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View Poll Results: How would you vote on Indy Vs Devo-Max?

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  • I'm Yes, and would stick with full independence.

    13 92.86%
  • I'm Yes, but would prefer Devolution Max.

    0 0%
  • I'm no, and want to vote for Devolution Max.

    1 7.14%
  • I'm no, and am happy with the way things currently are.

    0 0%
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Thread: The question of Devolution Max.

  1. #1
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    Question The question of Devolution Max.

    With conference season now largely concluding, and in particular reference to Angus Robertson’s comments, it’s likely that the SNP are now going to start gearing toward an independence referendum once Brexit details are better known (I know, I know). The opposition parties in Scotland are going to gear up toward stopping it. The Conservatives, we know, are going to oppose it on the grounds that they don’t want anything to change. A largely powerless Scottish parliament suits them. The SNP, of course, are going to support it because they believe that independence is the solution to most of Scotland’s problems.

    But neither entity can get their “team” over the winning line. To do so, they need to garner the Labour vote.

    Labour, as we know, doesn’t support independence and hasn’t supported another referendum up until now; frustratingly, this is despite its previous leader mooting the idea of re-running the European referendum, once Brexit deals are known. The inconsistency isn’t unique, as it’s also the stock position of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, however relevant you find them.

    But the Labour message differs in one key way.

    A federalised Britain, or “Devolution Max”, is what they keep touting as the solution.

    For the purposes of this post, I’m going to define it thus:

    Holyrood is given all powers related to running Scotland, with the exceptions of foreign policy and defence.

    Now, my own suspicion is that Labour purely uses this to split the Yes vote and not that they actually mean it. They voted against almost all devolved powers coming to Holyrood in the Smith Commission, and voted against Full Fiscal Autonomy at Westminster. But if they’re going to tout the “third way”, then they should (in my view) be asked to put their money where their mouth is, and make the case for it.

    The problem with Devolution Max appearing on a ballot paper is relatively simple – it means that independence could win the vote in a straight shoot, and that the union as it is would surely end up in last place. Scotland would have to change dramatically following such a vote, and there’s next to no willingness at Westminster to make this happen. But, in face of Brexit, the vote could be extremely interesting.

    The independence vote might split on account of those who voted for it on the basis of LEAVING the European union. They’d be able to vote for autonomy for Scotland, without having to accept being part of the EU. But those voting for independence outside of that debate would never be swayed by Devolution Max – if you want more powers, independence is the better option.

    Similarly, the hard No vote wouldn’t shift all that much. Things staying as they are suits this group, they’d simply double down on the predictions of economic doom, and arguably make vague suggestions of what powers could be moved in order to cover up the fact that their position is Liam Gallagher’s new album.

    But those in the middle suddenly have a real choice and, what’s most important, is that the Scottish Labour party would HAVE to support it. They’d be boxed in, unable to offer something that they know isn’t on the table in order to dissuade Scots from voting for independence.

    So here’s the poll, just for fun:

    Are you a Yes supporter who’d stick with independence?
    Are you a Yes supporter who’d prefer Devolution Max?
    Are you a No supporter who’d prefer Devolution Max?
    Or are you a No supporter who wants no change at all?

    Answers on a postcard.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    They voted against almost all devolved powers coming to Holyrood in the Smith Commission
    Did they?

    Can't remember if it was The Daily Politics or CH4 News yesterday but they were asking delegates at the SNP conference if they were in favour of the SNP using tax raising powers or not. One particular delegate said she was against as she didn't want to see a different tax rate in Scotland from England. It made me shout at the telly "So why the $#@! are you wanting Independence?!!".

