Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Results 1 to 37 of 37

Thread: Scottish Budget

  1. #1
    Radge-a-Casblanca hibadelic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    8,286
    Post Thanks / Like
    Contribute If you enjoy reading the
    content here, click the below
    image to support our site.
    Click Here To Contribute To Our Site

    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    811 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    368

    Scottish Budget

    Seems like a really good budget for most people - income tax cuts for most and pay rises for public sector workers. Surely a step in the right direction?
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

  2. #2
    Hibernian, Hibernian Ra Ra Radge



    Dub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Mississippi in the middle of a dry spell
    Posts
    27,992
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    5112
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6717 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2149
    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Seems like a really good budget for most people - income tax cuts for most and pay rises for public sector workers. Surely a step in the right direction?
    Not if you believe all the tory MSPs on twitter. They are basically lying through their teeth. One of them posted that "nurses earning 24k a year will be worse off, thanks Nicola~" or words to that effect and at the same time posted a couple of tables which completely refuted his statement.
    They're gone, not here, forgotten
    The maroon brigade now cry
    The city is now Hibernian
    The team that would not die


    [© Daddy O'Hibee]



    If you don’t know what introspection is, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself

  3. #3
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Charitable status for private schools removed? Very good news.

  4. #4
    Player Sponsor



    Wannabehibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    East of WeegieLand
    Posts
    7,295
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1275
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4754 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1367
    I at first thought i was gonna be worse off and thought, "well hey ho if it means losing a tenner or so a month to pay for stuff then so be it". Turns out I'll probably be better off so happy days. Was willing to take the hit though.

  5. #5
    Quite a bit past it radge






    Sir Shrink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Posts
    24,093
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    95 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6459 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    3001
    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabehibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I at first thought i was gonna be worse off and thought, "well hey ho if it means losing a tenner or so a month to pay for stuff then so be it". Turns out I'll probably be better off so happy days. Was willing to take the hit though.
    I'll take the hit.

    I don't particularly want to be worse off, but I've never shirked paying my share of taxes for the common good.

    I get pretty enraged at folk who earn a load more than me, but think they shouldn't pay their share.
    I'd happily tar and feather the $#@!s.

  6. #6
    Radge

    1875's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Murraystoon
    Posts
    36,714
    Post Thanks / Like
    Contribute If you enjoy reading the
    content here, click the below
    image to support our site.
    Click Here To Contribute To Our Site

    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    222 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    5817 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    4108
    I am happy to pay my share if it helps those who need it more.
    nil satis nisi optimum

  7. #7
    On holiday Radge
    broonieboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    1,835
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    334 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    142
    I’ll take the hit. As a public sector worker I shouldn’t complain about my budget being $#@!e then after this complain about paying more tax! I’ll no be out of pocket, my 2% pay rise will cover the tax increase.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Radge Monthly Contributor
    NW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    In a yellow submarine
    Posts
    629
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    321 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    270
    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I am happy to pay my share if it helps those who need it more.
    That’s the Big if - fear is it won’t

  9. #9
    Radge Donator
    Zellviren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Limburg province, the Netherlands
    Posts
    1,635
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    920 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1485
    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That’s the Big if - fear is it won’t
    What's that fear based on, might I ask?

    If it's media-spun tory caterwauling, then no decent person cares. Scotland already does extremely well with its public spending when compared to elsewhere in the UK.

    McKay played a blinder with that budget. No reasonable person thinks otherwise, to the extent that the Conservative and Labour speeches almost got torn up in front of their deliverers.

  10. #10
    Radge Monthly Contributor
    NW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    In a yellow submarine
    Posts
    629
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    321 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    270
    Based on living and working and having kids in local schools. Guess it depends on what each peoples priorities are.
    The fact that I was told one kid needed an urgent operation to then be told it’s a 15 month wait.
    The fact that both locally and nationally I think we piss money against the wall and make far to many mistakes with Big projects. That’s the same of all parties.

