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Thread: £300k loss

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    £300k loss

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...hibs-1-4617582

    To be expected but once again showing Hibs fans backing the team 🇳🇬

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    Imagine if our ‘benefactor ‘ backed us instead of taking 500k out

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Imagine if our ‘benefactor ‘ backed us instead of taking 500k out
    I said similar earlier,we’ve made a loss due our owner taking cash 🙈
    There's no other way
    There's no other way
    All that you can do
    Is watch them play

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Imagine if our ‘benefactor ‘ backed us instead of taking 500k out
    Or imagine he was more like Romanov or anyone at Rangers..
    Illegitimi non carborundum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammi View Post
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    Or imagine he was more like Romanov or anyone at Rangers..
    There is an in between,Ross County have a wealthy owner,willing to invest.

    Aberdeen just got an American to invest £750k in them.....

    Some mystery benefactor even pumped £2.5m into the Gunts this year.
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    All he needed to do was write off the debt. I’m sure he has had a few bits of property. Also nothing mentioned why he has changed how he holds his personal shares. Appear to have moved from a trust to personal ownership

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    All he needed to do was write off the debt. I’m sure he has had a few bits of property. Also nothing mentioned why he has changed how he holds his personal shares. Appear to have moved from a trust to personal ownership
    Did that transfer of ownership not happen in the last few weeks, even months, if so it was outwith the period of the accounts.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Imagine if our ‘benefactor ‘ backed us instead of taking 500k out
    He put the 500k in though to take out.

    I keep reading the word investment, but that’s not what hibs fans are actually wanting. They want stf to gift the money to the club. I think that’s unrealistic.

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    When did he put it in?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Did that transfer of ownership not happen in the last few weeks, even months, if so it was outwith the period of the accounts.
    Very recently, odd it’s been glossed over

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    Quote Originally Posted by PILTONSTANY View Post
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    There is an in between,Ross County have a wealthy owner,willing to invest.

    Aberdeen just got an American to invest £750k in them.....

    Some mystery benefactor even pumped £2.5m into the Gunts this year.
    How much do you think Hibs have cost him over the years? He done his bit in a different time. All things considered we should be looking at new ownership but the chances of that are non-existant it seems.
    The 500k he took this year is part of him buying the debt off of the bank so we didn't have to pay interest anymore and allowed us to start the share scheme?
    Still saves us money

    New ownership is what we need, but that's gonna take a serious business plan from someone deemed fit... Criteria unknown
    Illegitimi non carborundum.

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    No surprise.

    In the last year of our 3 year stint in the Championship there was no huns games, and only one cup run. No TV money and very little sponsorship. We also had no parachute payment to fall back on, plus the £500,000 that was due to Tom Farmer. All of this was happening at the same time as Hibs were continuing to operate as a top flight club in the Championship with all the costs that that involves. I don't care what anyone says our relegation was an unmitigated disaster and only our magnificent cup win in May 2016 has helped balance things out with the resulting huge increase in attendances, season ticket sales and general feel-good factor return. If we hadn't won the cup we would be in dire straits financially by now.

    To go down to the Championship at the time we did with the Rangers and Hearts there at the same time was catastrophic.

    Hopefully we will return to profit for the next financial year, but I think the board deserve credit for the way they have continued to back both Alan Stubbs and Neil Lennon despite the financial constraints of three years in the second tier of Scottish football. We had to get promoted last season.
    "I can't stress enough how important it is to be in possession of the football - it is better to be the matador rather than the bull"

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    I'd like to thank the fans for turning out in record numbers for the last 3 seasons, that made sure we only made a small loss and an extra 1 M in the bank. I'd also again like to thank the fans that put a bit extra in buying shares in both manners that have helped us secure fave players and help us have the best transfer window in our history.

    This small loss is nothing compared to what we are gonna make in the coming seasons. As long as the fans keep turning up we are in fine fettle. God bless US!

