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Thread: 50 dead in vegas shooting

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    50 dead in vegas shooting

    sounds hellish.

    USA worst ever mass shooting.

    Las Vegas Shooting Death Toll Rises To 50 As Gunman Named As Stephen Paddock | HuffPost UK

    gun law has to play a part?
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    "Lone Wolf" apparently

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    sounds hellish.USA worst ever mass shooting.Las Vegas Shooting Death Toll Rises To 50 As Gunman Named As Stephen Paddock | HuffPost UKgun law has to play a part?
    What a tragically avoidable waste of life.

    American gun laws have played a part in every one of these mass shootings, which seem to be producing record numbers of victims with every passing year.

    It's thoroughly depressing that this won't change their laws either. It seems to be an accepted price for "freedom".
    Last edited by Two Headed Boy; 02-10-17 at 14:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    American gun laws have played a part in every one of these mass shootings, which seem to be producing record numbers of victims with every passing year. It's thoroughly depressing that this won't change their laws either. It seems to be an accepted price for "freedom".
    What gun law played a part in the Vegas shooting ? It's highly likely the weapons used in the Vegas shooting were obtained illegally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    What gun law played a part in the Vegas shooting ? It's highly likely the weapons used in the Vegas shooting were obtained illegally.
    Maybe the 2nd Amendment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabehibee View Post
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    Maybe the 2nd Amendment?
    Seen that mentioned a few times, what’s the 2nd amendment? I’m gettin de javu here, seem tae remember askin this before...I think


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    If Sandy Hook didn’t make American society alter their general mindset to assault rifles, machine guns and massive magazines, nothing will.

    I just saw something on twitter:
    number of Americans killed in all wars from and including the civil war 1.3M

    Number of Americans killed by domestic gun violence since 1970, 1.5M


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    Quote Originally Posted by BurbankHibee View Post
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    What gun law played a part in the Vegas shooting ? It's highly likely the weapons used in the Vegas shooting were obtained illegally.
    Why is it highly likely?Anyway, whatever the case, the fact of the matter is he got them. Whether he obtained them legally or not, the availability of firearms in American society is directly related to lack of control that surrounds them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibbybilly View Post
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    Seen that mentioned a few times, what’s the 2nd amendment? I’m gettin de javu here, seem tae remember askin this before...I think
    The right of citizens to bear arms.

    No, not a bear's arms
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    So why is it when there is a mass shooting in Europe nobody ever blames the guns or weapons? The laws in Europe are far stricter than the US, so please explain that? The fully auto guns he was using were prohibited in 1994, so they no longer sell them in the US. The guns pre 1994 were grandfathered in and need a federal tax stamp to be bought and cost roughly $30,000. Those facts you won't hear from MSM though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    So why is it when there is a mass shooting in Europe nobody ever blames the guns or weapons? The laws in Europe are far stricter than the US, so please explain that? The fully auto guns he was using were prohibited in 1994, so they no longer sell them in the US. The guns pre 1994 were grandfathered in and need a federal tax stamp to be bought and cost roughly $30,000. Those facts you won't hear from MSM though.
    You need to compare apples to apples. No logical comparison between American gun massacres and European ones. There’s a clear, deep chasm between the two.

    There’s been more mass murders carried out by gunmen in America this year than there has been days of the year so far.

    But equally, I realise you’re a gun carrying individual so no real point in discussing it with you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    Why is it highly likely?Anyway, whatever the case, the fact of the matter is he got them. Whether he obtained them legally or not, the availability of firearms in American society is directly related to lack of control that surrounds them.
    There's actually quite a lot of control surrounding guns and ammunition. It varies state to state, city to city. But it's highly likely the gun used in Vegas was obtained illegally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    The right of citizens to bear arms.

    No, not a bear's arms
    Cheers pal, I have asked before , because I remember the answer now. 👍


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    Perhaps it's a nature thing.

    Eventually they'll kill so many of themselves they'll meet an equilibrium where common sense will tip the balance and prevail and the right to bare arms shall be infringed.

    How many 10s of thousands dead people will that take?

    At a push I can see where carrying a low calibre weapon in self defence could be justified.

    Rocking around the country, any country, armed to the teeth with an arsenal more powerful than some actual countries canny be right.

    With the minimum hundreds of those in the target area armed themselves the argument around 'they could have fought back' fails miserably.

    -----------

    Something else struck me this evening.

    The USA leads the fight against terrorism, aye? Europe on the petticoat tails.

    You can arm yourself to the teeth in the USA but generally not in Europe. Yesterday there was another knife/machete attack in France in case no-one noticed!

    So how come terrorism is so prevalent in European countries, where individual types of weapons of mass destruction are not so available, while in the USA where you can Rambo up it doesn't?

    I was led to believe it was a retaliation thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    So why is it when there is a mass shooting in Europe nobody ever blames the guns or weapons? The laws in Europe are far stricter than the US, so please explain that? The fully auto guns he was using were prohibited in 1994, so they no longer sell them in the US. The guns pre 1994 were grandfathered in and need a federal tax stamp to be bought and cost roughly $30,000. Those facts you won't hear from MSM though.
    These shootings are rarer in Europe (21 since the turn of the century to America's 32) and the body counts are usually lower. Also the majority of recent European ones have happened in countries like Serbia, Slovakia, Russia and the Ukraine. These are countries with severe problems with societal violence and not ones I would expect the USA would welcome comparisons to.

    The deflection and denial from across the pond on this issue fries the brain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    So why is it when there is a mass shooting in Europe nobody ever blames the guns or weapons? The laws in Europe are far stricter than the US, so please explain that? The fully auto guns he was using were prohibited in 1994, so they no longer sell them in the US. The guns pre 1994 were grandfathered in and need a federal tax stamp to be bought and cost roughly $30,000. Those facts you won't hear from MSM though.
    There he is, Johnny Rambo.
    Trying to tell me you don't pose in front of the mirror with your "weapon" out Torto.

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    My comparison to Europe was merely to state that making a gun illegal doesn't change anything when a group or individual decides to create mayhem. A person can build an AR15 in a matter of hours from scratch.

    I'm actually for gun control where I think it would work and make sense. The UK doesn't need guns and I'm glad they are illegal. With the number of guns already in the US I don't see any form of gun control working. You can ban high capacity magazines, won't change anything. Criminals will still aquire them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EA2007 View Post
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    There he is, Johnny Rambo.Trying to tell me you don't pose in front of the mirror with your "weapon" out Torto.
    Why the attack on me? I have a different opinion and get slated for it. I don't break laws and think I'm Rambo. Point me to a post where I've acted like "Johnny Rambo"? I've carried a gun for over five years, never once even laid my hand on it while carrying, hope to never.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    My comparison to Europe was merely to state that making a gun illegal doesn't change anything when a group or individual decides to create mayhem. A person can build an AR15 in a matter of hours from scratch.

    I'm actually for gun control where I think it would work and make sense. The UK doesn't need guns and I'm glad they are illegal. With the number of guns already in the US I don't see any form of gun control working. You can ban high capacity magazines, won't change anything. Criminals will still aquire them.
    Criminals would still get there hands on them and generally shoot other criminals, as they do here. That doesn't concern me at all.

    The likes of you or I wouldn't get close to even considering it in a reasonable society.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    So why is it when there is a mass shooting in Europe nobody ever blames the guns or weapons? The laws in Europe are far stricter than the US, so please explain that? The fully auto guns he was using were prohibited in 1994, so they no longer sell them in the US. The guns pre 1994 were grandfathered in and need a federal tax stamp to be bought and cost roughly $30,000. Those facts you won't hear from MSM though.
    I'm struggling to believe any of the above is even remotely true. How could you possibly know what guns he was using?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    Why the attack on me? I have a different opinion and get slated for it. I don't break laws and think I'm Rambo. Point me to a post where I've acted like "Johnny Rambo"? I've carried a gun for over five years, never once even laid my hand on it while carrying, hope to never.
    Apologies Torto, I was still upset at all those innocents being slaughtered by a mad gunman and took it out on the first gunman I came across.

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    300,000,000 Guns are owned by the citizens of the USA and the number grows even more so after events like yesterday, it’s totally out of control however if I lived there I would 100% get a concealed carry permit to protect my family and myself.
    HEARTS ARE NADE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wannabehibee View Post
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    I'm struggling to believe any of the above is even remotely true. How could you possibly know what guns he was using?
    I can tell you it's not a normal rifle by the sounds. It was either a fully automatic rifle or one that had been modified to shoot like a full auto. The rate of fire was too fast. Any rifle you buy in the store is semi automatic. You pull the trigger and it fires one bullet at a time with every pull. Full auto you hit a switch, pull once and it fires continuous until empty. If not that then it could be a regular semi automatic rifle fitted with a bump stock. Basically changes the stock out and uses the shooters momentum to shoot like a fully automatic weapon. I could be wrong, but just from the sounds I'd bet it was either fully automatic or modified.

    If i I honestly thought banning guns would work I'd be 100% behind it. It's too easy for people to make them and get them, legally or illegally. Think about this statistic. The US has more guns than people. That's just a scary amount of guns and your never in a million years getting people to get rid of them all. I honestly don't see a solution that works.

    I know most here think it's crazy to carry a gun, but the fact there's more guns than people make it highly likely if attacked or robbed it will be done with a gun. I take a gun with me wherever it's legal to do so, Vegas being one. Would it have made a difference? No not in that instance. I never ever want to be in a position like that, all it gives me is half a chance to live and save my family.

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    Not trying to come across as insensitive here but why are all the newsfeeds running this wall to wall in Britain? Why is everyone over here getting opinionated about gun crime and laws in America? It's 3000 miles away from us at least and doesn't affect us as a nation.
    Fair enough, report it as a world news item, but folk changing their social media profile pics, lighting candles, praying and all the faux outrage and opinion on a foreign country's problems bewilders me.
    If they get all moist about anything it should be what is happening in Spain because it's virtually on our doorstep and has ramifications for us as it affects our politics.
    Just an observation on my part as I watch it getting forensically examined from every angle on the news and I just think 'So?'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    Not trying to come across as insensitive here but why are all the newsfeeds running this wall to wall in Britain? Why is everyone over here getting opinionated about gun crime and laws in America? It's 3000 miles away from us at least and doesn't affect us as a nation.
    Fair enough, report it as a world news item, but folk changing their social media profile pics, lighting candles, praying and all the faux outrage and opinion on a foreign country's problems bewilders me.
    If they get all moist about anything it should be what is happening in Spain because it's virtually on our doorstep and has ramifications for us as it affects our politics.
    Just an observation on my part as I watch it getting forensically examined from every angle on the news and I just think 'So?'
    Pretty heartless to think 'So'? about 58 innocent folk being butchered at a concert by a madman, whether it's in America,Armenia or wherever. Fact is, we have a historical tie to America that makes news there news here. Plenty folk will have been to Vegas, been to that hotel, have family living or visiting there. I like to visit America, I like American culture,society and sports. I'm interested in what goes on there.

    And as bad as scenes in Catalonia were, I'm not sure it bears comparison with a mass murder, but I guess we all have to weigh up world events by our own compass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    So why is it when there is a mass shooting in Europe nobody ever blames the guns or weapons? The laws in Europe are far stricter than the US, so please explain that? The fully auto guns he was using were prohibited in 1994, so they no longer sell them in the US. The guns pre 1994 were grandfathered in and need a federal tax stamp to be bought and cost roughly $30,000. Those facts you won't hear from MSM though.
    Is it different laws for different states? A quick search and it seems assault rifles are allowed in some states but not others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    I can tell you it's not a normal rifle by the sounds. It was either a fully automatic rifle or one that had been modified to shoot like a full auto. The rate of fire was too fast. Any rifle you buy in the store is semi automatic. You pull the trigger and it fires one bullet at a time with every pull. Full auto you hit a switch, pull once and it fires continuous until empty. If not that then it could be a regular semi automatic rifle fitted with a bump stock. Basically changes the stock out and uses the shooters momentum to shoot like a fully automatic weapon. I could be wrong, but just from the sounds I'd bet it was either fully automatic or modified.
    I heard one of the regular gun nuts on channel 4 news again yesterday. His usual argument that having guns protects you obviously couldn't work in this case so he went back to 1994 and argued IIRC that semi automatics were illegal at the time of Sandy Hook and didn't stop it, ergo somehow the legality of such weapons now has nothing to do with what happened. Most of what I heard was that they were 'probably' legal and modified, so start with the legality first. If you can't but the thing you clearly can't modify it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    If i I honestly thought banning guns would work I'd be 100% behind it. It's too easy for people to make them and get them, legally or illegally. Think about this statistic. The US has more guns than people. That's just a scary amount of guns and your never in a million years getting people to get rid of them all. I honestly don't see a solution that works.
    I have a little sympathy for the argument that things are too far gone to be able to pull back. However, its also a huge dereliction on the part of politicians and society to simply accept that. There's nothing we can do about it so let the carnage commence. As a wise man once said ' we do not use the impossibility of absolute cleanliness as an excuse to roll in a manure heap'.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    I know most here think it's crazy to carry a gun, but the fact there's more guns than people make it highly likely if attacked or robbed it will be done with a gun. I take a gun with me wherever it's legal to do so, Vegas being one. Would it have made a difference? No not in that instance. I never ever want to be in a position like that, all it gives me is half a chance to live and save my family.
    But you do understand that this is a race to the bottom!

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Pretty heartless to think 'So'? about 58 innocent folk being butchered at a concert by a madman, whether it's in America,Armenia or wherever. Fact is, we have a historical tie to America that makes news there news here. Plenty folk will have been to Vegas, been to that hotel, have family living or visiting there. I like to visit America, I like American culture,society and sports. I'm interested in what goes on there.

    And as bad as scenes in Catalonia were, I'm not sure it bears comparison with a mass murder, but I guess we all have to weigh up world events by our own compass.
    I was lookung at it from the perspective of it doesn't affect us though. I was asking why, because it's America, should this country's news feeds be plastered with it when 1. There's thousands dying and getting killed elsewhere in the world that's going unreported and 2. When there's events closer to home that might/does affect us being given less prominence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    I was lookung at it from the perspective of it doesn't affect us though. I was asking why, because it's America, should this country's news feeds be plastered with it when 1. There's thousands dying and getting killed elsewhere in the world that's going unreported and 2. When there's events closer to home that might/does affect us being given less prominence.
    Who's to say it doesn't affect you? Where do you draw the line in world events that does affect you and doesn't? Does that Catalan vote affect you more than the Hurricanes in The Caribbean or The Rohingya massacre? The world is shrinking and events like these can have an indirect affect on you.

    A neighbour goes to America and gets caught up in a shooting or a guy in Falkirk takes inspiration from it and decides to have a go himself.

    We're tied to America for better or for worse, their towns are names after our towns, every 3rd American you meet is 'Scotch', we holiday there, listen to each other music and watch each others TV.

    I don't get you're indifference to 58 Americans being killed tbh. Did you feel the same when Anders Breivik murdered folk in Norway, or is that different because it's geographically closer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Who's to say it doesn't affect you? Where do you draw the line in world events that does affect you and doesn't? Does that Catalan vote affect you more than the Hurricanes in The Caribbean or The Rohingya massacre? The world is shrinking and events like these can have an indirect affect on you.

    A neighbour goes to America and gets caught up in a shooting or a guy in Falkirk takes inspiration from it and decides to have a go himself.

    We're tied to America for better or for worse, their towns are names after our towns, every 3rd American you meet is 'Scotch', we holiday there, listen to each other music and watch each others TV.

    I don't get you're indifference to 58 Americans being killed tbh. Did you feel the same when Anders Breivik murdered folk in Norway, or is that different because it's geographically closer?
    We speak more or less the same language as the Americans and there the similarity ends for me. I watch their tv shows but I have never had the desire to actually go to the USA. I don't know any American who I could say was an acquaintance. I don't dislike them or anything like that, my question is why British media seems to get a boner for everything that happens in that part of the world whilst simultaneously giving little attention to events closer to home?
    To put it in perspective that one guy has probably killed less folk in one go than will be killed all over America in 12 hours but you don't see that plastered all over the news here.
    Also a great many people go to Spain for holidays from here. In a part of their country, where the majority are seeking independence, the paramilitary force have just battered $#@! out somewhere in the region of 1000 citizens. That kind of thing concerns me more because it is likely to have an impact here in Scotland but it's getting as ignored by the British media as they can make it compared to a mass killing in a far off land in circumstances that doesn't ultimately affect us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    We speak more or less the same language as the Americans and there the similarity ends for me. I watch their tv shows but I have never had the desire to actually go to the USA. I don't know any American who I could say was an acquaintance. I don't dislike them or anything like that, my question is why British media seems to get a boner for everything that happens in that part of the world whilst simultaneously giving little attention to events closer to home?
    To put it in perspective that one guy has probably killed less folk in one go than will be killed all over America in 12 hours but you don't see that plastered all over the news here.
    Also a great many people go to Spain for holidays from here. In a part of their country, where the majority are seeking independence, the paramilitary force have just battered $#@! out somewhere in the region of 1000 citizens. That kind of thing concerns me more because it is likely to have an impact here in Scotland but it's getting as ignored by the British media as they can make it compared to a mass killing in a far off land in circumstances that doesn't ultimately affect us.
    Not sure I can explain why I think as a news story it carries quite alot of weight any better than I have already, I guess it's up to each individual to decide if the story is important enough for them. I did see alot of folk complaining that The BBC didn't cover Catalonia well enough, but if you're still using The BBC as a main source of information then that's your fault. SKY news covered it very well, as did Channel 4. Twitter is excellent for finding out about stuff also.

    But again everything seems to eventually come round again to how anything can have a bearing on Scotland/Britain and all that comes with that. All I'd say that if everything orbits around your desire for an indy Scotland, I'd hope any media and government in an indy Scotland would be deeply concerned and report thoroughly events in Vegas as well as events in Catalonia. Internationalism, inclusion and a world wide perspective on events rather only bothered about things that might have a bearing on your own back garden.

    I'm not so sure Catalonian independence would have much of an effect here, at least a positive one if you're aiming towards Scottish independence btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Not sure I can explain why I think as a news story it carries quite alot of weight any better than I have already, I guess it's up to each individual to decide if the story is important enough for them. I did see alot of folk complaining that The BBC didn't cover Catalonia well enough, but if you're still using The BBC as a main source of information then that's your fault. SKY news covered it very well, as did Channel 4. Twitter is excellent for finding out about stuff also.

    But again everything seems to eventually come round again to how anything can have a bearing on Scotland/Britain and all that comes with that. All I'd say that if everything orbits around your desire for an indy Scotland, I'd hope any media and government in an indy Scotland would be deeply concerned and report thoroughly events in Vegas as well as events in Catalonia. Internationalism, inclusion and a world wide perspective on events rather only bothered about things that might have a bearing on your own back garden.

    I'm not so sure Catalonian independence would have much of an effect here, at least a positive one if you're aiming towards Scottish independence btw.
    As regards Catalonia it has more of a bearing here because the UK government will see Spain's brutal putting down of an independence referendum as a green light to do the same here like they did in Glasgow last century.
    But methinks you're missing my point still. It's more to do with why our media goes to the lengths it does when reporting on American issues. It's as foreign a country to us as China which us also thousands of miles away from us and doesn't affect us.
    'Live Long and Prosper........unless you're a Gunt' - said Mr Spock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    As regards Catalonia it has more of a bearing here because the UK government will see Spain's brutal putting down of an independence referendum as a green light to do the same here like they did in Glasgow last century.
    This is total nonsense. Paranoid, unsubstantiated,delusional tripe that has no foundation in truth and does those who seek independence no good.

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    Here’s my take, and it’s pretty $#@!ing hot.

    Guns are bad, m’kay?

    No, seriously.

    This is one of those occasions where I feel generally ill-equipped to form a decent opinion. American culture, and the way groups of Americans view themselves, is very different to Scottish culture – and particularly with regard to firearms. We can quote the second amendment from the late 18th century (relating specifically to a well-regulated militia) all we like, but the Supreme Court has since ruled that Americans can lawfully possess firearms whether they’re in such a militia or not. As a result of this, we can relatively safely assume that the constitutional question has been settled.

    To me, I suppose, there are a couple of aspects.

    The first is that Americans can’t simply buy firearms whenever they like. There are rules, and each state has different ones. I think a lot of people outside America think that you can just bimble into a shop and walk out twenty minutes later, armed to the teeth. This isn’t true. So because there are rules, one part of the argument is about whether or not they should be tightened, before then establishing whether or not shooters are obtaining weapons illegally. It’s subtle, but we’re then talking about two different things.

    The second is whether or not “GUNZ” are really the problem. You can get a firearms licence in the UK, but it’s marked on your medical records so that any treatment you receive that would impair judgement (particularly mental health related problems) would see your licence revoked for however long is appropriate. Does the American healthcare system properly track people who should have their firearms confiscated due to mental illness? I suspect not. Are these shooters, that I’ve only really been tracking since Columbine, in need of treatment?

    Make up your own mind.

    And are media outlets fuelling anger, fear, paranoia and desperation? Can we honestly say that Trump's othering, the rise in hate crime in England since the Brexit vote, or pitiful views like those of Anders Breivik aren't being nurtured by a poisonous information environment? The declaration that "not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims" is as catchy as it absurd; people from these shores would be young indeed to not remember the problems in Northern Ireland, and the aforementioned acts clearly fall into the realm of terrorism.

    Are Americans feeling more under threat than ever before, causing them to clutch their handguns ever more tightly as they retire for the night? I don't know.

    In the most general terms, I’d rather see America be more like Scotland – but that’s me deliberately ignoring the cultural differences I mentioned earlier. I’m not ignorant of the impact on law-abiding enthusiasts, of course, I just accept that some people break the law and ruin it for everyone. Can I go to a football game and have a sociable couple of alcoholic drinks without going over the score? Aye. But I support the alcohol ban at Scottish football grounds, because I know a couple of idiots can ruin it for everyone.

    Sadly, it’s a complicated topic with vested interests on both sides.

    And I’m not sure the safety of the average American is at the top of either camp’s agenda.

    Your mileage may vary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    This is total nonsense. Paranoid, unsubstantiated,delusional tripe that has no foundation in truth and does those who seek independence no good.
    Exactly. FFS for all the faults if and when Scottish folk want Indy it'll happen. And happen democratically and peacefully.

    On Vegas... Piers Morgan can be a smug arrogant prick but on gun control he's spot on. Again this morning on morning telly nailed it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    This is total nonsense. Paranoid, unsubstantiated,delusional tripe that has no foundation in truth and does those who seek independence no good.
    I'm glad you trust the Westminster government. They weren't too keen on the Irish bid for freedom and look how that went.

    That's getting away from the crux of the argument though. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some random guy going on a shooting rampage abroad has absolutely no relevance in Britain and doesn't deserve the wall to wall media coverage and main news item at 6 o'clock while there are more significant things going on that aren't getting the prominence they deserve. We are not American, we are European. That's were our media should be focussing is all I'm saying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Piers Morgan can be a smug arrogant prick but on gun control he's spot on. Again this morning on morning telly nailed it.
    Meh, I don't know. Morgan's TV show in America got cancelled because he made no attempt to understand the cultural differences that separate people on either side of the Atlantic. Gun control was one of the main topics that he essentially railroaded guests with, using a mix of outrage and the prescription of British rules in America.

    Nobody should need reminded about how that would go down in the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Here’s my take, and it’s pretty $#@!ing hot.Guns are bad, m’kay?No, seriously.This is one of those occasions where I feel generally ill-equipped to form a decent opinion. American culture, and the way groups of Americans view themselves, is very different to Scottish culture – and particularly with regard to firearms. We can quote the second amendment from the late 18th century (relating specifically to a well-regulated militia) all we like, but the Supreme Court has since ruled that Americans can lawfully possess firearms whether they’re in such a militia or not. As a result of this, we can relatively safely assume that the constitutional question has been settled.To me, I suppose, there are a couple of aspects.The first is that Americans can’t simply buy firearms whenever they like. There are rules, and each state has different ones. I think a lot of people outside America think that you can just bimble into a shop and walk out twenty minutes later, armed to the teeth. This isn’t true. So because there are rules, one part of the argument is about whether or not they should be tightened, before then establishing whether or not shooters are obtaining weapons illegally. It’s subtle, but we’re then talking about two different things.The second is whether or not “GUNZ” are really the problem. You can get a firearms licence in the UK, but it’s marked on your medical records so that any treatment you receive that would impair judgement (particularly mental health related problems) would see your licence revoked for however long is appropriate. Does the American healthcare system properly track people who should have their firearms confiscated due to mental illness? I suspect not. Are these shooters, that I’ve only really been tracking since Columbine, in need of treatment?Make up your own mind.And are media outlets fuelling anger, fear, paranoia and desperation? Can we honestly say that Trump's othering, the rise in hate crime in England since the Brexit vote, or pitiful views like those of Anders Breivik aren't being nurtured by a poisonous information environment? The declaration that "not all muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are muslims" is as catchy as it absurd; people from these shores would be young indeed to not remember the problems in Northern Ireland, and the aforementioned acts clearly fall into the realm of terrorism.Are Americans feeling more under threat than ever before, causing them to clutch their handguns ever more tightly as they retire for the night? I don't know.In the most general terms, I’d rather see America be more like Scotland – but that’s me deliberately ignoring the cultural differences I mentioned earlier. I’m not ignorant of the impact on law-abiding enthusiasts, of course, I just accept that some people break the law and ruin it for everyone. Can I go to a football game and have a sociable couple of alcoholic drinks without going over the score? Aye. But I support the alcohol ban at Scottish football grounds, because I know a couple of idiots can ruin it for everyone.Sadly, it’s a complicated topic with vested interests on both sides.And I’m not sure the safety of the average American is at the top of either camp’s agenda.Your mileage may vary.
    Re the bit in bold. Funny you think this because I clearly remember from the documentary film "Bowling for Columbine" that Michael Moore went into a bank, opened a bank account and was given a shotgun as an account opening gift.

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    I didn't think Las Vegas should have been a higher priority than Spain in our media, although I can see why it got a high priority. Last Vegas is the world's playground. I'd be amazed if none of the dead are from the UK and there will certainly be some among the 5/600 injured. Our media just hasn't found them yet!

    Spain is much more important in my opinion. Aside from there being 1,000,000+ Brits in Spain at any one time, many who live there, but there's the huge challenge to democracy in what is still a fledgling democracy and it's a near European neighbour.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
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    I heard one of the regular gun nuts on channel 4 news again yesterday. His usual argument that having guns protects you obviously couldn't work in this case so he went back to 1994 and argued IIRC that semi automatics were illegal at the time of Sandy Hook and didn't stop it, ergo somehow the legality of such weapons now has nothing to do with what happened. Most of what I heard was that they were 'probably' legal and modified, so start with the legality first. If you can't but the thing you clearly can't modify it.I have a little sympathy for the argument that things are too far gone to be able to pull back. However, its also a huge dereliction on the part of politicians and society to simply accept that. There's nothing we can do about it so let the carnage commence. As a wise man once said ' we do not use the impossibility of absolute cleanliness as an excuse to roll in a manure heap'. But you do understand that this is a race to the bottom!
    Tell me how you would change things, and what would work. Then ask yourself if what you propose would stop these madmen getting guns. I'd like to hear your solution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    Tell me how you would change things, and what would work. Then ask yourself if what you propose would stop these madmen getting guns. I'd like to hear your solution.
    I don’t think I’ve implied that there is an easy solution given the decades of the ubiquity of guns. However, certain small things could have an effect. Delays in being able to get guns at all until full inquiries are carried out, limitations on the types of guns that can be legally purchased and all of this alongside somebody actually taking on the discourse that the American constitution means what the gun lobby suggest that it means. That like freedom of speech the right to bear arms is not an absolute but a qualified right. And that the types of guns and the people who would have them were a world away when it was written from where you are now. Would this stop madmen getting guns, in some cases yes in others no. but your view appears to suggest you can do nothing and so should do nothing other than keep arming and re-arming until everybody is tooled up at every occasion. And then when this inevitably leads to carnage the crocodile tears emerge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
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    I don’t think I’ve implied that there is an easy solution given the decades of the ubiquity of guns. However, certain small things could have an effect. Delays in being able to get guns at all until full inquiries are carried out, limitations on the types of guns that can be legally purchased and all of this alongside somebody actually taking on the discourse that the American constitution means what the gun lobby suggest that it means. That like freedom of speech the right to bear arms is not an absolute but a qualified right. And that the types of guns and the people who would have them were a world away when it was written from where you are now. Would this stop madmen getting guns, in some cases yes in others no. but your view appears to suggest you can do nothing and so should do nothing other than keep arming and re-arming until everybody is tooled up at every occasion. And then when this inevitably leads to carnage the crocodile tears emerge.
    The problem is that it's already gone too far. There are more guns than people here. Most States carry out background checks before selling a gun, and some States like California have a waiting period before they can be released. Most guns pretty much work the same wether rifle or handgun. You pull the trigger and one bullet fires. Some look more "evil" and scarier than others, but they are more or less the same. The faster you pull the trigger the more bullets that fly.

    Banning any of these won't change anything. Hi capacity magazines have been banned in some states, but with billions already out there banning them would be fruitless. Those can be made very easily.

    I'm for changing the laws if I think it would make a difference. I'd punish anyone caught in illegal possession with a firearm with a straight 5 year jail sentence, second offense 30 years. I also think mental health should be looked in to. People with suicidal tendencies and that suffer from severe depression shouldn't be anywhere near guns. I think changes could be made, but most won't stop someone hell bent on destruction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I didn't think Las Vegas should have been a higher priority than Spain in our media, although I can see why it got a high priority. Last Vegas is the world's playground. I'd be amazed if none of the dead are from the UK and there will certainly be some among the 5/600 injured. Our media just hasn't found them yet!

    Spain is much more important in my opinion. Aside from there being 1,000,000+ Brits in Spain at any one time, many who live there, but there's the huge challenge to democracy in what is still a fledgling democracy and it's a near European neighbour.
    I think that's what I was trying to get at in my bumbling way
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    The problem is that it's already gone too far. There are more guns than people here. Most States carry out background checks before selling a gun, and some States like California have a waiting period before they can be released. Most guns pretty much work the same wether rifle or handgun. You pull the trigger and one bullet fires. Some look more "evil" and scarier than others, but they are more or less the same. The faster you pull the trigger the more bullets that fly.
    So some states have background checks and a couple delay access. The fact that only some and a couple do is ludicrous. And I don’t accept that guns are pretty much all the same. When I was in Texas in the early 90s it was hunting rather than the 2nd amendment that was the dominant pro-gun argument. The guy I was staying with had guns but always said that more than two cartridges was pointless as the animal is gone after one shot. Not in this case but in most if the person has to stop to reload they are less likely to cause mass casualties. Unless of course they have been allowed to get lots of guns. So limit the number people can legally own too!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    Banning any of these won't change anything. Hi capacity magazines have been banned in some states, but with billions already out there banning them would be fruitless. Those can be made very easily.
    High capacity magazines are only banned in some states, that’s ludicrous. And the argument that lots are already out there is crazy. That’s an argument for every person having a gun and every state a nuclear weapon, you can’t un-invent blah blah. Its an argument made by people who either don’t want the law to change or are too lazy to engage in thinking about what can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    I'm for changing the laws if I think it would make a difference. I'd punish anyone caught in illegal possession with a firearm with a straight 5 year jail sentence, second offense 30 years. I also think mental health should be looked in to. People with suicidal tendencies and that suffer from severe depression shouldn't be anywhere near guns. I think changes could be made, but most won't stop someone hell bent on destruction.
    So just punishment rather than any prevention?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagle View Post
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    I'm glad you trust the Westminster government. They weren't too keen on the Irish bid for freedom and look how that went.
    That was a long long time ago. As ridiculous as me saying that if Scotland goes Independent then the Macleod's and MacDonald's will once again be butchering each other...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
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    So some states have background checks and a couple delay access. The fact that only some and a couple do is ludicrous. And I don’t accept that guns are pretty much all the same. When I was in Texas in the early 90s it was hunting rather than the 2nd amendment that was the dominant pro-gun argument. The guy I was staying with had guns but always said that more than two cartridges was pointless as the animal is gone after one shot. Not in this case but in most if the person has to stop to reload they are less likely to cause mass casualties. Unless of course they have been allowed to get lots of guns. So limit the number people can legally own too!


    High capacity magazines are only banned in some states, that’s ludicrous. And the argument that lots are already out there is crazy. That’s an argument for every person having a gun and every state a nuclear weapon, you can’t un-invent blah blah. Its an argument made by people who either don’t want the law to change or are too lazy to engage in thinking about what can be done.


    So just punishment rather than any prevention?

    Your thinking is so flawed. Limiting the number of guns or magazines changes nothing. The person that decides to go on a mad shooting spree has already broken the law. You really think he's not going to be armed with high capacity magazines and ammo. I have multiple guns all legally purchased and high capacity magazines. I enjoy target practice and steel target matches. If the laws were changed who do you think obeys them? Regular law abiding citizens, not the criminals.

    In order to understand why some states ban things and others don't you have to understand how the country works. Every state has different laws. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws, but some of the highest murders and gun crimes. Most of the weapons used are illegally purchased or stolen.