  11. #11
    Hibernian, Hibernian Ra Ra Radge



    Dub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Mississippi in the middle of a dry spell
    Posts
    27,992
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    5112
    Mentioned
    174 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6717 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2149
    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Based on living and working and having kids in local schools. Guess it depends on what each peoples priorities are.
    The fact that I was told one kid needed an urgent operation to then be told it’s a 15 month wait.
    The fact that both locally and nationally I think we piss money against the wall and make far to many mistakes with Big projects. That’s the same of all parties.
    That doesn't really explain why you fear the extra money raised won't be spent on essential services. It explains what has gone on before [BTW I've been waiting nearly a year to see a specialist about my arthritis so I know what you mean].
    They're gone, not here, forgotten
    The maroon brigade now cry
    The city is now Hibernian
    The team that would not die


    [© Daddy O'Hibee]



    If you don’t know what introspection is, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself

  12. #12
    Radge Monthly Contributor
    NW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    In a yellow submarine
    Posts
    629
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    321 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    270
    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That doesn't really explain why you fear the extra money raised won't be spent on essential services. It explains what has gone on before [BTW I've been waiting nearly a year to see a specialist about my arthritis so I know what you mean].
    Sorry Dub, I don’t have confidence that
    Money gets spent in the right areas. Also it’s hard to define who is most at Need. For me the essential services have needed more focus and spend for years so that hasn’t changed in my opinion and I struggle to see where a lot of it has gone. It’s no just money it’s focus and priority

  13. #13
    Radge Donator
    Zellviren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Limburg province, the Netherlands
    Posts
    1,635
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    920 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1485
    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The fact that both locally and nationally I think we piss money against the wall and make far to many mistakes with Big projects.
    Which specific examples are you thinking of that are directly the responsibility of the Scottish government? Honestly, our fiscal management is almost unbelievably good given that we're still committed to supporting public services without being in control of our economy.

  14. #14
    Radge Private Member
    Smurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    35,428
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6677 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1850
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    McKay played a blinder with that budget.
    Indeed.

    We have a 53p marginal rate that will apply to someone earning between £44,273 and £46,350.

    South of the border, this would attract 20p tax and 12p NICs, a marginal rate of 32p.

    Blinder indeed Mr SNP spokesman...

  15. #15
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Indeed.

    We have a 53p marginal rate that will apply to someone earning between £44,273 and £46,350.

    South of the border, this would attract 20p tax and 12p NICs, a marginal rate of 32p.

    Blinder indeed Mr SNP spokesman...
    Isn't this because NI contributions usually fall back to 2p south of the border at the higher rate, but it's not within holyroods powers to adjust that for Scottish tax payers?

    It's an argument for NI being devolved too so that this can be realigned I think?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I got that from reading the actual article rather just a tweet from Kenny Farquharson

  16. #16
    Radge Private Member
    Smurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    35,428
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6677 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1850
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Isn't this because NI contributions usually fall back to 2p south of the border at the higher rate, but it's not within holyroods powers to adjust that for Scottish tax payers?

    It's an argument for NI being devolved too so that this can be realigned I think?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And I got that from reading the actual article rather just a tweet from Kenny Farquharson
    I'd suggest the structure is now completely unsustainable. It's a mess.

  17. #17
    Radge-a-Casblanca hibadelic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    8,286
    Post Thanks / Like
    Contribute If you enjoy reading the
    content here, click the below
    image to support our site.
    Click Here To Contribute To Our Site

    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    811 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    368
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'd suggest the structure is now completely unsustainable. It's a mess.
    Care to explain why?
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

  18. #18
    Radge Private Member


    tayside hibee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    as far away fi The Saville Dome as possible
    Posts
    2,952
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    1182 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    435
    IT has never ceased to amaze me , that VAT can go up, millions can be given to the DUP (?) to prop up the government , fuel can go up weekly , the cost of living in general can rise at an alarming rate, billions spent on nuclear weapons that are really only a status symbol, more billions on a ship that leaks water, more millions spent on Wembley stadium and painting a palace , and nobody says hee haw, yet all folk get in a lather about is they might lose a couple of quid to pay for the things we actually need .
    Either I'm an idiot , or the vast majority of people are .