    I agree with her though. I think that different tax rates between Scotland and England is a concern. And just saying that if folk don't want to pay higher taxes and therefore bolt to England is pretty dangerous I think.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Did they?
    Public record suggests that they voted against the devolution of inheritance, capital gains, corporation and wealth taxes, VAT, national insurance, air passenger and excise duties, the aggregates levy and business rates. They would only accept the devolution of income tax, with several caveats. In Westminster, the bill for Full Fiscal Autonomy was voted down by 309 to 60 in mid-June of 2015 and Ian Murray, at the time Labour’s only Scottish MP and Shadow Scottish Secretary, said:

    “It’s bad for the Scottish people, bad for the Scottish economy and it’s bad for the future of Scotland” (quoted from the BBC).

    It’s pretty clear that Labour doesn’t support Devolution Max, despite what they say to the people of Scotland about it.

    As for your point, I happen to be a supporter of independence who doesn’t believe Scotland should adjust or amend its income tax rates. That’s because income tax, ultimately, is only ONE part of running an economy. Because Scotland holds almost none of the other parts, there are no benefits to simply raising a single tax when you can’t meaningfully influence the outcome. If, for example, small business owners decided to pay themselves less in salary, and more in dividends from their business, Scotland gains no more tax and dividend rates are collected by the treasury. It would be fiscally irresponsible.

    So it’s perfectly logical to support independence, but not support changes in an individual tax; despite immediately looking a bit contradictory.

    As for your second point, I think tax rates are only a concern if you simply raise them and do nothing else. People are happy paying tax when they believe the system is fair, and that the service provision matches what they’re putting in.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Public record suggests that they voted against the devolution of inheritance, capital gains, corporation and wealth taxes, VAT, national insurance, air passenger and excise duties, the aggregates levy and business rates.
    And ALL of that was in the Smith Commission?

    I'd go as far to state that it wasn't and you are deliberately posting FAKE BOLLOCKS.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    And ALL of that was in the Smith Commission?

    I'd go as far to state that it wasn't and you are deliberately posting FAKE BOLLOCKS.
    Sigh.

    That’s where you’re going to go?

    You’re going to “Trump” the things you find politically inconvenient?

    The Labour party, prior to the independence referendum, suggested that Devolution Max was going to be the result of a No vote – and it was notoriously put to Alistair Darling by Jackie Bird. It was the fabled third way in much of their communications, and nobody (least of all those supporting independence) will forget Gordon Brown’s infamous 11th hour intervention. Speaking of infamous, let’s not forget the Vow that was plastered to the front of the Daily Record, supposedly signed by Ed Milliband, and endorsed by Scottish Labour as the result of giving the union another shot.

    The Smith commission, when convened, had everything on the table. Devolution Max was what was hinted at, yet nothing even remotely close to it was delivered. During the negotiations, it was the Labour party who were the most obstructive toward anything being devolved, something that they’ve neither publically or privately ever denied, and the vote in parliament for Full Fiscal Autonomy (arguably the building block of Devolution Max) was voted against by every. Single. Labour. Member. In. The. Chamber.

    This is a matter of public record, and is beyond dispute. It’s not “FAKE BOLLOCKS”, it’s fact. That you don’t like it doesn’t suddenly stop that from being true. Gordon Brown was so convinced of the delivery of Devolution Max following the vote… Oh, well, actually he signed a petition demanding it. Just last year, he was back on the stage arguing for the third way once again, foretelling the doom of Scotland should it ever leave the British single market.

    Yet, despite all this, here’s what confuses me:

    This post is about Devolution Max, whether people prefer it to “no change” or “independence”, and why. What I can’t fathom, is why you’re arguing with information that’s freely in the public domain, that no Labour member has ever publically tried to deny, and that the Labour voting record in Hansard proves.

    What point are you trying to make?

    What do you want the conclusion to be?

    Why are you arguing with what we know to be true?

    And, perhaps most importantly:

    Why are you insulting my honesty for pointing it out?

    If you want what’s best for you, your family and your friends, you should want the best government possible. If you believe that an English Westminster party are going to put the needs of Scots first, at the cost of what 533 English constituencies want, then all I ask is that you at least discuss the matter sensibly without resorting to the tried and true methods of America’s most overblown and (barely) sentient Wotsit.

