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Thread: Would a total revamp of HSL or a membership scheme...

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    Jack

    Thank you for your comments. We are sorry to hear that you are not happy with our previous post, perhaps your response better illustrates the point we were trying to make. You have interpreted our comments in a way which we had not intended. The point we were trying to make, and apologies if we have been clumsy, was that it isn't always easy to become too engaged in Fans Forums. The reasons are :

    1. Fans forums are just that, intended for ordinary fans to exchange views and opinions which sometimes can be controversial. We are an ownership group and don't want to intrude on what should be essentially fans space.

    2. Sometimes words and phrases can be innocently misinterpreted and can cause offence. When this happens, for an individual fan this may not have serious consequences. For a Group representing others this may not be the case and genuine errors can have unintended consequences.

    We were not saying we don't want involved with supporters, of course we do, that's what we are about, we were just saying we have to tread carefully. We hope you understand.
    I'm sure you'd be welcome on any Hibs forum spreading good news stories of what's been achieved by HSL, money given to the club that's helped buy players, shares bought etc..

    For those not keen on the shares thing I understand HSL can facilitate lump sum or regular donations. Is this new?

    Sorry for being a bit nippy in the earlier post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenpower View Post
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    Hi Jim. Why did you allow two current hibs directors to become HSL directors? Why did you HSL insist on loyalty points and result in scheme being cancelled and in turn turn off many fans?
    Greenpower

    Thank you for your questions. As you can see on this thread we are more than happy to answer, where we can, any questions that are raised. I can only give you an honest, truthful answer and cannot do anymore. For those that know me personally I would hope they would confirm that to be the case.

    When we cast our minds back to December 2014 a great deal was going on. I think it is fair to say the Club were at quite a low point. There were some Supporter Groups expressing unhappiness with various things. As stated in an earlier reply myself and a few other ordinary Hibs supporters agreed to join together with two Club Directors to form HSL. Technically speaking the Legal Entity HSL had already been incorporated but so too had Hibs Community Football Club. We agreed to form this combined group because we all felt that we wanted a more collaborative approach to progressing matters with the Club. Repairing relationships with the Club was important and you can't do that by immediately repelling Directors from the Club you claim to love. In the context of what was going on all around us we also felt that many fans would take some comfort by having some proximity to the Club. Clearly we knew that some would take a different view but by resisting the proposal to have 3 Club Directors and only 4 Fan nominated Directors we felt that those concerns would be addressed, particularly with the characters involved. We felt then and still do that for any kind of fan ownership to succeed you want to have warm, cordial and constructive relationships with the very entity you are trying to help. We progressed matters with the HSL framework ( with altered Articles ) as we felt their articles were better than the ones we had for Hibs Community Football Club. We have had almost three years of some fans inferring something sinister here and it just isn't the case. The Glory of HSL is that we will have five elections in 2018 where Directors will be voted by the owners of the organisation, democratically and with full transparency.

    You may not agree with the judgement calls that we made but I can assure you they were made with the best intentions. Despite any mistakes we may have made along the way we hope we have delivered our primary objective of delivery a safe vehicle to allow fans to voluntarily and safely donate to their Club.

    Regarding your second point, again I can only give you the facts. HSL did not insist on Loyalty Points. At the time we were trying hard to encourage supporters to join HSL. We simply asked the Club if they would consider offering some points to incentivise applications and also demonstrate some kind of small goodwill gesture to those who had donated. We did not choose the amount and had no desire to disrupt the scheme. I'm not quite sure that this was why the scheme was ultimately cancelled but of course we recognise that this decision was not popular in some quarters. Looking back had we been allocated 30 points or less it would perhaps have been less controversial. Hope this helps

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Jim

    Hsl is a private limited company run from Easter Road, the cow of the club is the driver behind it. You and Gordon have our fantastic effort in, that is clear. But you can see why it looks to many like a club run group. The appointment of a chairman who is not a Hibs fan and very unpopular with football fans was odd. Remember Kenny invited me to his office amongst others and he admitted he was not a
    Hibs man.

