even. Which is why I like to wind them up about it at every opperchancity. Silly gunts.

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    I don’t mind being the wee team.

    Makes it all the better when we skelp them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    That's true, but they don't massively inflate the overall average from what I can tell; and there's still no real argument that Hearts consistently average more home supporters than we do, year on year.
    I wouldnt go to far down that road.

    If you average out home attendance figures from 1905 (since decent records began) based on the book "Roar of the crowd" by some Killie stats anorak and then bring it up to date with the help of some Hibs anorak you find that since records began Hearts have around 1,500 supporters than us.

    I don't have access to my stats just now but its something like 13,500 to 12,000 in their favour.

    So they would win that argument but not by the umpteen thousand that so many claim.
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    I'll admit our record head to head up against them has me pissed off. There's no real explanation or justification for having such a poor record up against them. For whatever reason on the days up against them they've managed to raise their game even when a poorer team. Perhaps to them they've attached more historical importance to the fixture? In more recent times and I kind of mean the last 20 years I don't think we've been inferior to them at all in any respect and that includes head to head. And in that period they've largely lived out with their means and us within our means. That ultimately gave them their 'but, but...5-1' and to be honest yes it hurt at the time but frankly i couldn't give a $#@! anymore. That win was tainted. It was a fraudulent win. It's amazing now when they give it the 'but, but....5-1' as they are laughed it. You can almost sense their embarrassment. And with that I'm very happy for them to think they are the 'Big team' and us the 'Wee team'. It opens them up to such ridicule it's great. I mean look at their stadium upgrade. Fifteen million quid for a stand that gives them a capacity smaller than ours FFS!! And that they've STILL not confirmed their actual capacity is proof that they are $#@! scared of their own support knowing that the BIG TEAM has the SMALL STADIUM! They really do keep on giving....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I'll admit our record head to head up against them has me pissed off. There's no real explanation or justification for having such a poor record up against them. For whatever reason on the days up against them they've managed to raise their game even when a poorer team. Perhaps to them they've attached more historical importance to the fixture? In more recent times and I kind of mean the last 20 years I don't think we've been inferior to them at all in any respect and that includes head to head. And in that period they've largely lived out with their means and us within our means. That ultimately gave them their 'but, but...5-1' and to be honest yes it hurt at the time but frankly i couldn't give a $#@! anymore. That win was tainted. It was a fraudulent win. It's amazing now when they give it the 'but, but....5-1' as they are laughed it. You can almost sense their embarrassment. And with that I'm very happy for them to think they are the 'Big team' and us the 'Wee team'. It opens them up to such ridicule it's great. I mean look at their stadium upgrade. Fifteen million quid for a stand that gives them a capacity smaller than ours FFS!! And that they've STILL not confirmed their actual capacity is proof that they are $#@! scared of their own support knowing that the BIG TEAM has the SMALL STADIUM! They really do keep on giving....
    when mercer (latterly vlad) injected the cash, it coincided with going from 2 games a season to 4 games a season...that helped their stats
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I'll admit our record head to head up against them has me pissed off. There's no real explanation or justification for having such a poor record up against them. For whatever reason on the days up against them they've managed to raise their game even when a poorer team. Perhaps to them they've attached more historical importance to the fixture? In more recent times and I kind of mean the last 20 years I don't think we've been inferior to them at all in any respect and that includes head to head. And in that period they've largely lived out with their means and us within our means. That ultimately gave them their 'but, but...5-1' and to be honest yes it hurt at the time but frankly i couldn't give a $#@! anymore. That win was tainted. It was a fraudulent win. It's amazing now when they give it the 'but, but....5-1' as they are laughed it. You can almost sense their embarrassment. And with that I'm very happy for them to think they are the 'Big team' and us the 'Wee team'. It opens them up to such ridicule it's great. I mean look at their stadium upgrade. Fifteen million quid for a stand that gives them a capacity smaller than ours FFS!! And that they've STILL not confirmed their actual capacity is proof that they are $#@! scared of their own support knowing that the BIG TEAM has the SMALL STADIUM! They really do keep on giving....
    20 odd years of financial doping may have helped their cause.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HibeeZab View Post
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    20 odd years of financial doping may have helped their cause.
    That's what I said!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    That's what I said!
    So you did - I missed that line!
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    Same amount of League flags and a handful more cups, a few of which bankrupted them and should've led to liquidation. $#@! them all.