    I know, I know ........

  19. #19
    Radge Private Member
    Smurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    35,428
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6677 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1850
    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Care to explain why?
    It's a dog's breakfast. The current UK structure with the different devolved areas isn't fit for purpose. We need a genuine federal structure.

  20. #20
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Care to explain why?
    Maybe he's a federalist and wants all taxation devolved, allowing the finance minster at Holyrood the freedom to avoid this kind of scenario being applied by Westminster again?

    Or maybe he wants Holyrood wound up and all taxation to be ran from Whitehall and to 'crush the saboteurs'?

  21. #21
    Radge Donator
    Zellviren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Limburg province, the Netherlands
    Posts
    1,635
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    920 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1485
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Indeed.

    We have a 53p marginal rate that will apply to someone earning between £44,273 and £46,350.

    South of the border, this would attract 20p tax and 12p NICs, a marginal rate of 32p.

    Blinder indeed Mr SNP spokesman...
    Scotland's much higher standard of public service needs to be paid for at a time when our real terms block grant is being cut by around 10% (according to the Fraser of Allander institute, NOT the SNP). McKay managed to pull everyone on the average mean income into a world where they pay less tax in Scotland, where those further up the chain are only paying a very small amount more.

    So... Yes, it was a blinder.

    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Care to explain why?
    Ultimately, it's because the Scottish government simply cannot control the Scottish economy with the powers they have. Control over income and council tax, for example, is a double-edged sword that can create some unintended behaviours that end up being punitive on the public purse rather than helpful. Hiking income tax at the top end, for example, would possibly see a lot more people in business commutate their salaries into dividend payments that:

    a) Accrue tax at a lower rate.
    b) Are collected by the treasury (not the Scottish government).

    In short, it's a great soundbite but an extremely risky policy that the Scottish government are a bit too cute to get sucked into.

    The problem, of course, is that to run an economy you need all of the economic levers; and Scotland has next to none of them. We don't control VAT, National Insurance, corporation/capital gains/inheritance tax, air passenger duty, business rates or have the power to create wealth taxes. We also can't borrow or print money, which the UK government can (and does) with nigh impunity, and things like health, police or education spending are all worked out via Barnett that doesn't take into account the fact that Scotland still has an NHS.

    So when @Smurf says "it's an unsustainable mess", he's right. Cuts continue to be passed on to Scotland and, because of divergence in the attitude toward public services (politically, not socially), we have to keep making less and less stretch further and further.

    This is why the SNP put Full Fiscal Autonomy before parliament in 2015, effectively "devo-max", but it was voted down because it wasn't what England wanted. That's the democratic deficit people like me want independence to put an end to.

    But logically, this is also a valid argument for nothing to be devolved to Scotland in terms of finance powers.

    All or nothing, basically.

    And something has to change, because Scotland will continue to be put under ever-increasing financial strain that it can effectively do nothing about, and that the SNP will be blamed for.

    In short, the lives of Scots will be made ever more difficult and purely for the sake of Conservative politics. The Labour party's complicity in this is why the Scottish electorate refuses to forgive them.

  22. #22
    Radge Private Member





    Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    A stool at the bar
    Posts
    11,347
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1562
    Mentioned
    145 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    882
    What I find funny is that every party in opposition in Scotland and their followers have moaned like $#@! that the party in power hasn't used it's tax raising powers.

    Then when one does it's like the apocalypse! All the opposition parties and their followers moaning like $#@!!

    As Santa says. Ho! Ho! Ho!
    Space to let

  23. #23
    Radge Private Member
    Smurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    35,428
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6677 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1850
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Maybe he's a federalist and wants all taxation devolved, allowing the finance minster at Holyrood the freedom to avoid this kind of scenario being applied by Westminster again?