    I agree that the need for more shares once you get to target is low, my main issue is finding a way that will get the fans feeling attached and getting greater numbers in. My initial comments were we all seem very disjointed and perhaps a clean start best.

    Hibs continue to lack transparency and that seems to be consistent
    NW

    As I now understand your first sentence allow me to respond.

    I simply don't understand your rationale for making such a Statement. Rest assured, neither I or any of my fellow Directors are offended by this comment but I suspect the 1600 + ordinary Hibs supporters who have so generously donated to the cause may have a different view. I suspect they will feel that they are very much the drivers behind this. Leeann Dempster may very well be the CEO of Hibernian Football Club but in her capacity as a Director of HSL she has only one vote, just like the rest of us. Her opinions and experience is valued in equal measure with the other six Directors. To suggest anything else, particularly without a single shred of evidence, can I suggest is not helping us to spread the good word about HSL. If you cannot afford to donate to HSL we fully understand your position, if you do not wish to donate to HSL we fully respect your position. But please can we ask you not to discourage others from joining by making assertions that simply have no basis in fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I'm sure you'd be welcome on any Hibs forum spreading good news stories of what's been achieved by HSL, money given to the club that's helped buy players, shares bought etc..

    For those not keen on the shares thing I understand HSL can facilitate lump sum or regular donations. Is this new?

    Sorry for being a bit nippy in the earlier post!
    Jack

    Don't worry, no apology due.

    Yes, we can facilitate any payments at all. We want all ordinary Hibs to feel they can be part of this. Payments can start at just £7.73 per month ( don't tell anyone but we can take even less than that ) to start the journey to Membership. Most of all, donators know that their money is going towards the Club, not to any existing shareholder.

    If you are not already a Member Jack we would love to have you on board.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    NW

    As I now understand your first sentence allow me to respond.

    I simply don't understand your rationale for making such a Statement. Rest assured, neither I or any of my fellow Directors are offended by this comment but I suspect the 1600 + ordinary Hibs supporters who have so generously donated to the cause may have a different view. I suspect they will feel that they are very much the drivers behind this. Leeann Dempster may very well be the CEO of Hibernian Football Club but in her capacity as a Director of HSL she has only one vote, just like the rest of us. Her opinions and experience is valued in equal measure with the other six Directors. To suggest anything else, particularly without a single shred of evidence, can I suggest is not helping us to spread the good word about HSL. If you cannot afford to donate to HSL we fully understand your position, if you do not wish to donate to HSL we fully respect your position. But please can we ask you not to discourage others from joining by making assertions that simply have no basis in fact.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Jack

    Don't worry, no apology due.

    Yes, we can facilitate any payments at all. We want all ordinary Hibs to feel they can be part of this. Payments can start at just £7.73 per month ( don't tell anyone but we can take even less than that ) to start the journey to Membership. Most of all, donators know that their money is going towards the Club, not to any existing shareholder.

    If you are not already a Member Jack we would love to have you on board.
    I was paying 2, one for me and one for my daughter. One mysteriously disappeared but I'm still paying the other.

    Glad to be on board :-)
    Space to let

  5. #55
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    Appreciate all the work hsl board do, some of the criticism and downright abuse they get is bizarre. Probably just the way some hibs fans are the abuse tracey got a few weeks ago was disgusting, a pure board patsy. I also believe she took the wrong choice to vote the way she did, but the abuse was a joke and anyone thinking about running next time needs a shake.

    I've got mates that are hearts ballbags. some of them hate budge and also know their money is going to pay her back. They still happily pay because they think it's best for their club and the scum will be able to punch way above us once debts are paid in a few years because of this.

    It's also weird people complaining it's not a full share and only a hsl share. it's like the difference from being promised a unicorns horn or a phoenixs ball hair, both shares useless pieces of paper if wanting full share so much get one but if you can afford put into the club via hsl.

