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Thread: Scotland set to make smacking children illegal...

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    Scotland set to make smacking children illegal...

    Looks like this legislation is likely to go through when it comes to Holyrood. SNP now suggesting that they have shifted in stance from not opposing it to a more pro-active stance.

    What are people's thoughts? This is always one that gives mixed responses in my experience?
    Hibs are standing on the brink of history...

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    Can remember the last time I've seen a kid getting skelped. Years and years ago.

    Don't need this law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Can remember the last time I've seen a kid getting skelped. Years and years ago.

    Don't need this law.
    My thoughts too.

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    Without doubt there are inappropriate punishments dished out to kids in Scotland and beyond.

    I hope a clip round the lug is not going to be illegal!
    Space to let

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    I’m firmly in the ‘don’t hit children’ camp. I’ve not problem with there being a law against it as I’ve seen children being hit in public three times that I can think of in the last couple of years and it’s horrible and cowardly. The kids have done feck all to deserve it, in each case it's been an aggressive $#@!wit of a mum or dad. There may be fringe cases where you hit a teenage child in self defence or something but in general, why would you hit any child, especially your own?
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    I’m firmly in the ‘don’t hit children’ camp. I’ve not problem with there being a law against it as I’ve seen children being hit in public three times that I can think of in the last couple of years and it’s horrible and cowardly. The kids have done feck all to deserve it, in each case it's been an aggressive $#@!wit of a mum or dad. There may be fringe cases where you hit a teenage child in self defence or something but in general, why would you hit any child, especially your own?
    Agree with this..

    Me and my brother were clobbered quite a number of times by my dad when we were misbehaving as bairns and even into our teenage years, and he did this because in his words "that was the way he was brought up and it didn't do him any harm".
    I love and respect my dad to this day as he was and still is a sound guy , but I know and i'm sure he knows when he looks back now that he is in his mid 80's, that he shouldn't have done that. It would be nice to think that we have grown up a bit as a society and we have come to realise that it's not right to hit children. There are other ways to punish them and make them see what's wrong and what's right.
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    In general, I'm with Beefster. I think it's an unnecessary piece of legislation that could, potentially, criminalise an otherwise innocuous act. The only real experience I had with it was a girlfriend over a decade ago who had a wee boy of six. She was under all sorts of pressures for reasons I won't go into and, one day, the lad just couldn't behave and ran about the house like a madman.

    She lost the plot, hammered him, and put him in his bed; only to break down in tears an hour later because of how guilty she felt.

    When push comes to shove, I tend to think there are differences (and clear ones) between getting a disciplinary smack on the bum for a harmless shock to attention, and getting put over a knee and leathered. I'm not sure it's a well-understood distinction when people say "you shouldn't smack children".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    In general, I'm with Beefster. I think it's an unnecessary piece of legislation that could, potentially, criminalise an otherwise innocuous act. The only real experience I had with it was a girlfriend over a decade ago who had a wee boy of six. She was under all sorts of pressures for reasons I won't go into and, one day, the lad just couldn't behave and ran about the house like a madman.

    She lost the plot, hammered him, and put him in his bed; only to break down in tears an hour later because of how guilty she felt.

    When push comes to shove, I tend to think there are differences (and clear ones) between getting a disciplinary smack on the bum for a harmless shock to attention, and getting put over a knee and leathered. I'm not sure it's a well-understood distinction when people say "you shouldn't smack children".
    I agree. Weans are like wee animals, they need to know how to behave and the 'carrot and stick' approach works. I have 2 Irish Setters who, left unchecked, go $#@!in mental and sling me a rubber ear when misbehaving. One strap across the arse brings them into line. As soon as they behave again they get rewarded.
    I'm not saying folk should draw a leash over their kids arse but unruly dugs and unruly kids aren't worlds apart, it's the single short sharp shock I am referring to.
    Game's rigged, why bother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    I agree. Weans are like wee animals, they need to know how to behave and the 'carrot and stick' approach works. I have 2 Irish Setters who, left unchecked, go $#@!in mental and sling me a rubber ear when misbehaving. One strap across the arse brings them into line. As soon as they behave again they get rewarded.
    I'm not saying folk should draw a leash over their kids arse but unruly dugs and unruly kids aren't worlds apart, it's the single short sharp shock I am referring to.
    You could make the same argument about anyone whose behavior you want to change. Why is it okay to hit children but not adults?
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    In general, I'm with Beefster. I think it's an unnecessary piece of legislation that could, potentially, criminalise an otherwise innocuous act. The only real experience I had with it was a girlfriend over a decade ago who had a wee boy of six. She was under all sorts of pressures for reasons I won't go into and, one day, the lad just couldn't behave and ran about the house like a madman.

    She lost the plot, hammered him, and put him in his bed; only to break down in tears an hour later because of how guilty she felt.