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    Good post. Objective and reasonable, qualities that I think the majority of our city rivals fail to possess. The big team wee team pish no longer bothers me, its bollocks for a number of reasons including many very well articulated above.

    Hearts fans know this too, they just cant/wont admit it.

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    I normally try to keep out of these sort of daft discussions as to be honest I find the whole Hibs/Hearts digs from both clubs embarrassing. My tuppenceworth is this and it has never changed. Hibs and Hearts are practically identical. Both clubs have had a great history and both have had very good and very bad teams over the years. Support is practically the same, with Hearts having a slightly bigger core support. Stadiums are both about the same capacity wise, it' just that from my biased point of view Easter Road is a better stadium. Turnover and status in the game in Scotland more or less the same. Average attendances more or less the same with Hearts maybe a fraction higher than Hibs. There are three identical clubs in the next level down in size from the Old Firm in Scotland....Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen. All three are very, very similar in size and status in the game in Scotland. In short there is no such thing as a big team or a wee team in Edinburgh or Aberdeen for that matter as all three clubs amount to the more less the same in terms of their status in Scottish football.
    "I can't stress enough how important it is to be in possession of the football - it is better to be the matador rather than the bull"

    John Hughes

  26. #26
    Radge Private Member





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    I suppose looking at the sporting achievements of both clubs combined you could say, in a Scottish context, the football clubs in Edinburgh have failed their audience.

    On the bigger stage Hibs failed to capitalise on their European/international glory days while the gunts never sold much petrol!

    I think looking back on our illustrious histories, well them looking back, we probably have more to rue than they do that we didn't kick on.

    Where did it go wrong?
    Space to let

  27. #27
    Radge Private Member


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    Ive never been too fussed about the wee team tag. As far as I can remember, it started around the Romanov time. That says it all really.
    They ripped off charities , and signed convicted sex offenders. They once went 36 games without defeat, and only had to do it ONCE more for a real feather in the cap, and they blew it, in an unforgettable way. They are nothing more than diet Huns , every other club knows this, not just us.
    In my 50 years, I cannot recalling them having a team which entertains , no player they have produced has ever made it to " classy player" status.
    They have even turned the heroic action of their players during the war, into some celebrated football victory , in a most unpleasant way.
    And they play in blood stained jobby shirts, and the fans deck themselves out like wise. Maroon, just sums them up.
    They can have their big team tag if that's all they aim for . We are THEE team.
    Never , ever, ever, have I looked at them and thought, I wish my Dad had taken me there instead. In fact, quite the exact opposite .
    They paid Nade 10 grand a week

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    I've never lived in New Zealand.
    I used to live in Australia though.
    I'm reminded of that whenever I see threads like this, either on Hibs sites or Gunts ones.
    But I only think of New Zealand.
    Most outwith Embra likely think of Gregor Fisher's Hamlet ad.
    Or the lads with the black & white faces in that Star Trek episode.
    #Obsession .

  29. #29
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    The delusions of grandeur that they have still amuses me. The Burley season done fans were genuinely saying they should go to England as they're too big for Scottish football! The truth is, they're the smelly, unlikable wannabe bully at school who tries to Lord it over the quieter kids cos they're too scared of the big boys.

    And that stadium is nowhere near finished. Those other 3 stands were supposed to be for 25 years. That's about done now, right? They are deathtraps.

    The one thing they well never ever be big team in is class. Not one shred do they have. Their manager fits them like a glove. They're a horrible little, i mean big club.

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