    Or maybe he wants Holyrood wound up and all taxation to be ran from Whitehall and to 'crush the saboteurs'?
    Absolutely the former my friend.

  24. #24
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Absolutely the former my friend.
    That was my guess, and not something I'm totally against- or wasn't totally against until England went totally mental and $#@!ed us all over with brexit.

  25. #25
    Radge Private Member
    Smurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    35,428
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6677 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1850
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That was my guess, and not something I'm totally against- or wasn't totally against until England went totally mental and $#@!ed us all over with brexit.
    IF the UK government is going to go down the road of a deregulated labour market post Brexit and the Tories continue to be where they remarkably still are in the opinion polls then that's me finished with the UK.

    I'm pretty much persuaded of the case to end the UK. Just not yet persuaded of the case for Scotland going Independent.

  26. #26
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    IF the UK government is going to go down the road of a deregulated labour market post Brexit and the Tories continue to be where they remarkably still are in the opinion polls then that's me finished with the UK.

    I'm pretty much persuaded of the case to end the UK. Just not yet persuaded of the case for Scotland going Independent.
    TMs refusal to categorically rule out such a deregulated working environment yesterday pretty much summed it all up. Workers rights will be shredded by this government.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I read a headline yesterday on twitter, something like ' Brits set for post-brexit overtime boom as govt plan to scrap EU working limits'...it wasn't a parody, was either Sun or DM.

  27. #27
    Donator
    HenryLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,957
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    1201 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    218
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    TMs refusal to categorically rule out such a deregulated working environment yesterday pretty much summed it all up. Workers rights will be shredded by this government.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I read a headline yesterday on twitter, something like ' Brits set for post-brexit overtime boom as govt plan to scrap EU working limits'...it wasn't a parody, was either Sun or DM.
    The Sun I think. The neck on them is quite incredible.
    so what do I know

  28. #28
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The Sun I think. The neck on them is quite incredible.
    A fairly bold editorial line to be taken, even by them. I see Theresa is ignoring q's at the liason committee to the extent that even Sun journos are complaining on twitter.

  29. #29
    Bounce Flag Co-Owner


    gun ainm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Hebrides
    Posts
    4,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Contribute If you enjoy reading the
    content here, click the below
    image to support our site.
    Click Here To Contribute To Our Site

    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    559 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    627
    certainly there is a strong strand within the tory party and its supporters that wish to deliver a highly deregulated economy but I'm not sure May is part of that? to be honest I don't know what convictions she really has in so far as she has shown very little in the way of leadership. I wonder if however the stage 1 Brexit agreement (on the Irish border, debt and EU nationals) will not mean that the aspirations of the deregulators are thwarted? I don't think its possible to achieve deregulation and keep to that agreement so ultimately if I was to guess I think May will seek to honour that deal and offer little but platitudes to those on the right who will in turn go full out tonto and declare a far from civil war (be interesting if this is before or after next April) around a betrayal myth. I do think it could go the other way in which case the 'war' is about the break up of the UK and i'll be glad to have Smurf on my side if and when it comes to that!
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

  30. #30
    Donator
    HenryLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,957
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    1201 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    218
    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I do think it could go the other way in which case the 'war' is about the break up of the UK and i'll be glad to have Smurf on my side if and when it comes to that!
    I reckon both countries would end up more right wing after that.
    so what do I know

  31. #31
    Radge Donator
    Zellviren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Limburg province, the Netherlands
    Posts
    1,635
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    920 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1485
    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm pretty much persuaded of the case to end the UK. Just not yet persuaded of the case for Scotland going Independent.
    How would you end the United Kingdom without Scotland being independent?

    I'm not getting at you, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're trying to define. Federalism, which you seem to support, isn't "ending the UK"; it's the final attempt to salvage it. I suppose I just find it odd that you're resigned to wrapping up the UK, but you don't see Scotland as independent.