    That cannot be too much to ask.

  6. #6
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    Its a good question

    at the moment I am yes and fully backing Indy but I think I might be tempted by Devo Max if there was a clear vision for it - offered by a heavyweight political party (labour). In terms of principles I think the case for Indy is clear however if Devo Max allowed us to gain much of the benefit with broader support across society I might vote for it for practical reasons - it'd all depend on the details and scope. Scotlab do probably have an opportunity to make big inroads into the SNP vote if they are bold and radical enough and present an optimistic vision for the future, I'm pretty disillusioned with the SNP for a number of reasons but despite that they still appear massively more attractive than Scotlab who have yet to dispense with those people, attitudes and ideas that saw them eviscerated at the polls in 2011. If they can renew on the back of a Corbyn led GB party maybe, but I think such a renewal is years/decades away and then there is the issue of trust - so for that reason I am out!
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    So here’s the poll, just for fun:

    Are you a Yes supporter who’d stick with independence?
    Are you a Yes supporter who’d prefer Devolution Max?
    Are you a No supporter who’d prefer Devolution Max?
    Or are you a No supporter who wants no change at all?

    Answers on a postcard.
    YES then, YES now, YES ALWAYS

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    Its a good question

    at the moment I am yes and fully backing Indy but I think I might be tempted by Devo Max if there was a clear vision for it - offered by a heavyweight political party (labour).
    I couched the question in terms of backing Labour into actually publically supporting what they say they support; but it could easily provide a way back for Scottish Labour, a way back to being a "heavyweight political party". There's no point in using independence as their vision of the future, because that seat is taken. Equally, the reason they've fallen behind the Conservatives is because backing the way things are is a very, very Tory thing to do. That means that the only meaningful position left for Labour is to support proper federalism, but they have a significant issue with trust in Scotland because they make the noise for Devolution Max but vote against it.

    It's no secret that I'm an independence supporter, but that's simply because I think a government Scots vote for and can hold accountable will, 100% of the time, be better than an English government that Scots didn't vote for, and can't hold accountable.

    Everything else is an argument for after independence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    I couched the question in terms of backing Labour into actually publically supporting what they say they support; but it could easily provide a way back for Scottish Labour, a way back to being a "heavyweight political party". There's no point in using independence as their vision of the future, because that seat is taken. Equally, the reason they've fallen behind the Conservatives is because backing the way things are is a very, very Tory thing to do. That means that the only meaningful position left for Labour is to support proper federalism, but they have a significant issue with trust in Scotland because they make the noise for Devolution Max but vote against it.

    It's no secret that I'm an independence supporter, but that's simply because I think a government Scots vote for and can hold accountable will, 100% of the time, be better than an English government that Scots didn't vote for, and can't hold accountable.

    Everything else is an argument for after independence.
    think you're bang on with your analysis of labour's options - they need to be brave on the constitution or they are irrelevant imo. am also in agreement on indy being the best option for reasons of democracy but i do think the country would metaphorically grab devo max with both hands if it was a 3 way vote (and articulated well). the binary choice between the status quo and indy is riskier but does offer more. i'm not sure we'll see a big shift in the polling even with the clusterfeck of a tory brexit looming though....so just maybe i'd be happy with devo max in the medium term...
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    think you're bang on with your analysis of labour's options - they need to be brave on the constitution or they are irrelevant imo. am also in agreement on indy being the best option for reasons of democracy but i do think the country would metaphorically grab devo max with both hands if it was a 3 way vote (and articulated well). the binary choice between the status quo and indy is riskier but does offer more. i'm not sure we'll see a big shift in the polling even with the clusterfeck of a tory brexit looming though....so just maybe i'd be happy with devo max in the medium term...
    Personally, I think Labour just need to be strategically wise about it. Arguing that the constitution is now no longer a matter for debate, when it’s the matter for debate prior to independence (whenever that happens), puts them in an ever-shrinking echo chamber that people are simply walking out of. At least properly getting behind Devolution Max, with a reasonable set of policies that accompany the stance, gets them back at the table with a position that nobody’s taken yet.