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

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    How much raised in shares and HSL contributions in last year or two?
    until the sky turns green

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    I'd like to thank the fans for turning out in record numbers for the last 3 seasons, that made sure we only made a small loss and an extra 1 M in the bank. I'd also again like to thank the fans that put a bit extra in buying shares in both manners that have helped us secure fave players and help us have the best transfer window in our history.

    This small loss is nothing compared to what we are gonna make in the coming seasons. As long as the fans keep turning up we are in fine fettle. God bless US!

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk
    Will the fans keeping coming in current numbers? I doubt we will shift the same numbers of ST next season, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised at a 25% fall. Next season was always a big challenge, the novelty of being back in the top league and also no title chasing I think will take its toll.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    How much raised in shares and HSL contributions in last year or two?
    Nowhere near as much as we have paid to STF

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Will the fans keeping coming in current numbers? I doubt we will shift the same numbers of ST next season, in fact I wouldn’t be surprised at a 25% fall. Next season was always a big challenge, the novelty of being back in the top league and also no title chasing I think will take its toll.
    Too early to say - if we finish 2nd/3rd and go on another Scottish Cup run, the interest would remain.
    We wanna be free, we wanna be free to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded, and we wanna have a good time... That's what we're gonna do

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Nowhere near as much as we have paid to STF
    I still don't understand why you're so furious at Hibs repaying a loan.

    As nice as someone pumping money into the club would be, we're not entitled to it, and we're not getting done out of anything
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTJT View Post
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    I still don't understand why you're so furious at Hibs repaying a loan.

    As nice as someone pumping money into the club would be, we're not entitled to it, and we're not getting done out of anything
    I don’t like that fact that it was his ultimate mismanagement as owner and person who appoints the board that got us into the debt, then watched the club lose all connection to the fans and sail down a league. He has taken no responsibility for this, he got plaudits and open top bus ride when we won the cup, it’s all or nothing. I also dislike the total lack of transparency or the deal with east mains.

    I firmly believe as a club we could be so much better and take more advantage of where we are. Why can we not get investment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    I don’t like that fact that it was his ultimate mismanagement as owner and person who appoints the board that got us into the debt, then watched the club lose all connection to the fans and sail down a league. He has taken no responsibility for this, he got plaudits and open top bus ride when we won the cup, it’s all or nothing. I also dislike the total lack of transparency or the deal with east mains.

    I firmly believe as a club we could be so much better and take more advantage of where we are. Why can we not get investment?
    What deal with east mains?
    until the sky turns green

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    What deal with east mains?
    Why was the plan to split it from the club and why do we sit on acres upon acres on valuable land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    When did he put it in?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Very recently, odd it’s been glossed over
    It's not been glossed over, you're just not looking in the right places.

    I found out about it when I wasn't looking but didn't think it was important enough to start a thread or post here.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I found out about it when I wasn't looking but didn't think it was important enough to start a thread or post here.
    You should next time,it’s Hibs. It’s important.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammi View Post
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    How much do you think Hibs have cost him over the years? He done his bit in a different time. All things considered we should be looking at new ownership but the chances of that are non-existant it seems.
    The 500k he took this year is part of him buying the debt off of the bank so we didn't have to pay interest anymore and allowed us to start the share scheme?
    Still saves us money

    New ownership is what we need, but that's gonna take a serious business plan from someone deemed fit... Criteria unknown
    I don’t think we’ve cost him much,he’s basically been guarantor for loans.
    £5m is more than he paid to buy Hibs i’m sure and he’ll still own 49% of the club after that,no a bad deal in his favour by the looks of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    It's not been glossed over, you're just not looking in the right places.

    I found out about it when I wasn't looking but didn't think it was important enough to start a thread or post here.
    Where should I look?

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    I think the club need a new owner to pump some money in to the team, but can't see why anyone would want to. We're stuck in a league we have no chance of winning and only one championship league spot available. Anyone pumping money in to the club will very unlikely see a return on it. Celtic are so far ahead financially that it's a complete waste of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    How much raised in shares and HSL contributions in last year or two?
    £1.1m up until June 2016.