    I can't get my head around it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    ... declare a far from civil war (be interesting if this is before or after next April) around a betrayal myth.
    For what it's worth, I reckon that both major English parties still fear a UKIP resurgence. The vote to leave effectively killed UKIP, as has been shown in elections since, but any reneging on what Brexit means, either real or imagined, risks their reappearance.

    Not only that, the Labour party have been caught in a horrible spot as a result of it.

    We know Corbyn would never support Brexit, but he knows that it was his traditional "core" vote that plumped for it and he can't risk alienating those voters. It's forced a bizarre series of reality-denying contortions where he'd like to get at the Conservatives for their dishonest and shambolic approach, but there isn't an alternative he can offer that's better and more credible. By pulling the party back to the left he's essentially abandoned the Conservative voters that Tony Blair borrowed for a decade, and the young people that have gotten behind Labour are overwhelmingly fans of the EU.

    If he wants the keys to No10, he can't ditch either set of voters and they're diametrically opposed.

    I feel sorry for Labour party strategists at the moment, I really do.

  32. #32
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How would you end the United Kingdom without Scotland being independent?

    I'm not getting at you, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're trying to define. Federalism, which you seem to support, isn't "ending the UK"; it's the final attempt to salvage it. I suppose I just find it odd that you're resigned to wrapping up the UK, but you don't see Scotland as independent.

    I can't get my head around it.


    For what it's worth, I reckon that both major English parties still fear a UKIP resurgence. The vote to leave effectively killed UKIP, as has been shown in elections since, but any reneging on what Brexit means, either real or imagined, risks their reappearance.

    Not only that, the Labour party have been caught in a horrible spot as a result of it.

    We know Corbyn would never support Brexit, but he knows that it was his traditional "core" vote that plumped for it and he can't risk alienating those voters. It's forced a bizarre series of reality-denying contortions where he'd like to get at the Conservatives for their dishonest and shambolic approach, but there isn't an alternative he can offer that's better and more credible. By pulling the party back to the left he's essentially abandoned the Conservative voters that Tony Blair borrowed for a decade, and the young people that have gotten behind Labour are overwhelmingly fans of the EU.

    If he wants the keys to No10, he can't ditch either set of voters and they're diametrically opposed.

    I feel sorry for Labour party strategists at the moment, I really do.
    Aye? I've always been under the impression that Corbyn is more pro brexit than May. He's old school left wing Labour, along with Skinner,Benn etc. they see the EU as a right wing corporate beast don't they?

  33. #33
    Radge Private Member
    Smurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Suburbia
    Posts
    35,428
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    164 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    6677 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1850
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Aye? I've always been under the impression that Corbyn is more pro brexit than May. He's old school left wing Labour, along with Skinner,Benn etc. they see the EU as a right wing corporate beast don't they?
    I'd be amazed if he never voted for it. His actual voting record in the House of Commons the past 30 years confirms he's been consistently anti Common Market/EEC/EU.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How would you end the United Kingdom without Scotland being independent?

    I'm not getting at you, I'm genuinely curious as to what you're trying to define. Federalism, which you seem to support, isn't "ending the UK"; it's the final attempt to salvage it. I suppose I just find it odd that you're resigned to wrapping up the UK, but you don't see Scotland as independent.

    I can't get my head around it.
    I'd find it very difficult to sell the benefits of the UK with the path it is going down. Therefore my belief in it has diminished considerably. To be pro Indy I think you need to be e the opinion the current set up is detrimental and the only alternative (If that's what it is) offers a better option. And on the latter I'm not convinced.

  34. #34
    Bounce Flag Co-Owner


    gun ainm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Hebrides
    Posts
    4,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Contribute If you enjoy reading the
    content here, click the below
    image to support our site.
    Click Here To Contribute To Our Site

    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    559 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    627
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    For what it's worth, I reckon that both major English parties still fear a UKIP resurgence. The vote to leave effectively killed UKIP, as has been shown in elections since, but any reneging on what Brexit means, either real or imagined, risks their reappearance.