    When push comes to shove, I tend to think there are differences (and clear ones) between getting a disciplinary smack on the bum for a harmless shock to attention, and getting put over a knee and leathered. I'm not sure it's a well-understood distinction when people say "you shouldn't smack children".
    Lot's of laws are broken by people for extenuating circumstances but you wouldn't not have laws against murder, speeding etc. just because people sometimes do things by accident. I presume the law or at least the spirit of the law takes circumstances such as the one you mention.
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    Lot's of laws are broken by people for extenuating circumstances but you wouldn't not have laws against murder, speeding etc. just because people sometimes do things by accident. I presume the law or at least the spirit of the law takes circumstances such as the one you mention.
    Like the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act that gets you a night in the pokey, a day in court and a criminal record for running on a pitch and gesticulating at a football player? m

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    You could make the same argument about anyone whose behavior you want to change. Why is it okay to hit children but not adults?
    Got me there. Although as the Doc would say 'Adults fall down m'lud'
    Game's rigged, why bother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    Lot's of laws are broken by people for extenuating circumstances but you wouldn't not have laws against murder, speeding etc. just because people sometimes do things by accident. I presume the law or at least the spirit of the law takes circumstances such as the one you mention.
    Personally, I think this is part of the problem.

    What you're doing right now is common but, to me, absolutely ludicrous. You're effectively conflating all laws, which means that a disciplinary smacked-arse when nothing else works on a tearaway is essentially equated with murder. Smoking a spliff in your own home is the same as breaking into someone else's, and raping the occupant. Nobody would make these arguments and, though I'm deliberately relegating it to reductio ad absurdum, it's effectively what you're saying. This doesn't clarify the issue, it hopelessly obfuscates it, and throws common sense out of the window while it's at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabehibee View Post
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    Like the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act that gets you a night in the pokey, a day in court and a criminal record for running on a pitch and gesticulating at a football player? m
    No, it doesn't. Don't buy Scottish media diatribes on the matter - the OBFA is overwhelmingly supported amongst fans and non fans alike, and is in place because the SPFL/SFA won't adopt strict liability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    I agree. Weans are like wee animals, they need to know how to behave and the 'carrot and stick' approach works. I have 2 Irish Setters who, left unchecked, go $#@!in mental and sling me a rubber ear when misbehaving. One strap across the arse brings them into line. As soon as they behave again they get rewarded.
    I'm not saying folk should draw a leash over their kids arse but unruly dugs and unruly kids aren't worlds apart, it's the single short sharp shock I am referring to.
    Weans are like wee animals ?

    Seriously ?? Have a word with yourself.

    In my experience , kids who have the most violent parents tend to be more violent themselves. If you " smack" a child, your basically saying you don't have the words/brains to explain what they done wrong so here's a slap.
    I'm all for the law, some kids need protection from their parents unfortunately .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    No, it doesn't. Don't buy Scottish media diatribes on the matter - the OBFA is overwhelmingly supported amongst fans and non fans alike, and is in place because the SPFL/SFA won't adopt strict liability.
    I'm not sure that's the case...there has been a lot of disquiet about it amongst supporters of many hues. It is perceived as a law that criminalizes football fans. Lots of folks on here said at it's inception that the likes of Kenny McAskill didn't understand the implications of it. Indeed a fair few questioned his football credentials.
    Hibs are standing on the brink of history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Personally, I think this is part of the problem.

    What you're doing right now is common but, to me, absolutely ludicrous. You're effectively conflating all laws, which means that a disciplinary smacked-arse when nothing else works on a tearaway is essentially equated with murder. Smoking a spliff in your own home is the same as breaking into someone else's, and raping the occupant. Nobody would make these arguments and, though I'm deliberately relegating it to reductio ad absurdum, it's effectively what you're saying. This doesn't clarify the issue, it hopelessly obfuscates it, and throws common sense out of the window while it's at it.
    I can sort of see what you're saying but surely it's obvious I wasn't suggesting all crimes are equal? I can't help thinking you're deliberately missing the point.

    You're suggesting that because someone might break the law with fairly understandable reasons, we shouldn't bother with the law. I'm pointing out that you could make the same argument with many laws and it's a weak argument against making that thing illegal, presuming it's worth making illegal.

    Whether it's worth making illegal probably what we should be discussing though and I'd again say that if it's illegal to assault adults, it should definitely be illegal to assault children who are less able to protect themselves.

    To me, the risk that a few good parents will be prosecuted as the result of the sort of incident you mention is worth it if children have better protection against the many nutters around who think that hitting defenseless kids is the answer to discipline problems.
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    I support such a move. Would also like to see the SNP Government skelping Tory cuts rather than pointing a finger of blame towards them all the time (that includes SNP/Labour Councils like Edinburgh......it's not our fault guv, but...).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    No, it doesn't. Don't buy Scottish media diatribes on the matter - the OBFA is overwhelmingly supported amongst fans and non fans alike, and is in place because the SPFL/SFA won't adopt strict liability.
    You're way off the mark with your thoughts on this, as @SKII has already mentioned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKII View Post
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    I'm not sure that's the case...there has been a lot of disquiet about it amongst supporters of many hues. It is perceived as a law that criminalizes football fans. Lots of folks on here said at it's inception that the likes of Kenny McAskill didn't understand the implications of it. Indeed a fair few questioned his football credentials.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabehibee View Post
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    You're way off the mark with your thoughts on this, as @SKII has already mentioned.
    I'm afraid the polls are quite clear on the matter.

    I'm not way off the mark. I'm absolutely right. The public, even the football supporting fraternity, overwhelmingly backs the OBFA.

    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    Whether it's worth making illegal probably what we should be discussing though and I'd again say that if it's illegal to assault adults, it should definitely be illegal to assault children who are less able to protect themselves.
    This is, personally, the route I'd go. Rather than a law that outlaws smacking children, amend existing laws around assault to protect those who are vulnerable; children, the elderly and the disabled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    I'm afraid the polls are quite clear on the matter.I'm not way off the mark. I'm absolutely right. The public, even the football supporting fraternity, overwhelmingly backs the OBFA.This is, personally, the route I'd go. Rather than a law that outlaws smacking children, amend existing laws around assault to protect those who are vulnerable; children, the elderly and the disabled.
    I'm no being funny, but a "wings of Scotland poll"? Come on!!I'm not sure if you're aware but the situation i quoted is not guff spouted by the media, its actual fact as i know the person it happened to. There's quite a few hibbys that have been arrested under this joke of an act.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    I'm afraid the polls are quite clear on the matter.

    I'm not way off the mark. I'm absolutely right. The public, even the football supporting fraternity, overwhelmingly backs the OBFA.
    .
    Other polls saying the exact opposite...recent parliamentary consultation exercises on it delivered This?

    Red Card: Over 70% want to scrap offensive behaviour law in consultation | CommonSpace

    Anyway the thread is veering off topic.
    Hibs are standing on the brink of history...

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    Be interesting to see the statistics of juvenile crime 40 years ago compared to today. Teachers and parents could smack a kid, I know I was smacked a few times. I think parents should reserve the right to smack a child if they see it. I think this PC world has gone mad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SKII View Post
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    Anyway the thread is veering off topic.
    Aye - my apologies, bud.

    I'll open another one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    Be interesting to see the statistics of juvenile crime 40 years ago compared to today. Teachers and parents could smack a kid, I know I was smacked a few times. I think parents should reserve the right to smack a child if they see it. I think this PC world has gone mad.
    It's actually the opposite of what you suggest. Not really surprising that people who are assaulted on a regulaR basis in their formative years are likely to be more aggressive themselves.
    "Son, no one gives a shit about all the things your cell phone does. You didn't invent it, you just bought it. Anybody can do that."

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibadelic View Post
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    You could make the same argument about anyone whose behavior you want to change. Why is it okay to hit children but not adults?
    And that's where my defence on controlled smacking falls down....

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    Glasgow High Court Today....
    INCREDIBLE STORY
    A seven-year old boy was at the centre of a Newtonmearns family courtroom drama yesterday when he challenged a court ruling over who should have custody of him.
    The boy has a history of being beaten by his parents and the judge initially awarded custody to his aunt
    The boy surprised the court when he proclaimed that his aunt beat him more than his parents and he adamantly refused to live with her. When the judge then suggested that he live with his rents, the boy cried and said that they also beat him.
    After considering the remainder of the immediate family the judge took the unprecedented step of allowing the boy to propose who should have custody of him.
    After two adjournments to check legal references and to confer with the child welfare officials, the judge granted temporary custody to Rangers football Club , whom the boy firmly believes are not capable of beating anyone


    Think I might nip over to Gorgie Farm and count some Chickens before they've hatched

  27. #27
    Bounce Flag Co-Owner



    gun ainm's Avatar
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    example of mental letter protesting this law on the basis it is anti-christian

    http://www.hebrides-news.com/wrong-t...ng-271017.html

    pushes me further into the ban camp
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    example of mental letter protesting this law on the basis it is anti-christian

    http://www.hebrides-news.com/wrong-t...ng-271017.html

    pushes me further into the ban camp
    The Reverend. Blunt by name etc. He comes across as a wee free type.
    They're gone, not here, forgotten
    The maroon brigade now cry
    The city is now Hibernian
    The team that would not die


    [© Daddy O'Hibee]



    If you don’t know what introspection is, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    The Reverend. Blunt by name etc. He comes across as a wee free type.
    Indeed, its a frightening perspective - a fundamentalist one really where the Bible is the word of God, and one is free to interpret (without an opportunity to query) to derive an absolute certainty. There are folk saying that they are being asked to choose between the law of God and that of the state and that ultimately they will beat their children no matter what the govt does (as they are compelled to do by the bible).

    I was sufficiently appalled by that notion to investigate what the bible does actually say on the matter and found an interesting book on the subject here. http://whynottrainachild.com/wp-cont...e-Mar-2013.pdf - now its very lengthy but the intro summarises the findings from page 8. In short the biblical scholar who has looked at the original Hebrew texts in inordinate detail concludes that the interpretation of the Rev Blunt et al is deeply flawed, overly simplistic and out of context. At the very least it offers a considered counter to his interpretation. how sad is the idea of the believers wielding the rod of correction on their weans in devotion to their Lord on the basis of a misunderstanding - if He did exist I wonder what punishment might be waiting in the here after?
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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