    Get new figures when booklet arrives....
    There's no other way
    There's no other way
    All that you can do
    Is watch them play

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    Fairly sure owning Hibs at the least has been cost neutral for Farmer over the piece. Doesn’t sit well that there’s still a debt and the club (the support) are paying him £500K a year, even at 0%

    Would like to think that once the debt has been paid he’d ‘gift’ the club to the support, but it does seem fanciful.

    I got off a train at queen st about 2 weeks ago and spied him jostling along with others getting on the Edinburgh bound service, like he wanted a window seat. On his own, found it strange somehow.


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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    I think the club need a new owner to pump some money in to the team, but can't see why anyone would want to. We're stuck in a league we have no chance of winning and only one championship league spot available. Anyone pumping money in to the club will very unlikely see a return on it. Celtic are so far ahead financially that it's a complete waste of time.
    This is unfortunately the reality. I think we are doing okay nonetheless.
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Where should I look?
    I honestly can't remember. Might have been the gossip bit on the BBCs Facebook page linking elsewhere.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I honestly can't remember. Might have been the gossip bit on the BBCs Facebook page linking elsewhere.
    About stf changing his share ownership set up??

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Why was the plan to split it from the club and why do we sit on acres upon acres on valuable land.
    acres of spare land at East Mains do you mean?

    maybe sitting on it until we can afford to build a full size covered training pitch?

    don't know anything about splitting it from the club
    until the sky turns green

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    About stf changing his share ownership set up??
    Yup.
    Space to let

  31. #31
    Quite a bit past it radge






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    Quote Originally Posted by tricky View Post
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    acres of spare land at East Mains do you mean?

    maybe sitting on it until we can afford to build a full size covered training pitch?

    don't know anything about splitting it from the club
    When did the land become valuable?

    An internet fact I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Fairly sure owning Hibs at the least has been cost neutral for Farmer over the piece.
    Pretty sure it hasn't, he's dipped into his pocket quite a few times (inc part-funding east mains and the east stand construction iirc). If he sells off his remaining stake for cash down the line, he might break even, but all told I'd reckon he's put close to ten figures into the club over his tenure.

    Doesn’t sit well that there’s still a debt and the club (the support) are paying him £500K a year, even at 0%
    The debt was previously to assorted banks and was predominantly a relic of the itv digital/GJP era as I understood it - when he consolidated/bought the various mortgages I think he forgave a decent chunk of it (I want to say about £3m worth? Someone with a better memory can help here)

    Would like to think that once the debt has been paid he’d ‘gift’ the club to the support, but it does seem fanciful.
    Well, he kind of is - income from the share sales (inc to HSL) are all going to the club rather than him.


    To be clear, I don't think he's been the best custodian imaginable, but he's put money in rather than taken it out, and I'd argue the overall health of the club has been on an upwards trend throughout his ownership. Once you take out the despots, money launderers and oligarchs, there's not that many owners in modern football you can say that for
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple & Green View Post
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    He put the 500k in though to take out.

    I keep reading the word investment, but that’s not what hibs fans are actually wanting. They want stf to gift the money to the club. I think that’s unrealistic.
    I agree. However, IMHO our custodian looking for that repayment the year we are fighting to get promoted was bizarre...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    When did the land become valuable?An internet fact I think.
    Is the land worthless?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I agree. However, IMHO our custodian looking for that repayment the year we are fighting to get promoted was bizarre...
    Spot on. It was his 100 rod Petries that drove the club into the ground

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTJT View Post
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    I still don't understand why you're so furious at Hibs repaying a loan. As nice as someone pumping money into the club would be, we're not entitled to it, and we're not getting done out of anything
    How much money did farmer pay to the banks to pay off the debt?

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    Quite a bit past it radge






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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenpower View Post
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    Is the land worthless?
    Bit silly.
    There was a clear inference.

    How much is it worth then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    Bit silly.There was a clear inference.How much is it worth then?
    What's silly? What inference? I don't know what it's worth. When I receive the accounts there may be a valuation in there.