    Not only that, the Labour party have been caught in a horrible spot as a result of it.

    We know Corbyn would never support Brexit, but he knows that it was his traditional "core" vote that plumped for it and he can't risk alienating those voters. It's forced a bizarre series of reality-denying contortions where he'd like to get at the Conservatives for their dishonest and shambolic approach, but there isn't an alternative he can offer that's better and more credible. By pulling the party back to the left he's essentially abandoned the Conservative voters that Tony Blair borrowed for a decade, and the young people that have gotten behind Labour are overwhelmingly fans of the EU.

    If he wants the keys to No10, he can't ditch either set of voters and they're diametrically opposed.

    I feel sorry for Labour party strategists at the moment, I really do.
    I'm not sure UKIP is the threat that worries May most it'll be the Brexiteers in her own party. My guess is that's about conviction rather than opportunism but it'll be interesting to see once a deal is done whether conviction continues to take precedence...could go either way

    the conundrum you sketch out for Corbers is just the same for May - the skill of a leader would be to distil a coherent policy for their party which enough of them can get behind. we're past black or white (remain or leave), the challenge now is what sort of relationship will we have with the EU (which goes far deeper than trade). I think both main leaders have failed really although Jez is wining by default by saying feck all in contrast to the govt's floundering (may & davies esp culpable).
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

  35. #35
    Donator
    HenryLB's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    London
    Posts
    4,957
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    1201 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    218
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Aye? I've always been under the impression that Corbyn is more pro brexit than May. He's old school left wing Labour, along with Skinner,Benn etc. they see the EU as a right wing corporate beast don't they?
    It would be quite difficult to be more against the EU than Corbyn. He voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.
    so what do I know

  36. #36
    Radge Private Member


    southfieldhibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    EH15
    Posts
    10,842
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    84 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    4535 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    2223
    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It would be quite difficult to be more against the EU than Corbyn. He voted against membership in 1975, voted against the Maastricht Treaty in 1993, and voted against the Lisbon Treaty in 2009.
    Aye, so did the others I mention I think? Whereas I'm pretty sure May would have voted in the opposite lobby.

    Which again shows how complicated and not based upon party loyalty the EU referendum was. Same in Scotland, not that it would be admitted, but there would have been SNP MPs/MSPs voting for brexit.

  37. #37
    Radge Donator
    Zellviren's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Limburg province, the Netherlands
    Posts
    1,635
    Post Thanks / Like
    vCash
    1000
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quoted
    920 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1485
    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Aye? I've always been under the impression that Corbyn is more pro brexit than May. He's old school left wing Labour, along with Skinner,Benn etc. they see the EU as a right wing corporate beast don't they?
    This is going to sound like name-dropping, but I chatted to him briefly not long after he took over the Labour leadership... On a train from Berwick to London, if you can believe it. He didn't say an awful lot, obviously, but I asked him about Europe and he largely said he supported the EU but appreciated that there were some things he didn't like. I don't think his voting record on the subject is great (IIRC, he's voted against all the major constitutional changes), but the last vote was in 2009? Since then, he's been presented with a Conservative version of life outside the EU and seems to have concluded that Europe is infinitely preferable.

    He said mostly that during the referendum which, of course, saw him get lampooned. It's not okay to have a nuanced opinion in today's information age of shouting matches, to suggest that you're generally in favour of something but don't like some aspects of what it does. I suppose I sympathise with him because I largely view things the same way he does; I like the concept of the European Union, but that's perhaps because of where I live in the world (the southern Netherlands, wedged between Germany and Belgium). That doesn't make me comfortable with the way the Greeks or Catalans have been treated, and I've reservations about how Germany influences regulations to favour it.