    The argument that there are lots out there isn't crazy. There are over 300 million already out there. High capacity magazines your probably in the billions, rounds of ammo, trillions. Your not getting that off the street anytime soon, and certainly not without a fight. MSM will have you believe that Americans want more gun laws, that's BS. Banning this or that would change nothing when it comes to these situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperTortolano View Post
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    Your thinking is so flawed. Limiting the number of guns or magazines changes nothing. The person that decides to go on a mad shooting spree has already broken the law. You really think he's not going to be armed with high capacity magazines and ammo. I have multiple guns all legally purchased and high capacity magazines. I enjoy target practice and steel target matches. If the laws were changed who do you think obeys them? Regular law abiding citizens, not the criminals.

    In order to understand why some states ban things and others don't you have to understand how the country works. Every state has different laws. Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws, but some of the highest murders and gun crimes. Most of the weapons used are illegally purchased or stolen.

    The argument that there are lots out there isn't crazy. There are over 300 million already out there. High capacity magazines your probably in the billions, rounds of ammo, trillions. Your not getting that off the street anytime soon, and certainly not without a fight. MSM will have you believe that Americans want more gun laws, that's BS. Banning this or that would change nothing when it comes to these situations.
    I don't want to get between you and Gareth on this but that bit in bold is a ridiculous statement. The guy who killed all those folk in LA was a regular law abiding citizen until he wasn't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    That was a long long time ago. As ridiculous as me saying that if Scotland goes Independent then the Macleod's and MacDonald's will once again be butchering each other...
    They're gone, not here, forgotten
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
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    I don’t think I’ve implied that there is an easy solution given the decades of the ubiquity of guns. However, certain small things could have an effect. Delays in being able to get guns at all until full inquiries are carried out, limitations on the types of guns that can be legally purchased and all of this alongside somebody actually taking on the discourse that the American constitution means what the gun lobby suggest that it means. That like freedom of speech the right to bear arms is not an absolute but a qualified right. And that the types of guns and the people who would have them were a world away when it was written from where you are now. Would this stop madmen getting guns, in some cases yes in others no. but your view appears to suggest you can do nothing and so should do nothing other than keep arming and re-arming until everybody is tooled up at every occasion. And then when this inevitably leads to carnage the crocodile tears emerge.
    You're right there is no easy solution. The laws have been tinkered with and we don't really know if any changes made are effective. The number of people killed in this country by guns is staggering but we gotta have them. Mass shootings like Vegas, Sandy Hook, San Bernardino and Miami are very difficult to make effective gun laws to prevent such atrocities happening. But we have to start somewhere and at least put on the appearance that something is being done. The background checks seem rather flimsy to me and are not effective in keeping guns out of the hands of the likes of Paddock, a quiet unassuming individual with no criminal record and no signs of mental illness or bampottery. To me, signs of bampottery are when a person has accumulated a large number of guns. Not even a large number, any more than three is a red flag. Something is is not right there. There will be other signs that Paddock was going off the rails shortly before he did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    I don't want to get between you and Gareth on this but that bit in bold is a ridiculous statement. The guy who killed all those folk in LA was a regular law abiding citizen until he wasn't.- - - Updated - - -
    Everyone is a law abiding citizen until they are not. The question is would more gun laws stop these people. The mass shooting generally aren't done by someone carrying a gun going about life. They are pretty well thought out attacks. This guy put a lot of effort and planning in to this attack.The pictures of young people lying dead and injured was gut wrenching. I can't even wrap my head around how someone could do that.

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    Nevada gun laws.....

    The right to bear arms is enshrined in the first article of Nevada's constitution: "Every citizen has the right to keep and bear arms for security and defense, for lawful hunting and recreational use and for other lawful purposes."

    You don't need a permit to buy a gun, nor are you required to get a license or register a firearm. There's no limit on the number of guns a person can buy at one time.

    Carrying an unconcealed firearm in public is legal.

    It's legal to own assault weapons and large-capacity magazines for ammunition.

    There is no mandated waiting period before buying a gun.

    You can bring a gun to a polling place, to a casino and to a bar.

    You cannot bring a gun to a school or a university campus.

    Law enforcement are required to issue a concealed handgun permit to anyone who meets the basic qualifications. Nevada honors concealed handgun licenses from other states.

    Nevada voters passed a ballot measure last year requiring a background check for firearm transactions between private parties. But the state Attorney General put it on hold, saying it wasn't enforceable.

    Great stuff.

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  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    That was a long long time ago. As ridiculous as me saying that if Scotland goes Independent then the Macleod's and MacDonald's will once again be butchering each other...
    Mock all you want but there are independence campaigners genuinely worried that the UK government would resort to the same tactics. But you being a unionist would probably endorse it to keep us rebellious Scots in our place.

    Long time ago or not they did use military intervention to keep the union and what's to stop them doing it again?
    'Live Long and Prosper........unless you're a Gunt' - said Mr Spock

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