    Also hope fans don't have to much of a say down the line or managers will be sacked after a defeat and amazing players like Paul hanlon will be sold when still young and shan due to our expert fans

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by stairways_second_coming View Post
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    Appreciate all the work hsl board do, some of the criticism and downright abuse they get is bizarre. Probably just the way some hibs fans are the abuse tracey got a few weeks ago was disgusting, a pure board patsy. I also believe she took the wrong choice to vote the way she did, but the abuse was a joke and anyone thinking about running next time needs a shake.

    I've got mates that are hearts ballbags. some of them hate budge and also know their money is going to pay her back. They still happily pay because they think it's best for their club and the scum will be able to punch way above us once debts are paid in a few years because of this.

    It's also weird people complaining it's not a full share and only a hsl share. it's like the difference from being promised a unicorns horn or a phoenixs ball hair, both shares useless pieces of paper if wanting full share so much get one but if you can afford put into the club via hsl.

    Also hope fans don't have to much of a say down the line or managers will be sacked after a defeat and amazing players like Paul hanlon will be sold when still young and shan due to our expert fans
    I've read this a few times from people. Forgive me as I am no financial expert by any means but how will Hearts be able to punch way above Hibs when their debts are paid ? Hibs are also re-paying debt to Tom Farmer and my understanding is that this is the only debt we now have due to the re-structuring of the loans a few years ago. When that is done we will be in the same position as Hearts will we not ? As I said I am no expert on these matters so maybe someone with more financial know-how than me can come on and explain. Hearts were at death's door a few years ago if would be somewhat galling if they emerge in a few years time in a stronger financial position than Hibs.
    "I can't stress enough how important it is to be in possession of the football - it is better to be the matador rather than the bull"

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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    NW

    As I now understand your first sentence allow me to respond.

    I simply don't understand your rationale for making such a Statement. Rest assured, neither I or any of my fellow Directors are offended by this comment but I suspect the 1600 + ordinary Hibs supporters who have so generously donated to the cause may have a different view. I suspect they will feel that they are very much the drivers behind this. Leeann Dempster may very well be the CEO of Hibernian Football Club but in her capacity as a Director of HSL she has only one vote, just like the rest of us. Her opinions and experience is valued in equal measure with the other six Directors. To suggest anything else, particularly without a single shred of evidence, can I suggest is not helping us to spread the good word about HSL. If you cannot afford to donate to HSL we fully understand your position, if you do not wish to donate to HSL we fully respect your position. But please can we ask you not to discourage others from joining by making assertions that simply have no basis in fact.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Jack

    Don't worry, no apology due.

    Yes, we can facilitate any payments at all. We want all ordinary Hibs to feel they can be part of this. Payments can start at just £7.73 per month ( don't tell anyone but we can take even less than that ) to start the journey to Membership. Most of all, donators know that their money is going towards the Club, not to any existing shareholder.

    If you are not already a Member Jack we would love to have you on board.
    Jim

    The members are the funders and by far the most important people of hsl of that there is no doubt.
    You stated earlier that the non Hibs Board directors were voted by members? What else have members voted on? The loyalty points?
    I am not discouraging anyone to join, I just feel it lacks independence, transparency and drive. On all those points we will disagree, although the drive part is hard to argue given the activity of recent months.
    We have different ideas on what a fans driven approach should be, over recent months hsl have quieter than hearts fans at a derby so being challenged and questioned on an open Hibs forum is reasonable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Greenmachine View Post
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    I've read this a few times from people. Forgive me as I am no financial expert by any means but how will Hearts be able to punch way above Hibs when their debts are paid ? Hibs are also re-paying debt to Tom Farmer and my understanding is that this is the only debt we now have due to the re-structuring of the loans a few years ago. When that is done we will be in the same position as Hearts will we not ? As I said I am no expert on these matters so maybe someone with more financial know-how than me can come on and explain. Hearts were at death's door a few years ago if would be somewhat galling if they emerge in a few years time in a stronger financial position than Hibs.

    Not sure what the charity thieves raise but once we have paid stf back for the debt his boards racked up we will be £500,000 better off each year.