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    Acres of land, not far from the A1 in an all ready expanding area. Housing shortage and local authorities happy to change land use to meet requirements. I’d be fairly confident the land could pay off the remainder of the payments due to STF and the leave the clubs some.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hibs wanted to move ownership of east mains to Hibernian community foundation, they needed it to be done on commercial terms. They approached , famous and wealthy Hibs fans to donate to community foundation to fund it. It was unsuccessful and the plans for shelved. They used an ex Liberal Democrat fundraiser to aid the drive for income. It was not long after relegation. East mains was bought in more than one deal so not sure if it was all the land or just the training centre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Acres of land, not far from the A1 in an all ready expanding area. Housing shortage and local authorities happy to change land use to meet requirements. I’d be fairly confident the land could pay off the remainder of the payments due to STF and the leave the clubs some.- - - Updated - - -Hibs wanted to move ownership of east mains to Hibernian community foundation, they needed it to be done on commercial terms. They approached , famous and wealthy Hibs fans to donate to community foundation to fund it. It was unsuccessful and the plans for shelved. They used an ex Liberal Democrat fundraiser to aid the drive for income. It was not long after relegation. East mains was bought in more than one deal so not sure if it was all the land or just the training centre.
    Where is this from ? Mad if true? There is land unused at East Mains which Hibs own and other land that holding company owns. If redesignated for housing it would be money spinner

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTJT View Post
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    Pretty sure it hasn't, he's dipped into his pocket quite a few times (inc part-funding east mains and the east stand construction iirc). If he sells off his remaining stake for cash down the line, he might break even, but all told I'd reckon he's put close to ten figures into the club over his tenure.



    The debt was previously to assorted banks and was predominantly a relic of the itv digital/GJP era as I understood it - when he consolidated/bought the various mortgages I think he forgave a decent chunk of it (I want to say about £3m worth? Someone with a better memory can help here)



    Well, he kind of is - income from the share sales (inc to HSL) are all going to the club rather than him.


    To be clear, I don't think he's been the best custodian imaginable, but he's put money in rather than taken it out, and I'd argue the overall health of the club has been on an upwards trend throughout his ownership. Once you take out the despots, money launderers and oligarchs, there's not that many owners in modern football you can say that for
    Fair points, but during that time we've also raised quite alot of cash? Brown,Whittaker,KT,GoC,Murphy,Fletch all about £15M? Then the sake of the land behind the east, another £4M?

    Cost of building both ends and the East is about £11M? Unsure about Mainstand but if it was £8M then effectively sale of assets covered cost of ground? All very basic sums, but you get my drift.

    We created quite alot of debt during GJP times, but we've lived within our means from there on I reckon...


    I actually think over the whole 26/27 years he's been owner have been good. We probably should have won a couple more trophies, we should never have been relegated, but that's football. He's a Leither, active in the community and gives plenty to charity, he could have sold us to people with less good intentions but didn't. Outwith the model of majority fan ownership I think he's about as good as it gets, but I don't think he's invested as much as folk like to think.

    ten figures?!

    that's a billion quid!!

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    Quite a bit past it radge






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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenpower View Post
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    What's silly? What inference? I don't know what it's worth. When I receive the accounts there may be a valuation in there.
    I don't recall there being a value attached to it in particular before, but we'll see in the next day or two.

    The inference was that the land was of significant value.
    It isn't.

    That's the principle reason that Hibs purchased the land there - it was cheap as chips.


    Any probability of the land suddenly being given a change of use and planning permission to build houses there (which would indeed be a money spinner, assuming someone coughed up the infrastructure costs) is - like the location of our traning centre - pretty remote.

    All things are possible though................................ have to remember my lottery ticket this week.


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    East Mains.

    As I understand it it was bought in 2 lots. What I'll call the main bit with the football facilities and lots of spare land. We then bought a second chunck by the entrance when we realised we didn't have exclusive access or some such thing. This was just a wee bit of land.

