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Thread: Catalonia

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    A Scottish Government with balls will support Catalunya, and force the issue. A silent one will see me finish my membership of the SNP. Now is the time.

    Visca Catalunya!

    Soc Catala!!
    I'll second that!!!

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    A Scottish Government with balls will support Catalunya, and force the issue. A silent one will see me finish my membership of the SNP. Now is the time.

    Visca Catalunya!

    Soc Catala!!
    SNP or the Scottish Government or both?

    I think if they say anything it will be couched in very diplomatic terms. Will of the people must be recognised but not going as far as support for UDI or something like that.
    Space to let

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    SNP or the Scottish Government or both?

    I think if they say anything it will be couched in very diplomatic terms. Will of the people must be recognised but not going as far as support for UDI or something like that.
    The SNP and the Scottish Government are "both".

    The Scottish Government are the SNP, the rest are semantics. The civil servants are irrelevant.
    nil satis nisi optimum

  4. #54
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    I would have liked to have seen the result of an open democratic referendum. Seems idiocy of Madrid has given a huge shot in the arm of the Independence cause. Shame on the EU for their stance.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    A Scottish Government with balls will support Catalunya, and force the issue. A silent one will see me finish my membership of the SNP. Now is the time.

    Visca Catalunya!

    Soc Catala!!
    Quote Originally Posted by brianmc View Post
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    I'll second that!!!
    The Scottish Government have come out and said that they believe Catalonia should be allowed to seek it's own path. Not the same as "recognising them" but it's better than the rest have done. UK have come out and said that they do not recognise Catalan declaration of independence.
    They're gone, not here, forgotten
    The maroon brigade now cry
    The city is now Hibernian
    The team that would not die


    [© Daddy O'Hibee]



    If you don’t know what introspection is, you need to take a long, hard look at yourself

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    The Scottish Government have come out and said that they believe Catalonia should be allowed to seek it's own path. Not the same as "recognising them" but it's better than the rest have done. UK have come out and said that they do not recognise Catalan declaration of independence.
    I get that it's a tricky issue for the SNP, but they've hardly issued an unequivocal statement of support for Catalan statehood. I think they've been careful to the point of cowardice, to be honest.
    so what do I know

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    I get that it's a tricky issue for the SNP, but they've hardly issued an unequivocal statement of support for Catalan statehood. I think they've been careful to the point of cowardice, to be honest.
    My thoughts too but I actually think they've got it right....

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    The Scottish Government have come out and said that they believe Catalonia should be allowed to seek it's own path. Not the same as "recognising them" but it's better than the rest have done. UK have come out and said that they do not recognise Catalan declaration of independence.
    $#@!e bags, membership cancelled.
    nil satis nisi optimum

  9. #59
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    interesting statement from the UN Independent Expert on the promotion of a democratic and equitable international order (copied below and lifted from Bella)

    key points in summary
    1) Spain acting illegally (against international treaty on human rights protection)
    2) principle of territorial integrity cannot be used as a barrier to self determination (that's a misuse/misinterpretation)

    follow the link for further detail ^^

    Alfred de Zayas - GENEVA (25 October 2017)

    “I deplore the decision of the Spanish Government to suspend Catalan autonomy. This action constitutes retrogression in human rights protection, incompatible with Articles 1, 19, 25 and 27 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). Pursuant to Articles 10(2) and 96 of the Spanish Constitution, international treaties constitute the law of the land and, therefore, Spanish law must be interpreted in conformity with international treaties.

    “Denying a people the right to express themselves on the issue of self-determination, denying the legality of a referendum, using force to prevent the holding of a referendum, and cancelling the limited autonomy of a people by way of punishment constitutes a violation of Article 1 of the ICCPR and of the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. Alternatively, addressing the aspiration of peoples to self-determination in a timely fashion is an important conflict prevention measure, as is evidenced by the countless wars that have occurred since 1945 that found their origin in denial of self-determination. Dialogue and political negotiation should be encouraged to prevent violence.

    “The Spanish Government appears to invoke the principle of territorial integrity to justify forceful attempts to silence political dissent and aspirations of self-determination. While the principle of territorial integrity is important, as understood in many United Nations Resolutions, including GA Resolutions 2625 and 3314, it is intended to be applied externally, to prohibit foreign threats or incursions into the territorial integrity of sovereign States. This principle cannot be invoked to quench the right of all people, guaranteed under Article 1 of the International Covenants on Human Rights, to express their desire to control their futures. The right of self-determination is a right of peoples and not a prerogative of States to grant or deny. In case of a conflict between the principle of territorial integrity and the human right to self-determination, it is the latter that prevails.”

    “Of course, there are many peoples worldwide who aspire to self-determination, whether internal in the form of autonomy or external in the form of independence. And while the realization of self-determination is not automatic or self-executing, it is a fundamental human right that the international community should help implement.

    “The international law of self-determination has also progressed far beyond mere decolonization. Applying the 15 criteria contained in my 2014 report (paras 63-77), it is evident that no state can use the principle of territorial integrity to deny the right of self-determination and that arguments about the legality of actions taken by Catalonia’s elected parliament are immaterial. Such arguments do not nullify the ius cogens character of self-determination.

    “The only democratic solution to the current impasse is to suspend repressive measures and to organize a referendum so as to determine the true wishes of the population concerned. Such a referendum should be monitored by the EU, OSCE and private observers including the Carter Center.”
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

  10. #60
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    The Spanish government clearly need, desperately need, anti independence parties to win the Catalonia elections, because if they don't then a new declaration of independence seems inevitable. Even from the point of view of a centralised and conservative state they really have ballsed this up spectacularly.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gareth View Post
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    The Spanish government clearly need, desperately need, anti independence parties to win the Catalonia elections, because if they don't then a new declaration of independence seems inevitable. Even from the point of view of a centralised and conservative state they really have ballsed this up spectacularly.
    Doesn't it depend on whether the Catalan political parties decide to stand? They see it as a coup so refuse to take part, Pro Spain parties romp it. And from what I've read, it's not so clear cut that the majority of Catalunya wants independence?

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Doesn't it depend on whether the Catalan political parties decide to stand? They see it as a coup so refuse to take part, Pro Spain parties romp it. And from what I've read, it's not so clear cut that the majority of Catalunya wants independence?
    Last I read was 48 Si, 42 no, 10 no se!
    nil satis nisi optimum

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    Last I read was 48 Si, 42 no, 10 no se!
    That’s same as I saw. Southfield is correct re the election but the murmurings I’ve seen seem to suggest pro independence parties plan to stand.

  14. #64
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    Catalunyan Lions lead by Donkeys.

    http://www.socialist.net/catalan-rep...ut-a-fight.htm

    BIG G


    Everyone's words of support are helping me thru this. I appreciate every comment, prayer and positive thought.

    Guys and girls I can't emphasise how much your words are encouraging and helping me. This battle has barely started but I know you'll be by my side every step of the way - it's giving me great strength - Shaun 16/03/2016

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
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    Catalunyan Lions lead by Donkeys.

    http://www.socialist.net/catalan-rep...ut-a-fight.htm

    BIG G
    A decent enough story, however no mention of the PSOE (the Spanish Socialist Party) and being complicit in working with the right wing PP and Ciudadanos against the democratic right of people to voice an opinion, booting $#@! out of people as they went about it too.

    The line 'bourgeois and petty bourgeois politicians' sounds like some a George Orwell book.

    Another one of Jorge's tales here...

    Catalan government members jailing re-ignites mass movement
    nil satis nisi optimum

  16. #66
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    Catalonia becoming independent or not has become a side show (for now). The real issue is a government within the EU behaving like fascists. Arresting and locking up democratically elected politicians. Battering folk trying to vote. And all other governments in the EU say $#@! all but support Madrid. It's shameful. Why would anyone want to now be in the EU? I hope that the majority get their wishes in Catalonia whatever that is. Thank $#@! the UK is leaving the EU. And all of us in Scotland whether No voters or Yes voters in 2014 have much to ponder....

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    A decent enough story, however no mention of the PSOE (the Spanish Socialist Party) and being complicit in working with the right wing PP and Ciudadanos against the democratic right of people to voice an opinion, booting $#@! out of people as they went about it too.

    The line 'bourgeois and petty bourgeois politicians' sounds like some a George Orwell book. If that book was 'Homage to Catalonia' that is a compliment

    Another one of Jorge's tales here...

    Catalan government members jailing re-ignites mass movement
    There were several references to PSOE's disgraceful position..........

    At the beginning of last week, everything indicated that Puigdemont would have no other option but to declare independence. The Spanish government had announced a series of measures against Catalan self-rule under article 155 of the Constitution and was going to get them approved in the Spanish Senate by 27th October, with full support from Cs [Ciudadanos] and the PSOE [Socialist Party]

    Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands (300,000 according to the local police) marched in a wholly reactionary demonstration in Barcelona in defence of Spanish unity. The march was called by SCC (a shady body whose founders have links with the far right, but which has since tried to clean up its image) and had the full backing of the PP, Ciudadanos as well as the Catalan branch of the Socialist Party.




    Finally, on Friday 27th October, the Catalan Parliament declared independence with 70 votes in favour, two abstentions and 10 votes against, after the PP, Cs and PSOE abandoned the session in protest.


    Just as important is the defacto role in there being a right wing Government in power in Spain just now. PSOE once a mass working class party is Socialist in name only and degenerating and becoming less significant as PASOK have done in Greece.

    https://www.socialist.net/spain-soci...government.htm


    http://www.socialist.net/municipal-a...s-the-dust.htm

    BIG G


    Everyone's words of support are helping me thru this. I appreciate every comment, prayer and positive thought.

    Guys and girls I can't emphasise how much your words are encouraging and helping me. This battle has barely started but I know you'll be by my side every step of the way - it's giving me great strength - Shaun 16/03/2016

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
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    There were several references to PSOE's disgraceful position..........

    At the beginning of last week, everything indicated that Puigdemont would have no other option but to declare independence. The Spanish government had announced a series of measures against Catalan self-rule under article 155 of the Constitution and was going to get them approved in the Spanish Senate by 27th October, with full support from Cs [Ciudadanos] and the PSOE [Socialist Party]

    Meanwhile, hundreds of thousands (300,000 according to the local police) marched in a wholly reactionary demonstration in Barcelona in defence of Spanish unity. The march was called by SCC (a shady body whose founders have links with the far right, but which has since tried to clean up its image) and had the full backing of the PP, Ciudadanos as well as the Catalan branch of the Socialist Party.




    Finally, on Friday 27th October, the Catalan Parliament declared independence with 70 votes in favour, two abstentions and 10 votes against, after the PP, Cs and PSOE abandoned the session in protest.


    Just as important is the defacto role in there being a right wing Government in power in Spain just now. PSOE once a mass working class party is Socialist in name only and degenerating and becoming less significant as PASOK have done in Greece.

    https://www.socialist.net/spain-soci...government.htm


    http://www.socialist.net/municipal-a...s-the-dust.htm

    BIG G
    They are mentions of PSOE, not condemnation of them.
    nil satis nisi optimum

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    They are mentions of PSOE, not condemnation of them.
    Just mentions with no context.I think not. The Spanish and indeed Catalunyan Marxist Comrades of the IMT have no illusions in the Catalan leadership, the pernicious role of Social Democracy nor the Leadership of Polemos for that matter.

    BIG G


    Everyone's words of support are helping me thru this. I appreciate every comment, prayer and positive thought.

    Guys and girls I can't emphasise how much your words are encouraging and helping me. This battle has barely started but I know you'll be by my side every step of the way - it's giving me great strength - Shaun 16/03/2016

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
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    Just mentions with no context.I think not. The Spanish and indeed Catalunyan Marxist Comrades of the IMT have no illusions in the Catalan leadership, the pernicious role of Social Democracy nor the Leadership of Podemos for that matter.

    BIG G
    But don't say so in the article, which is poor.

    Feeling better comrade?
    nil satis nisi optimum

  21. #71
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    The Catalan Revolution and the Tasks of the Left

    Written by

    Lucha de Clases and Jorge Martin 10 Nov 2017

    http://www.socialist.net/the-catalan...f-the-left.htm

    BIG G


    Everyone's words of support are helping me thru this. I appreciate every comment, prayer and positive thought.

    Guys and girls I can't emphasise how much your words are encouraging and helping me. This battle has barely started but I know you'll be by my side every step of the way - it's giving me great strength - Shaun 16/03/2016

  22. #72
    Radge

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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
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    The Catalan Revolution and the Tasks of the Left

    Written by

    Lucha de Clases and Jorge Martin 10 Nov 2017

    http://www.socialist.net/the-catalan...f-the-left.htm

    BIG G
    Will read Lucha de Clases (Class Struggle) story tonight, thanks G.
    nil satis nisi optimum

  23. #73
    Radge

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    It was a good, well thought our summary right up until I lost the will to live when the writer suggests the poor left blame the slightly better off left (Un pa o dos senyor?), all of whom probably support Catalan independence anyway. It then crumbled into a pile of acronyms and class war pish. They wonder why the 'good guys' lost the Spanish Civil War?
    nil satis nisi optimum

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1875 View Post
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    It was a good, well thought our summary right up until I lost the will to live when the writer suggests the poor left blame the slightly better off left (Un pa o dos senyor?), all of whom probably support Catalan independence anyway. It then crumbled into a pile of acronyms and class war pish. They wonder why the 'good guys' lost the Spanish Civil War?
    Class war pish. I can only conclude that your knowledge of the 36- 39 events are pretty much $#@! all or at the very best best totally misinformed and bereft of class analysis.

    For a class analysis read Revolution and Counter Revolution in Spain by American Socialist Felix Morrow in 1938.

    Why the Fascists Revolted
    2 The Bourgeois ‘Allies’ in the Peoples Front
    3 The Revolution of July 19
    4 Towards a Coalition with the Bourgeoisie
    5 The Politics of the Spanish Working Class
    6 The Programme of the Caballero Coalition Government
    7 The Programme of the Catalan Government
    8 Revival of the Bourgeois State: September 1936–April 1931
    9 The Counter-Revolution and the Masses
    10 The May Days: Barricades in Barcelona
    11 The Dismissal of Largo Caballero
    12 ‘El Gobierno de la Victoria’
    13 The Conquest of Catalonia
    14 The Conquest of Aragon
    15 The Military Struggle under Giral, and Caballero
    16 The Military Struggle under Negrin-Prieto
    17 Only Two Roads
    18 Postscript

    No romantic nonsense here .

    In fact this classic can be read here....

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/mor...olution-spain/BB


    Should be compulsory reading for the so called Leadership of the workers in Catalonia.


    BIG G


    Everyone's words of support are helping me thru this. I appreciate every comment, prayer and positive thought.

    Guys and girls I can't emphasise how much your words are encouraging and helping me. This battle has barely started but I know you'll be by my side every step of the way - it's giving me great strength - Shaun 16/03/2016

  25. #75
    Radge

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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Class war pish. I can only conclude that your knowledge of the 36- 39 events are pretty much $#@! all or at the very best best totally misinformed and bereft of class analysis.

    For a class analysis read Revolution and Counter Revolution in Spain by American Socialist Felix Morrow in 1938.

    Why the Fascists Revolted
    2 The Bourgeois ‘Allies’ in the Peoples Front
    3 The Revolution of July 19
    4 Towards a Coalition with the Bourgeoisie
    5 The Politics of the Spanish Working Class
    6 The Programme of the Caballero Coalition Government
    7 The Programme of the Catalan Government
    8 Revival of the Bourgeois State: September 1936–April 1931
    9 The Counter-Revolution and the Masses
    10 The May Days: Barricades in Barcelona
    11 The Dismissal of Largo Caballero
    12 ‘El Gobierno de la Victoria’
    13 The Conquest of Catalonia
    14 The Conquest of Aragon
    15 The Military Struggle under Giral, and Caballero
    16 The Military Struggle under Negrin-Prieto
    17 Only Two Roads
    18 Postscript

    No romantic nonsense here .

    In fact this classic can be read here....

    https://www.marxists.org/archive/mor...olution-spain/BB


    Should be compulsory reading for the so called Leadership of the workers in Catalonia.


    BIG G
    Its 2017 G. You misread what I said.
    nil satis nisi optimum

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