    As for polling… Despite all of the doom, gloom, joyous celebration when something goes wrong for Scotland and the downright lies, support for independence hasn’t really shifted. The No campaign never stopped, and in most ways ended up being more voracious after the Brexit vote in order to quell any tide in support for independence that it might herald. The SNP, for their part, totally misrepresented what they thought would be an inevitable clamour; a lot of people voted Yes precisely because they wanted to leave the EU, and believed the propaganda they were fed about it prior to the vote.

    The details of Brexit will not shift the hardcore nutcase anti-independence movement, nor really deter the influence it holds in common media. Entities like David Torrance, Chris Deerin, Stephen Daisley, Kenny Farquharson and the BBC will never shift position, no matter what. They’re inexorably tied to the union, and merely masquerade as neutral in order to obfuscate their message.

    Chief GERS shover, Kevin Hague, still resolutely refuses to accept that he needs to compare Scotland’s numbers in Europe to Scotland’s numbers in the UK, POST-BREXIT. He’s not interested in doing so, because it paints an especially bleak picture. Even posters on this forum demand we take GERS seriously, despite the obvious ways in which it shortchanges the Scottish government and its irrelevance in an independent country. I was in a short Twitter argument yesterday with Neill Lovatt, author of Red White and Blue, who helped commission a report into Scotland’s finances via Scotland in Union, but expressly told the assessors to completely discount any positive fiscal outcomes of independence!

    That’s where we are.

    This isn’t political commentary, it’s information warfare. It’s spamming inboxes, airwaves and paper shops with inane gibberish designed to rubbish self-sovereignty that’s obviously possible, but via mediums that people are supposed to be able to trust. Professor John Robertson points out that propaganda doesn’t work on populations that know they’re being lied to, but does work on populations that trust the sources that produce it; however misplaced that trust may be. The BBC, for example, has an institutional bias toward Scotland, because their accounts reveal that the corps makes more money from Scotland than it spends here. Their tactic during the independence referendum was to claim neutrality, but shove a heavily weighted preference by giving all political parties the same voice. What we got was Conservative, Labour and Liberal voices saying no (75%) and the SNP saying yes (25%).

    It’s ugly, it’s anti-democratic and it’s despicable, but it’s our reality.

    Labour’s problem, in my opinion, is that by saying no to independence, and even a vote on the issue, they’re ending up tied to this approach, which people north of the border generally expect from the Conservatives and, thus, don’t punish them for at the ballot box. Nowadays, however, they DO punish the Labour party, and their socialist credentials are not helped by a prospective leader who simply makes his children millionaires rather than accepting responsibility for not paying the living wage amongst companies he holds stakes in.

    But Scotland is largely a Labour country. I still believe that. I still believe that, as a nation of employees, a strong Labour party would still dominate; they just need to appreciate the information environment they’re currently in, get a proper hold of it, and stop the virtue signalling on social media that attracts attention to their (in too many cases) appalling record. Rhea Wolfson cried about Cybernats recently, when what actually happened was a series of polite corrections about Glasgow City Council. I know, because I was part of the conversation. Yesterday, I pointed out to Smurf on the education thread that the local councils responsible for the numbers HE presented were Labour, but he was blaming the SNP.

    Wow, that turned into a real soapbox. Sorry, bud. >.<

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Yesterday, I pointed out to Smurf on the education thread that the local councils responsible for the numbers HE presented were Labour, but he was blaming the SNP.
    Again, not strictly true.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Again, not strictly true.
    Feel free to correct me on the other thread.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Feel free to correct me on the other thread.
    I did.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I did.
    No, you didn't.

    Here's the post I'm talking about.

  15. #15
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    Yes, every time


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