    With regard to the huge area of unused land this came as part of the first deal and quite specific in that deal was no building. I think at one time we were considering building a school for the academy, housing for players and stuff like that. I'm not sure why it didn't go ahead wether that was because of money or a refusal of local government to allow change of use from farming.

    I think at the moment we rent fields for farming.
    Space to let

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    Quite a bit past it radge






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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    East Mains.

    As I understand it it was bought in 2 lots. What I'll call the main bit with the football facilities and lots of spare land. We then bought a second chunck by the entrance when we realised we didn't have exclusive access or some such thing. This was just a wee bit of land.

    With regard to the huge area of unused land this came as part of the first deal and quite specific in that deal was no building. I think at one time we were considering building a school for the academy, housing for players and stuff like that. I'm not sure why it didn't go ahead wether that was because of money or a refusal of local government to allow change of use from farming.

    I think at the moment we rent fields for farming.

    I can see that morphing into:

    That boy Jack knows for certain that we rent the fields from Farmer.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenpower View Post
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    Where is this from ? Mad if true? There is land unused at East Mains which Hibs own and other land that holding company owns. If redesignated for housing it would be money spinner
    Where is what from?
    Even LD admitted at agm there are acres of land.
    The rest is from meetings and presentations I have been in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    I don't recall there being a value attached to it in particular before, but we'll see in the next day or two.

    The inference was that the land was of significant value.
    It isn't.

    That's the principle reason that Hibs purchased the land there - it was cheap as chips.


    Any probability of the land suddenly being given a change of use and planning permission to build houses there (which would indeed be a money spinner, assuming someone coughed up the infrastructure costs) is - like the location of our traning centre - pretty remote.

    All things are possible though................................ have to remember my lottery ticket this week.

    Why would land in that area not have a significant value? There may need to be a few adjustments made but there is no reason the value isn’t decent

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    Quite a bit past it radge






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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Why would land in that area not have a significant value? There may need to be a few adjustments made but there is no reason the value isn’t decent

    I already answered that.



    It's farmland, sold at a price that reflects its value.
    You seem convinced that somehow it has increased in price - maybe you can explain why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    ten figures?!

    that's a billion quid!!
    Well, it's a rough estimate

    Eight figures was what I meant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    I already answered that.



    It's farmland, sold at a price that reflects its value.
    You seem convinced that somehow it has increased in price - maybe you can explain why.
    I am sure the land was bought with future planning in mind. Geography, house shortages and brown envelopes would increase value. Push for the land to be available for building, get permission and value increased substantially. Stf is a wheeler dealer.

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    Quite a bit past it radge






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    Ah

    So the land hasn’t gained in value at all then.
    Glad we got that cleared up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    Ah

    So the land hasn’t gained in value at all then.
    Glad we got that cleared up.
    Don’t think anyone can say with any degree or certainty. Perhaps it’s better saying either right planning the land should be worth a substantial amount

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    In general terms, I view things similarly to @Greenmachine. I think the club has done well to only post a six-figure loss, given where we were for the last three years.

    And while many of us would like to see an investment into the club (or “gift”) from the owner, Scottish football just isn’t worth investing in. Unless you can find some additional revenue streams, preferably lucrative ones that don’t rely on performance, it’s just not going to happen. The entire Scottish game really only serves Celtic’s Champions League sojourns, and we’re all told to be thankful for it.

    My suspicion is that once Sir Tom has gotten his loans back, he’ll maintain ownership of the club as a guarantor. Why wouldn’t he? Nobody gains and nobody loses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    So the land hasn’t gained in value at all then.
    Glad we got that cleared up.
    I think it’s a general case of:

    “We have some land. Surely that has some value?”

    What that value is, or how Hibs as a club could benefit from it, is the mystery – not what the actual value of it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shrink View Post
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    AhSo the land hasn’t gained in value at all then.Glad we got that cleared up.
    How do you know it's not went up in value in the last ten years. The redevelopment of east mains put up its value . As rod Petrie told me. Also, at some point club will try get land rezoned. As housing developments start to get closer to that part of East Lothian

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