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Thread: Some thoughts on our finances.

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    Lightbulb Some thoughts on our finances.

    HSL is raising 100,000 for... What, exactly?

    A yearly salary of 2,000 a week for someone?

    Is that where we are?

    Here are some numbers, gleaned via the power of the Internet and provided by the club (happy to be corrected if they're a bit off):

    2012/2013 [European tie, Scottish Cup final]

    Turnover: 8.0m
    Staff costs: 3.9m (75,000 per week)
    Wages to Turnover: 49%
    Operating profit: 0.3m

    2013/2014 [Relegated]

    Turnover: 5.8m
    Staff costs: 3.7m (71,000 per week)
    Wages to Turnover: 64%
    Operating profit: -0.8m

    2014/2015 [First Championship season]

    Turnover: 5.6m
    Staff costs: 3.4m (65,000 per week)
    Wages to Turnover: 61%
    Operating profit: -0.8m

    2015/2016 [Scottish Cup]

    Turnover: 7m
    Staff costs: 3.8m (73,000 per week)
    Wages to Turnover: 54%
    Operating profit: 0.2m

    For the time being, I'm deliberately ignoring the cash-at-bank figures and the fact that we've brought in additional finance via the share programme and debt restructuring; these things are linked, and aren't necessarily interesting with regard to how the club operates on an annual basis. These are also the only figures I can marry up easily.

    But I think the point is clear.

    The club has lost money while it's in the Championship, and even two cup finals (winning one) and play-off matches at the end of the season could only see us post an operating profit of 200,000. Despite this, the club has used the aforementioned investments and refinancing to protect the financial stability of the club, and we also have significant value in our fixed assets.

    Financially speaking, and within our parameters, the club is incredibly well run.

    Look at the staff costs (wages, in effect) - despite significant losses in turnover, the club still looked to provide almost the same level of support to the management team in order to get the club promoted again. We should be commending the club for this.

    But is it enough for the Premiership?

    I'm solely going to compare staff costs, because I think that's what most people think of when they think about "competing". The value of fixed or tangible assets? Meh, not so much. Here are some numbers that I could look up easily:

    - Aberdeen 2015: 6.6m (127,000 per week) - 56,000 more than our average
    - Celtic 2014: 37.8m (727,000 per week) - 656,000 more than our average
    - Hearts 2015: 5.5m (106,000 per week) - 35,000 more than our average
    - Rangers 2016: 12.3m (237,000 per week) - 166,000 more than our average

    It looks as though our ceiling is 4 million, given that we've never gone above it, but the reality is that we won't be able to compete at the top end of the table if we don't increase it. I know the numbers I've provided are a little disjointed time-wise, and staff costs include lots of things outside of the playing budget.

    But 4 million a year got us relegated, albeit with a flunked manager and after years of decline. If the intention is to maintain that, we're looking mid-table at best which won't bring the consistent European football and silverware that we want to see.

    That said...

    I won't go into it in any detail, because it's boring, but there appears to be a lot of structural problems around with regard to finances in top-tier clubs. Clubs like Dundee and Motherwell are running with consistent millstones around their necks, Hearts are struggling to keep their head above water which is going to start biting pretty soon, and "Rangers" finances are a $#@!ing mess. Clubs like St Johnstone, Kilmarnock and Ross County are skint.

    We're extremely well run, given where we sit, and the additional monies brought in by being in the Premiership will see Hibs post a profit most years, with our cash in the bank providing a very nice buffer. We're still going to be putting much more into staff spending than all clubs away from the "big six", but we're in perhaps the unique position of posting a profit year on year thanks to the restructuring we've undergone.

    As a result, I'd expect that the wages we can pay to players will increase year-on-year assuming we maintain our position in the Premiership. We're probably aiming to raise our spending by, approximately, another million over the next several years with our city counterparts looking to lower it.

    I suppose it all depends on how we want to cut our cloth... But we've a chairman who we know simply won't push the boat out.

    Whether you're cool with that or not is, as ever, up to you.

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    So Charlie Reid is suggesting a 900K loss year 16/17 in his abomination HSL video?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    So Charlie Reid is suggesting a 900K loss year 16/17 in his abomination HSL video?
    I don't think so. I answered this in the other thread, bud, so I'll quote it:

    I think the number is inaccurate, but I don't know by how much. Here's how I believe Charlie arrived at it: he's added our two years of losses to reach a total of 1.7m, then took away the 200,000 profit we posted in 15/16 to reach 1.5m of losses. Personally, the reason I think it's inaccurate, is because I reckon we've posted another small profit this year by virtue of European football, winning the Championship, and increased season ticket sales from the year before. We also obtained another Hampden payday via the Scottish Cup semi-final, and I'm guessing that we paid slightly less in first team wages.

    Again, it's purely a guess (though a considered one...), but I think we're going to post an operating profit of between 100,000 and 200,000 for the last year. If Charlie is correct, and is including this year's figures, then we've broke even.

    Considering our position, that's still extremely stable and a testament to how well the club is run. Several Premiership clubs, including those competing with us, would dream of being in such a position.

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    Does the club see any benefit from its old land holdings, do you know?
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    Does the club see any benefit from its old land holdings, do you know?
    I don't have a copy of the full statements, I'm going off the publically available information posted online; but it really depends what land you're talking about, and what it's being used for (if at all). The value of our fixed assets tends to improve year on year, which suggests that there is some value gleaned from it.

    But again; it'd depend on what land you're talking about, whether or not the club owns it, and how it's paid for if it does.

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    The land at east mains to the best of my knowledge is still all under one title. There is acres and acres excess land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    The land at east mains to the best of my knowledge is still all under one title. There is acres and acres excess land.
    Farmer's love land.

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Farmer's love land.

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk
    Must be worth millions. If sold could pay off his 'debt' and give us a stable balance. Not that I think we should be paying the debt his board ran up but that's another discussion

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    The land at east mains to the best of my knowledge is still all under one title. There is acres and acres excess land.
    I don't know if the club owns the land, however, and therefore what impact it has on the balance sheet.

    If the club owns the land, it'll be paying LBBT at the very least - but if we don't own it, well... That's a whole other question.

    I just don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    I don't have a copy of the full statements, I'm going off the publically available information posted online; but it really depends what land you're talking about, and what it's being used for (if at all). The value of our fixed assets tends to improve year on year, which suggests that there is some value gleaned from it.

    But again; it'd depend on what land you're talking about, whether or not the club owns it, and how it's paid for if it does.
    My knowledge is sparse. My understanding was that the club owned the 'Lochend Butterfly' (obviously now developed), some land at the foot of the Royal Mile, and some other bits that I know nothing about (East Mains as mentioned, I guess).

    These were in a separate company (again as far as I know, which is not far) to the football operation. I'm just wondering if the club makes or made money from them, and if so in what form. The figures you allude to may very well not be the place to find out of course.
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Must be worth millions. If sold could pay off his 'debt' and give us a stable balance. Not that I think we should be paying the debt his board ran up but that's another discussion
    I agree wholeheartedly mate. But rather not get into it as it always ends up in a slanging match. I suppose we will find out when he dies, though there are Hibs fans that seem to think he's indestructible. We should be grateful for ever and ever and aw that....

    Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

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    And I think this is part of why sort are reluctant with hsl, some may not like it but some feel it's wrong to be paying him such a sum. Also think the lack of independence bother some. Not all but for some it's an issue. The potential is huge is we can find a unified way of channeling it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    Must be worth millions. If sold could pay off his 'debt' and give us a stable balance. Not that I think we should be paying the debt his board ran up but that's another discussion
    Okay, there are a few bits and pieces here.

    HFC Holdings (the holding company, ran by Tom Farmer) have some securities on our major stuff. The major one, of course, is the outstanding security held on the stadium - so HFC Holdings owns Easter Road, meaning that Tom Farmer owns it.

    That shouldn't surprise anyone.

    But other securities are a bit sketchier without access to the books.

    The land around East Mains, however, doesn't appear to be ours. As far as I can discern, it belongs to East Mains Limited, which is a company that currently holds three standard securities on Hibs that amount to 23.13 hectares of land. All other charges or securities against Hibs have either been settled, or are now allocated to HFC Holdings (other than one security for Santander, but I'm pretty sure that's just insurance policies).

    So it seems likely that the land you're asking about is costing us to rent, and other areas that we used to have are now satisfied (sold) - so are earning us nothing.

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    My memory is that Hibs bought all the land at east mains in 2 separate deals?? Away at moment so do not have access to computer or the details
    Rod send me when they wanted donations
    Into community foundation to take over east mains

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    I think that this closed season has made it abundantly clear just how perilous the club finances are despite transfer monies and offloading excess earners. A lack of desire to 'push the boat out' for expensive players and the HSL video have brought it into focus. If we can put out a team to consolidate in the PL in our first season back, I think we should be contented with that, never mind challenging at the top. Some folk on here won't agree as they see Hibs as a club of great stature in Scotland that should outspend everyone (with the obvious exceptions) to land quality players, and on paper we should, but cash is king and building up finances is paramount. The desire to speculate to accumulate has seen big rival clubs struggle or go to the wall. Hibs won't go there unless fans want a big daft piggy (cow) bank at the stadium.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Okay, there are a few bits and pieces here.

    HFC Holdings (the holding company, ran by Tom Farmer) have some securities on our major stuff. The major one, of course, is the outstanding security held on the stadium - so HFC Holdings owns Easter Road, meaning that Tom Farmer owns it.

    That shouldn't surprise anyone.

    But other securities are a bit sketchier without access to the books.

    The land around East Mains, however, doesn't appear to be ours. As far as I can discern, it belongs to East Mains Limited, which is a company that currently holds three standard securities on Hibs that amount to 23.13 hectares of land. All other charges or securities against Hibs have either been settled, or are now allocated to HFC Holdings (other than one security for Santander, but I'm pretty sure that's just insurance policies).

    So it seems likely that the land you're asking about is costing us to rent, and other areas that we used to have are now satisfied (sold) - so are earning us nothing.
    I'm not able to check the story but from this link it certainly appears as though Hibs bought the land upon which the training centre sits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NW View Post
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    My memory is that Hibs bought all the land at east mains in 2 separate deals?? Away at moment so do not have access to computer or the details
    Rod send me when they wanted donations
    Into community foundation to take over east mains
    You're quite right. East Mains Limited owes US the money for use of the land.

    The club owns it, and appears to be earning money from it.

    That's what happens when you read fast - you read wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    Okay, there are a few bits and pieces here.HFC Holdings (the holding company, ran by Tom Farmer) have some securities on our major stuff. The major one, of course, is the outstanding security held on the stadium - so HFC Holdings owns Easter Road, meaning that Tom Farmer owns it.That shouldn't surprise anyone.But other securities are a bit sketchier without access to the books.The land around East Mains, however, doesn't appear to be ours. As far as I can discern, it belongs to East Mains Limited, which is a company that currently holds three standard securities on Hibs that amount to 23.13 hectares of land. All other charges or securities against Hibs have either been settled, or are now allocated to HFC Holdings (other than one security for Santander, but I'm pretty sure that's just insurance policies).So it seems likely that the land you're asking about is costing us to rent, and other areas that we used to have are now satisfied (sold) - so are earning us nothing.
    What happened to all the money raised when the land at straiton was sold and has since been developed, I was under the impression when our Tom bought hibs the said land fell into his lap as a result, is this all rumour? Or is there some truth in it?
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    I remember posting on here IIRC around 2007 moaning like $#@! (as usual...) about 'Capital infrastructure are us...' because the club had invested quite a chunk of cash on extra land down East Mains?

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    I don't recall Hibs or TF owning the Lochend Butterfly, Hibs owned the old car park and the demolished part of the old terracing. They were in a consortium with 2 other parties to acquire the land, develop it and Hibs share of the profit going towards the debt. Heartd City cooncil done the dirty on them and that was that.

    Hibs owner in demand for answers to land sale - The Scotsman

    As far as i know Hibs own the land at EM. Did we not get it for a song because it agricultural land and we're not allowed (at the moment) to build houses on it.

    the land at straiton was nothing to do with Hibs, TF's company owned it but proposed to relocate there as part of the original development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by offshorehibby View Post
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    I don't recall Hibs or TF owning the Lochend Butterfly, Hibs owned the old car park and the demolished part of the old terracing. They were in a consortium with 2 other parties to acquire the land, develop it and Hibs share of the profit going towards the debt. Heartd City cooncil done the dirty on them and that was that.

    Hibs owner in demand for answers to land sale - The Scotsman

    As far as i know Hibs own the land at EM. Did we not get it for a song because it agricultural land and we're not allowed (at the moment) to build houses on it.

    the land at straiton was nothing to do with Hibs, TF's company owned it but proposed to relocate there as part of the original development.
    IIRC it was a complete stitch up by the council.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
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    You're quite right. East Mains Limited owes US the money for use of the land.The club owns it, and appears to be earning money from it.That's what happens when you read fast - you read wrong.
    Who are East Mains Limited? I was told hibs own land at East Msins which training centre is on plus other land which hasn't been developed.Also, Hibernian Holdings has land ???Regards

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    As far as I recall we bought EM in two parts because after we bought the first bit it was realised there was access problems. We do own much more than is currently developed for football. I would hope the club rent that land to farmers until such time as we can do something with it.

    Are you sure about the staff costs for the other clubs @Zellviren?

    I think it was Willie Miller a few weeks ago was whinging that the 🐑 budget was only £42k a week although that was dismissed by some as an old figure quoted from some interview 2 or 3 seasons ago but that's the time you're saying.

    It's also worth remembering with these figures it includes all staff not just the playing staff and we used to have our directors pay in ours. Now we don't pay most of our board! Other clubs might have similar arrangements or include or exclude all sorts.

    Also the size of the squad can effect quality when spend is the same. So if things go according to the way I think they will, we have a small squad with a couple of youngsters so just over 20 in number, a club like the gunts who used to have squads over 30 basically need to spend a third more roughly speaking for the same quality.

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    I think the £42k a week Miller mentioned was for playing staff. Whereas the higher figures mentioned above are ALL the staff.

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    42k, seems a familiar figure. Our highest earner gets that monthly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I would hope the club rent that land to farmers until such time as we can do something with it.
    East Mains Limited is rented to doctors... Who I think are vets. :O

    My suspicion is, therefore, that we're renting the land out to them for one reason or another; it certainly seems sensible, given what the land used to be used for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Are you sure about the staff costs for the other clubs?
    Pretty sure, bud. The numbers are drawn from the club's official accounts for the year I listed, so they're as accurate as possible. But your other main point is absolutely true; staff costs include ALL staff, and not merely playing staff, but for football clubs that will clearly be the majority. General staff at Hibs, for example, are probably not on terribly much more than the living wage (outside of directors, several of which we don't pay) and a guideline for us would be the added 200,000 that brining hospitality back in house cost us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Also the size of the squad can effect quality when spend is the same. So if things go according to the way I think they will, we have a small squad with a couple of youngsters so just over 20 in number, a club like the gunts who used to have squads over 30 basically need to spend a third more roughly speaking for the same quality.
    All things being equal, most clubs operate under an unofficial salary "cap". Clubs like us, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee United should be spending roughly the same on our squads but how many you want to list will make a difference.

    In general terms, slightly bigger squads will be slightly lower on quality and vice versa.

    As for the 42,000 a week, multiplying that out over a year gives you just under 2.2m and would see a squad of 20 on 2,100 a week. There's no way that can be right, so I'll look up what Miller said and the context of his complaint.

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