    That’s probably 3 very good players. I think we are about 7 years away.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenmachine View Post
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    I've read this a few times from people. Forgive me as I am no financial expert by any means but how will Hearts be able to punch way above Hibs when their debts are paid ? Hibs are also re-paying debt to Tom Farmer and my understanding is that this is the only debt we now have due to the re-structuring of the loans a few years ago. When that is done we will be in the same position as Hearts will we not ? As I said I am no expert on these matters so maybe someone with more financial know-how than me can come on and explain. Hearts were at death's door a few years ago if would be somewhat galling if they emerge in a few years time in a stronger financial position than Hibs.
    It'll take a while but once they've paid back Budge,the 8k contributors will be putting money in each month directly to the club over and above ST cash.
    They won't stop paying because once you're in the habit of paying something,you don't miss it.

    i think Hibs fans would contribute to a transfer fund or similar but are suspicious while we're still paying STF......
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    Quote Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY View Post
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    It'll take a while but once they've paid back Budge,the 8k contributors will be putting money in each month directly to the club over and above ST cash.
    They won't stop paying because once you're in the habit of paying something,you don't miss it.

    i think Hibs fans would contribute to a transfer fund or similar but are suspicious while we're still paying STF......
    Spot on

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    Quote Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY View Post
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    It'll take a while but once they've paid back Budge,the 8k contributors will be putting money in each month directly to the club over and above ST cash.
    They won't stop paying because once you're in the habit of paying something,you don't miss it.

    i think Hibs fans would contribute to a transfer fund or similar but are suspicious while we're still paying STF......
    I agree.
    nil satis nisi optimum

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Spot on
    'NW what happened with your Buy Hibs initiative?

    have forgotten now what went on, was it just disbanded or was there a fall out of some sort? '

    you missed this question earlier in the thread today, what's the background of your group folding and HSL starting up?
    until the sky turns green

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    'NW what happened with your Buy Hibs initiative?

    have forgotten now what went on, was it just disbanded or was there a fall out of some sort? '

    you missed this question earlier in the thread today, what's the background of your group folding and HSL starting up?
    Apologies. There was no fall out, our thoughts were totally different to the club and it never went further. Our thinking was a fans organisation should be fully fan driven but the club felt differently. We made some mistakes. As it was all new to us and being done due to our love of the club. When the club launched hsl and share issue etc there was no scope for it continue so we parked the idea. It wasn’t perfect but perhaps have some food for thought. The abuse we got was bizarre and accusations of being in it for
    Some benefit. The reality was we love Hibs, wanted improvement so put some time, money and energy to look for a way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Apologies. There was no fall out, our thoughts were totally different to the club and it never went further. Our thinking was a fans organisation should be fully fan driven but the club felt differently. We made some mistakes. As it was all new to us and being done due to our love of the club. When the club launched hsl and share issue etc there was no scope for it continue so we parked the idea. It wasn’t perfect but perhaps have some food for thought. The abuse we got was bizarre and accusations of being in it for
    Some benefit. The reality was we love Hibs, wanted improvement so put some time, money and energy to look for a way.
    think I attended a buyhibs event at the Hibs Club post relegation held one weekday afternoon, came across a bit amateurish if I remember rightly.

    Businessmen ready to back BuyHibs but fans must get on board - Edinburgh Evening News

    if there was no fall out why didn't you get involved with the HSL lot?
    until the sky turns green

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    think I attended a buyhibs event at the Hibs Club post relegation held one weekday afternoon, came across a bit amateurish if I remember rightly.

    Businessmen ready to back BuyHibs but fans must get on board - Edinburgh Evening News

    if there was no fall out why didn't you get involved with the HSL lot?
    Not sure we did anything in the afternoons but my memory is fading. It could well have come across like that, we made mistakes are were all new to that type of thing. We didn’t set out to be amateurish, so sorry for that.

    Personally I don’t think the club should be so involved with a fans group, it blurs lines and can lack accountability. Also the lack of transparency around the financial restructuring didn’t sit easy nor did paying off the debt that stf’s Appointed board rack up. Different views and thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Not sure we did anything in the afternoons but my memory is fading. It could well have come across like that, we made mistakes are were all new to that type of thing. We didn’t set out to be amateurish, so sorry for that.

    Personally I don’t think the club should be so involved with a fans group, it blurs lines and can lack accountability. Also the lack of transparency around the financial restructuring didn’t sit easy nor did paying off the debt that stf’s Appointed board rack up. Different views and thoughts.
    pretty sure you held a buyhibs launch event one weekday afternoon at Sunnyside late 2014 for members of the various supporters branches.

    I pay into HSL but don't think it's perfect, far from it, however thought it was worth noting in the context of your criticisms of the HSL scheme that you had previously led a failed / flawed fan buyout.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    When you met Kenny I understand that he explained to you, as he has done with many others, that he has never pretended to be a lifelong dyed in the wool follower of Hibs, his previous careers did not allow that. As you know however, as he sits not far from you, Kenny and his friends are at Easter Road every week, paying, like the rest of us to watch Hibs and support Hibs. .

    Jim
    interesting also to read earlier in the thread that Kenny MacAskill apparently pays himself into every Hibs home game....did not know that.
    until the sky turns green

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    pretty sure you held a buyhibs launch event one weekday afternoon at Sunnyside late 2014 for members of the various supporters branches.

    I pay into HSL but don't think it's perfect, far from it, however thought it was worth noting in the context of your criticisms of the HSL scheme that you had previously led a failed / flawed fan buyout.

    - - - Updated - - -



    interesting also to read earlier in the thread that Kenny MacAskill apparently pays himself into every Hibs home game....did not know that.

    Tricky. It did fail and it was flawed, we made mistakes and with hindsight I would I would have done things differently. What it told me was if you stick your head above the parapet and especially when it’s about the greatest football team in the world you are gonna get shot at.

    Hibs hate transparency and it’s clear that happens and they want to divide and conquer still in many ways.

    I love that I know that Kenny attends all games, I have had the same seat for years , I saw Kenny on a small number of occasions just after hsl launched, never before. He may well still go but to say I know he does as he sits near me is a total exaggeration.

    I asked earlier, what have the members voted on? What have hsl board voted on? The date for changing directors is fact approaching, what moves are in place and what have the members been told about this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    interesting also to read earlier in the thread that Kenny MacAskill apparently pays himself into every Hibs home game....did not know that.
    That surprised me too, his involvement put me off any investment, although if I had the spare cash, I think I would prefer to buy shares directly.

    Never seen him at a Hibs game personally.

    Go figure, another late to life Hibby, we seem to have a fair few politicos follow our club nowadays.

    I hope to meet the most prominent one at Hamilton today all going well.
    nil satis nisi optimum

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    That surprised me too, his involvement put me off any investment, although if I had the spare cash, I think I would prefer to buy shares directly.

    Never seen him at a Hibs game personally.

    Go figure, another late to life Hibby, we seem to have a fair few politicos follow our club nowadays.

    I hope to meet the most prominent one at Hamilton today all going well.
    Are you suggesting a trip to Hamilton is a bushtucker trial?
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Are you suggesting a trip to Hamilton is a bushtucker trial?
    I meant REAL politicians.
    nil satis nisi optimum

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    It's clear to me that HSL needs to be relaunched and marketed purely as a transfer fund for the manager. If it was marketed in such a way as we need to do this to be able to compete for players with Hearts and Aberdeen in the future then we might get more people getting involved. What I would like to see in general is far more clarity about Hibs future ownership. Tom Farmer is getting on and I have a feeling Rod Petrie may concentrate far more on his SFA duties in the future. IMO Hibs need more outside investment and we should be doing everything possible to find people willing and able to invest in the club. There is a lot to be confident and optimistic about regarding Hibs future, but we really don't want to be lagging behind Hearts and Aberdeen (the two Scottish clubs of similar size and status to ourselves) in future years when it comes to competing for players.
    "I can't stress enough how important it is to be in possession of the football - it is better to be the matador rather than the bull"

    John Hughes

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