    But is the EU still vastly superior to Conservative-led little England? Of course it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'd find it very difficult to sell the benefits of the UK with the path it is going down. Therefore my belief in it has diminished considerably. To be pro Indy I think you need to be e the opinion the current set up is detrimental and the only alternative (If that's what it is) offers a better option. And on the latter I'm not convinced.
    That's fair, and I figured as much.

    But I suppose I'm asking what you view the end of the union as, if you don't view an independent Scotland. You may be talking in general terms while I'm looking for something specific, but I don't think you can support the end of the union if you don't support an independent Scotland. The two are, to me, inexorably linked.

    As for independence offering a better option, well... I'm convinced of it (as you're aware).

    Interestingly, I wasn't always this way; I was once what I termed a "romantic nationalist", in that I liked the idea but didn't believe it was possible. I've spent most of my working life in England as a member of what used to be the Royal Navy, and it was only when I moved into information analysis that I started to realise just how the entire construct of the UK depends on the fourth estate and political elitism. If people knew even HALF of the $#@! that their elected officials got up to, or unelected in the case of the House of Lords, there would have been a revolution already.

    Perhaps more interestingly, I'm not 100% committed on independence. Were a federal case for the UK to be made compelling enough, then I think that'd dilute the need for independence assuming it was done fairly and to the benefit of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Sadly, the Westminster political elite has no intention of ever doing this, as has been evidenced multiple times already, and that really only leaves one thing.

    Do we want governed by people like McConnell, McLeish, Salmond or Sturgeon (politicians the Scottish electorate can hold to account), or do we want to be governed by people like Blair, Brown, Cameron or May (politicians the Scottish electorate cannot hold to account)?

    I'm happy confessing that anyone choosing the latter absolutely baffles me.

    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm not sure UKIP is the threat that worries May most it'll be the Brexiteers in her own party. My guess is that's about conviction rather than opportunism but it'll be interesting to see once a deal is done whether conviction continues to take precedence...could go either way
    I'm not sure there's any real difference between UKIP and the euro-skeptic wing of the Conservative party. Both are unashamedly right-wing and happily cross the chamber when it suits their current political mood. UKIP simply gave a name to this particular fringe, a fringe that was a difficult bedfellow in a more Euro-centric Tory set up.

    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    the conundrum you sketch out for Corbers is just the same for May - the skill of a leader would be to distil a coherent policy for their party which enough of them can get behind. we're past black or white (remain or leave), the challenge now is what sort of relationship will we have with the EU (which goes far deeper than trade). I think both main leaders have failed really although Jez is wining by default by saying feck all in contrast to the govt's floundering (may & davies esp culpable).
    I think May's problem is that she knows she's been set up by the party.

    The usual heavyweights didn't get involved in the leadership election, knowing full well that the next government (and, thus, Prime Minister) would be blamed for Brexit. So far, of the big three points of negotiation, the EU is winning 3-0. There's no evidence to suggest that scoreline is going to change, because Britain has effectively nothing to negotiate with. We don't produce anything, and the family silver has already largely been sold.

    The worrying part of all this is the sheer blunt-mindedness of Remain-supporting Conservatives (and Labour MPs) who seem willing to get behind a hard Brexit, despite knowing the economic damage it's going to do.

    I'm so glad my daughter has a Dutch citizenship. She at least won't have to suffer for the sins of her father. An independent Scotland is a lifeboat, but there will still be huge challenges to overcome even if it happens.

GoGO Back To Forum

Similar Threads

  1. The Budget Fot Next Season?
    By Smurf in forum General Hibs Chat
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 03-06-16, 20:37
  2. Budget tv's.
    By stickyRicky in forum Frenchman's Cowshed
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 29-10-09, 21:16
  3. Budget
    By BunnahabhainXXV in forum Frenchman's Cowshed
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 15-03-08, 20:13
  4. Budget
    By BunnahabhainXXV in forum Frenchman's Cowshed
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 01-03-08, 20:39
  5. Budget
    By BunnahabhainXXV in forum Frenchman's Cowshed
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 03-04-06, 15:53

User Tag List

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •