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Thread: Adam and Eve

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    Adam and Eve

    According to the book of Genesis we are all descended from Adam and Eve, who had three sons..........

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    I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination but even I can see a flaw in that, hmm.

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    Also in any depiction you care to mention if you see them face on they've got belly buttons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    Also in any depiction you care to mention if you see them face on they've got belly buttons.
    Ha. Now that I am willing to put down to artistic license as these depictions were created hunners of years after the 'fact'

    *Unless you've access to some photos previously unknown to historians 😂

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmc View Post
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    I'm not a biblical scholar by any stretch of the imagination but even I can see a flaw in that, hmm.
    In the Church of England's updated version two of the sons marry and are bestowed with children by Lambeth borough council.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    According to the book of Genesis we are all descended from Adam and Eve, who had three sons..........
    Genius, just got a number of people checking Genesis. Apparently Cain got sent to the Land of Nod, I guess he took a niece or sister, guntish I know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    According to the book of Genesis we are all descended from Adam and Eve, who had three sons..........

    I've always thought Phil Collins was a gobshite.

    Adam and eve did not exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daddy 'O' Hibee View Post
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    Genius, just got a number of people checking Genesis. Apparently Cain got sent to the Land of Nod, I guess he took a niece or sister, guntish I know.
    so where did the neice or sister come frae?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    I've always thought Phil Collins was a gobshite.

    Adam and eve did not exist.
    What are you trying to tell me the bible is a lot of $#@!e?

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    so where did the neice or sister come frae?

    - - - Updated - - -

    What are you trying to tell me the bible is a lot of $#@!e?
    Only creationists and a certain strain of atheist read genesis literally - on the other side of the fence are the rest of Christianity, scholars and others who respect knowledge

    In that way it's a bit like Marxist theory; No one takes it literally excepted religious fundamentalists and those unpersuaded by science

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    In the Church of England's updated version two of the sons marry and are bestowed with children by Lambeth borough council.
    It's not often you post something that has me pissing myself laughing but this is one of those comedy genius occassions

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    In the Church of England's updated version two of the sons marry and are bestowed with children by Lambeth borough council.


    Well played, sir
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Only creationists and a certain strain of atheist read genesis literally - on the other side of the fence are the rest of Christianity, scholars and others who respect knowledgee
    Is the stuff in Genisis any more ridiculous than the stuff that happens in the New Testament though?Virgins giving birth, resurrection from the dead, water turning to wine, 5000 folk getting their tea off 5 loafs of pilchard sandwiches?If you take all the fairy tale bollocks out of any religion it makes the whole thing fairly redundant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    Is the stuff in Genisis any more ridiculous than the stuff that happens in the New Testament though?Virgins giving birth, resurrection from the dead, water turning to wine, 5000 folk getting their tea off 5 loafs of pilchard sandwiches?If you take all the fairy tale bollocks out of any religion it makes the whole thing fairly redundant.
    Obviously that's where the leap of faith comes in.

    Let's face it though, life is full of them. The implications of unbelief is that reality popped into being from nothing (or perhaps is eternal and un caused - either way, 'magical'). Then multiverses need to be posited to rationalise the fine tuning of this universe without a Creator - i.e. an infinite number of unseen and unknowable entities need to be posited to explain away one.

    Then there's all the things that can't be true in a materialist universe or are chemical illusions, and yet many people believe in them at some level; free will, love, equality. And what about the contra evolutionary morality we've inherited from religion, and the increasingly contradictory make believe of rights and law...on and on it goes (for example, what is the more consequential rejection of evolution: believing Adam and Eve coexisted with dinosaurs or declaring that gender in unimportant to parenting?)

    It's beyond me how people can swallow all this, but they do. More than that they often don't recognise it. Afaik only a few Russian nihilists made a real attempt to be done with it all, and they all went mad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ps It looks like everything is going full circle; the increasingly popular belief that we live inside a simulation allows atheists to bring back a creator, an afterlife and the idea that existence has meaning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Obviously that's where the leap of faith comes in.
    I guess so, but then why a leap of faith with some stuff in the bible and not with others?

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    The implications of unbelief is that reality popped into being from nothing (or perhaps is eternal and un caused - either way, 'magical'). Then multiverses need to be posited to rationalise the fine tuning of this universe without a Creator - i.e. an infinite number of unseen and unknowable entities need to be posited to explain away one.
    Isn't this just the "god of the gaps" fallacy though? I prefer "We don't know yet" to "God must have done it" with regards to human understanding of the natural universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Then there's all the things that can't be true in a materialist universe or are chemical illusions, and yet many people believe in them at some level; free will, love, equality. And what about the contra evolutionary morality we've inherited from religion, and the increasingly contradictory make believe of rights and law...on and on it goes
    Love as an evolutionary advance, i.e. your brain releasing serotonin levels around people who are important to you (and your survival), makes sense. Just because it is chemical doesn't make it feel any less beautiful.

    Rights, law and free will are great human inventions that make society function properly, but I don't think they inherently need religion to work (even if religious literature informed them). In fact all around the world religious dogma corrodes law, liberty and freedom for certain sections of society. A dangerous side effect of faith based thinking in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    for example, what is the more consequential rejection of evolution: believing Adam and Eve coexisted with dinosaurs or declaring that gender in unimportant to parenting?
    One is a fact proven beyond reasonable doubt, the other is open to discussion and debate. I'm not sure what gender politics has to do faith (or a lack of it) though.

    I understand the comfort people get from faith, but I don't understand what it really provides, or what those of us who have rejected it are missing out on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Ps It looks like everything is going full circle; the increasingly popular belief that we live inside a simulation allows atheists to bring back a creator, an afterlife and the idea that existence has meaning.
    That's a new one on me - you've got to provide a link! Although, isn't that just the plot of The Matrix?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    I guess so, but then why a leap of faith with some stuff in the bible and not with others?
    well both are for some people, but that's to ignore what we know from science and also what we know about the way people wrote in the era genesis was written; communicating meaning not recording events, i.e. allegorically. I can manage leaps of faith where we can't know, but what we do know, we know.

    Isn't this just the "god of the gaps" fallacy though? I prefer "We don't know yet" to "God must have done it" with regards to human understanding of the natural universe.
    its not god of the gaps stuff; it's where science breaks down. At the end point you are left with reality either being eternal or popping into being from nothing - and by nothing I don't mean a vacuum or anti matter, I mean nothing. Either is basically magical and in themselves very difficult propositions.

    Love as an evolutionary advance, i.e. your brain releasing serotonin levels around people who are important to you (and your survival), makes sense. Just because it is chemical doesn't make it feel any less beautiful.
    for sure, but when you boil down a materialistic take in it, that doesn't really equate to what most people like to believe in - not least when you take free will out of it.
    Rights, law and free will are great human inventions that make society function properly, but I don't think they inherently need religion to work (even if religious literature informed them). In fact all around the world religious dogma corrodes law, liberty and freedom for certain sections of society. A dangerous side effect of faith based thinking in my opinion.
    free will is different than the other things you list - it's not an invention, we either have it or we don't. Rights, law etc - at least as we have them in our society - are very much an inheritance of our society's religious past. In an atheist interpretation they are of course wholly invented which is why it is odd that taking that basic fact - as well as the evidence of history - people can claim that they have some universal claim in an atheist reality. That's not to mention the inherent strangeness of anti Darwinian values maintaining. Where we have had - thankfully abandoned in the west - attempts to reform society based on a 'rational' scientific foundation, evolutionary process has been one alternative source of authority. I fear these dragons haven't gone away btw; humanism, liberalism et al facd a battering from science this century and I'm not sure how they'll hold up.

    One is a fact proven beyond reasonable doubt, the other is open to discussion and debate. I'm not sure what gender politics has to do faith (or a lack of it) though.
    its proven beyond reasonable doubt that most - probably all but I'm not a zoologist - of higher species have evolved distinct genders to facilitate complex nurture requirements. Our rejection of that knowledge is a rejection of evolution as much as creationism is, indeed more so; because however improbable a creator, whether God our the designer of a simulated reality could in theory have set things up so we appear to originate in a Big Bang etc. On the other hand we concretely know beyond doubt the recurring pattern of gender and nurture in higher species.
    I understand the comfort people get from faith, but I don't understand what it really provides, or what those of us who have rejected it are missing out on.
    my point is that very few if any people make do without belief in a whole bunch of things that from an atheist POV are wholly invented, as well as implicitly ending up - if they think about it at all - having to posit some very difficult (eternal or magically appearing reality) and / or faith based (multiverse) propositions. As with you I appreciate that people take comfort from some of these and prefer not to ponder others, and that's fine. It is however a bit too much for me personally to sign up to.


    That's a new one on me - you've got to provide a link! Although, isn't that just the plot of The Matrix?
    will do so when I get a moment. It's not as daft as it sounds and perhaps predictably popular in Silicon Valley. In the end up though, a classic case of people rationalising their way up their own backsides imho

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    so where did the neice or sister come frae? Truth, no idea, guess Adam and Eve like you loved fruit, lived long long time, lots of spare time to have babies. My knowledge of the old testament is zilch, I could read it a million times and despair. The answer you seek is in the Koran I believe, Cain and Abel had female twin born with them, they were not permitted to engage with their birth twin. Either you believe or you don't, but people can change thought on life's journey.

    - - - Updated - - -

    What are you trying to tell me the bible is a lot of $#@!e?
    You're a her naughty boy Brian.😇

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    It's not often you post something that has me pissing myself laughing but this is one of those comedy genius occassions

    I doff my cap to you sir
    Gave me the giggles tae😂


    Think I might nip over to Gorgie Farm and count some Chickens before they've hatched

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Crikey thats a bit of a mind fukk.
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    My Dad, Church of England, was a bit of a Bible expert.

    When I questioned the Bible as a RC nipper he explained the Old Testament was like folk lore. Stories handed down through the generations and subject to a wee change now and again until someone thought it would be a good idea to write it down. As such they're no more than wee stories stuck in time.

    The New Testament was pretty much the Daily Mail (his paper of choice at the time, his time not the NT) and was written with their leanings aimed at those with similar leanings. As such it couldn't really be taken as gospel :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    What are you trying to tell me the bible is a lot of $#@!e?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    well both are for some people, but that's to ignore what we know from science and also what we know about the way people wrote in the era genesis was written; communicating meaning not recording events, i.e. allegorically. I can manage leaps of faith where we can't know, but what we do know, we know.

    its not god of the gaps stuff; it's where science breaks down. At the end point you are left with reality either being eternal or popping into being from nothing - and by nothing I don't mean a vacuum or anti matter, I mean nothing. Either is basically magical and in themselves very difficult propositions.

    for sure, but when you boil down a materialistic take in it, that doesn't really equate to what most people like to believe in - not least when you take free will out of it.
    free will is different than the other things you list - it's not an invention, we either have it or we don't. Rights, law etc - at least as we have them in our society - are very much an inheritance of our society's religious past. In an atheist interpretation they are of course wholly invented which is why it is odd that taking that basic fact - as well as the evidence of history - people can claim that they have some universal claim in an atheist reality. That's not to mention the inherent strangeness of anti Darwinian values maintaining. Where we have had - thankfully abandoned in the west - attempts to reform society based on a 'rational' scientific foundation, evolutionary process has been one alternative source of authority. I fear these dragons haven't gone away btw; humanism, liberalism et al facd a battering from science this century and I'm not sure how they'll hold up.

    its proven beyond reasonable doubt that most - probably all but I'm not a zoologist - of higher species have evolved distinct genders to facilitate complex nurture requirements. Our rejection of that knowledge is a rejection of evolution as much as creationism is, indeed more so; because however improbable a creator, whether God our the designer of a simulated reality could in theory have set things up so we appear to originate in a Big Bang etc. On the other hand we concretely know beyond doubt the recurring pattern of gender and nurture in higher species.
    my point is that very few if any people make do without belief in a whole bunch of things that from an atheist POV are wholly invented, as well as implicitly ending up - if they think about it at all - having to posit some very difficult (eternal or magically appearing reality) and / or faith based (multiverse) propositions. As with you I appreciate that people take comfort from some of these and prefer not to ponder others, and that's fine. It is however a bit too much for me personally to sign up to.


    will do so when I get a moment. It's not as daft as it sounds and perhaps predictably popular in Silicon Valley. In the end up though, a classic case of people rationalising their way up their own backsides imho



    you've put tomes down on the bounce over the years.. defending the indefensible () in respect of God/religion/catholicism etc etc, but 100% if you had not been brought up in that manner, and you were presented with the entire canons of the Abrahamic religions as an adult, you would $#@!ing destroy them, in their entirety! Your completely critical of all subjects, and imo correct in many of them.....but come awfy unstuck with this!

    When I happen to frequent Mosques in Edinburgh with friends of that persuasion, there is rooms of little kids sitting in rows being told verbatim idiotic nonsense day after day after day....or you have catholic kids believeing they are going to a $#@!ing fiery furnace should they step out of line etc.
    Its child abuse.

    Lets not teach any children any $#@!e from any "holy" (or is that toly?) books, and let them decide, as adults, if its something they would like to learn, and if they then "believe" as adults.... well....

    Think we'd soon find it consigned to the dustbin, and we can love their gods like we love the gods of the vikings and the romans and the greeks and the egyptians blah blah blah.....

    peace radge .

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    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    you've put tomes down on the bounce over the years.. defending the indefensible () in respect of God/religion/catholicism etc etc, but 100% if you had not been brought up in that manner, and you were presented with the entire canons of the Abrahamic religions as an adult, you would $#@!ing destroy them, in their entirety! Your completely critical of all subjects, and imo correct in many of them.....but come awfy unstuck with this!

    When I happen to frequent Mosques in Edinburgh with friends of that persuasion, there is rooms of little kids sitting in rows being told verbatim idiotic nonsense day after day after day....or you have catholic kids believeing they are going to a $#@!ing fiery furnace should they step out of line etc.
    Its child abuse.

    Lets not teach any children any $#@!e from any "holy" (or is that toly?) books, and let them decide, as adults, if its something they would like to learn, and if they then "believe" as adults.... well....

    Think we'd soon find it consigned to the dustbin, and we can love their gods like we love the gods of the vikings and the romans and the greeks and the egyptians blah blah blah.....

    peace radge .
    We're certainly all a product of our environment; if you'd been born elsewhere you'd be a product of those circumstances. At least I know I'm not the kind to go along with the nonsense of the day, so maybe would have a chance of the same if I'd been brought up elsewhere.

    You say I defend the indefensible - I'm quite open about the leaps of faith involved. My recurring theme is that in doing so I'm several steps ahead of those who believe in magic and all kinds of invented and contradictory nonsense, without seeming to realise or it, or even worse imagining themselves to be some kind of rationalists. In turn, i don't know how those people can defend that. Many just go along with the fashions of the day perhaps, but for men like yourselves who feel strongly about it - I don't know how you reconcile it all. I don't think it's me that's unstuck tbh.

    Ps not sure any catholic kids are being taught about furnaces.

    Are atheist kids to be taught that life is a meaningless cycle of purposeless reproduction and death, with its only consolations a bunch of chemical illusions and the countless fabricated beliefs of our day? And also very shortly over, after which it will be of no consequence they ever existed at all?

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    "Religion is part of the human make-up.It's also part of our cultural and intellectual history.Religion was our first attempt at literature,the texts,our first attempt at cosmology,making sense of where we are in the universe, our first attempt at health care, believing in faith healing, our first attempt at philosophy."


    "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people, is the demand for real happiness.To call on them to give up their illusions about their conditions is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.The criticism of religionis, therefore, in embryo,the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

    "Religious suffering is,at one at the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering.Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world,and the soul of soulles conditions.It is the opium of the people."

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Are atheist kids to be taught that life is a meaningless cycle of purposeless reproduction and death, with its only consolations a bunch of chemical illusions and the countless fabricated beliefs of our day? And also very shortly over, after which it will be of no consequence they ever existed at all?
    A view that would only attribute meaning, purpose and consequence to life if their is some supernatural prize at the end is a pretty depressing one if you ask me.

    I like to think my daughter will grow up celebrating life for the precious gift it is and enjoying everything it has to offer while she is here. I certainly don't want her constrained by tradition or worrying about what might happen when she dies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Are atheist kids to be taught that life is a meaningless cycle of purposeless reproduction and death, with its only consolations a bunch of chemical illusions and the countless fabricated beliefs of our day? And also very shortly over, after which it will be of no consequence they ever existed at all?
    I get confused most of the time but isn't that a straw-man point you are making?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasco de gama View Post
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    I get confused most of the time but isn't that a straw-man point you are making?
    It was in response to one !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    A view that would only attribute meaning, purpose and consequence to life if their is some supernatural prize at the end is a pretty depressing one if you ask me.

    I like to think my daughter will grow up celebrating life for the precious gift it is and enjoying everything it has to offer while she is here. I certainly don't want her constrained by tradition or worrying about what might happen when she dies.
    The point is you are substituting one set of illusions for what you see as another; necessarily so I might add, I'm not dissing it just pointing it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moathibby View Post
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    "Religion is part of the human make-up.It's also part of our cultural and intellectual history.Religion was our first attempt at literature,the texts,our first attempt at cosmology,making sense of where we are in the universe, our first attempt at health care, believing in faith healing, our first attempt at philosophy."


    "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people, is the demand for real happiness.To call on them to give up their illusions about their conditions is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.The criticism of religionis, therefore, in embryo,the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo."

    "Religious suffering is,at one at the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering.Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world,and the soul of soulles conditions.It is the opium of the people."
    Marxism is a religion; it has prophets, holy scriptures, an elaborated theory on 'how to live' and the order of things - one I may add which ignores what science tells us about evolutionary impulses and what study of history tells us about how the world works, it has a millennial vision of a utopia realised after a purgative struggle, it is closely linked to Eden myths of a noble savage subsequently corrupted by worldly systems, it doesn't have theorists and voters as do liberalism and conservatism it has passionate preachers and disciples, it bestows meaning on the lives of the faithful and offers the promise of salvation to the convert, it is riddled with sectarian schisms and it takes a very dim view of heretics.

    And it's been not so much the opium as the LSD of some people and the cyanide of many more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    I like to think my daughter will grow up celebrating life for the precious gift it is and enjoying everything it has to offer while she is here. I certainly don't want her constrained by tradition or worrying about what might happen when she dies.
    My in-laws, who look after our kids a lot, take them to church and also talk a lot, and I mean a lot, about God / Jesus. At first it really bugged me, especially when the 3,5, and 7 year old got really upset because some idiot at church had told them that because their dad doesn't believe in God he won't get to meet them in heaven when we all die. However, despite that I think it actually helps us have more discussions about subjects that probably trouble the minds of most young kids. I'm able to present different theories and beliefs and point to how different people and family members they love, and know are fundamentally nice, have very different ideas about what the truth may be. Of course I let them know that my opinion - we do not know for sure - is the correct one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Marxism is a religion; it has prophets, holy scriptures, an elaborated theory on 'how to live' and the order of things - one I may add which ignores what science tells us about evolutionary impulses and what study of history tells us about how the world works, it has a millennial vision of a utopia realised after a purgative struggle, it is closely linked to Eden myths of a noble savage subsequently corrupted by worldly systems, it doesn't have theorists and voters as do liberalism and conservatism it has passionate preachers and disciples, it bestows meaning on the lives of the faithful and offers the promise of salvation to the convert, it is riddled with sectarian schisms and it takes a very dim view of heretics.

    And it's been not so much the opium as the LSD of some people and the cyanide of many more.
    Did you just think up that reply or is it taken from a book. I think its a pretty good reply and I like the little add on sentence at the end.

    As I think you know, my wife is from Guatemala which had a long brutal civil war. This war was primarily between a horrible racist corrupt regime and an equally horrible 'victory at all costs' marxist organization. In my view the marxists knowingly exploited the same indigenous villagers that the rulers had exploited and murdered for decades. Anyway, my point is that I find it very interesting that so many marxist strongholds appear in communities that have a long history of religious dogma. Similarly, that so many ex-marxists then become either born again fundamentalists or born again elitist racists / capitalists or other forms of right wing bullies. How many ISIS converts are from similar backgrounds of previous differing dogmatic beliefs would perhaps be an interesting report?

    I do have to say that given your critical dissection of pretty much everything I am surprised you appear to so strongly still believe in God - is it something that often troubles you or have you rationalised those questions away?

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasco de gama View Post
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    My in-laws, who look after our kids a lot, take them to church and also talk a lot, and I mean a lot, about God / Jesus. At first it really bugged me, especially when the 3,5, and 7 year old got really upset because some idiot at church had told them that because their dad doesn't believe in God he won't get to meet them in heaven when we all die. However, despite that I think it actually helps us have more discussions about subjects that probably trouble the minds of most young kids. I'm able to present different theories and beliefs and point to how different people and family members they love, and know are fundamentally nice, have very different ideas about what the truth may be. Of course I let them know that my opinion - we do not know for sure - is the correct one.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-8810062.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    It was in response to one !- - - Updated - - -The point is you are substituting one set of illusions for what you see as another; necessarily so I might add, I'm not dissing it just pointing it out.
    I really don't understand how you get to that assumption egb. I'm proposing "we don't know yet" as the best answer to life's wonders instead of a tradional faith based answer. I don't see how that's an illusion? Quite the opposite in fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasco de gama View Post
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    My in-laws, who look after our kids a lot, take them to church and also talk a lot, and I mean a lot, about God / Jesus. At first it really bugged me, especially when the 3,5, and 7 year old got really upset because some idiot at church had told them that because their dad doesn't believe in God he won't get to meet them in heaven when we all die. However, despite that I think it actually helps us have more discussions about subjects that probably trouble the minds of most young kids. I'm able to present different theories and beliefs and point to how different people and family members they love, and know are fundamentally nice, have very different ideas about what the truth may be. Of course I let them know that my opinion - we do not know for sure - is the correct one.
    I'm not necessarily against using religious stories to explain morals to children, I was a Sunday school attendee myself, I just don't see the point when neither my wife or I are religious. You can get the same values from aesops fables without any of the other baggage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Ah but these Christians are from one of the wings of Christianity that think the Pope and all Catholics have got the message all wrong...

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasco de gama View Post
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    Did you just think up that reply or is it taken from a book. I think its a pretty good reply and I like the little add on sentence at the end.

    As I think you know, my wife is from Guatemala which had a long brutal civil war. This war was primarily between a horrible racist corrupt regime and an equally horrible 'victory at all costs' marxist organization. In my view the marxists knowingly exploited the same indigenous villagers that the rulers had exploited and murdered for decades. Anyway, my point is that I find it very interesting that so many marxist strongholds appear in communities that have a long history of religious dogma. Similarly, that so many ex-marxists then become either born again fundamentalists or born again elitist racists / capitalists or other forms of right wing bullies. How many ISIS converts are from similar backgrounds of previous differing dogmatic beliefs would perhaps be an interesting report?

    I do have to say that given your critical dissection of pretty much everything I am surprised you appear to so strongly still believe in God - is it something that often troubles you or have you rationalised those questions away?
    Troubles me big time, and I don't think I'm a strong believer at all. I am the opposite of those 'not religious but spiritual types' - I don't have a spiritual bone in my body. I am one of the average struggling along sorts, that it seemed to me was the accepted norm until 9/11 shone through the lens of political correctness (another manifestation of a displaced religious instinct) - which prevents rational precision so and caused the general anxiety about and antipathy towards religion that we have today. After that, anyone religious at all seemed to be painted as the holy willies that when I were a lad, your average church goer was as wary of as anyone else. In case you haven't notice, I rarely start these threads, I just respond to others.

    On Marxism; the passage you liked (thanks) , is my concoction but not original in its ideas. As you may have noticed I'm quite interested in the history of ideas and the identification of leftism as a displaced religious impulse is well established. It goes further - for example the gnostic notions of body / soul duality ('you' are not equivalent to the body machine you inhabit) rears all over the place in blank slate theories of humanity on which much of leftist thought ultimately depends, and more recently in Identity politics especially transgender rhetoric. In contrast, science and mainstream Christianity would dispute that you are divisible from your body.

    By the way, I recommend to you one of my favourite novels which does this in reverse and uses the post reformation wars as a metaphor for the twentieth century, with Catholicism as conservatism, Protestantism as first the revolution then liberal capitalism and he anabaptists as anarchism. It's called Q and is by Luther Blisset, which is the pen name assumed by a group of Italian anarchists who took it from the footballer after his difficult time as one of the first black players in Italy. Unlike the ham fisted narrow minded bigotry you'd get from Anglo Saxon peers, it's remarkably even handed. Despite the authors sympathies, you get a fair hearing for all sides with, for instance, the catholic fear of nihilism resulting from a loss of meaning, borne out in the bloody hell the anarchist utopia becomes , which is based on real events...early Protestantism rejecting free will and assuming a deterministic universe in which we had no agency in our fate...

    Your observation about Marxism in religious settings is interesting and something I've pondered. I've concluded it's erm inconclusive. For example, contra what you might expect, revolutionary Spain took root in one of the most historically irreligious parts of Europe. Then there is the forbidden terrain of national temparement. I don't think it's a coincidence that thr most guilt ridden forms of Christianity are found in say Germany, Ireland and Scotland. The Catholic Church was actually a thought leader in anxiety disorders going back hundreds of years, as it tried to respond to excessive religious guilt which it found almost absent in Mediterranean countries and a problem in the north. It's high stakes stuff as some posit it as the root cause of the reformation. I don't know about that but I think it's no coincidence that Germany has produced reformation, endless radical philosophers, Marxism, national socialism and indeed the word angst. I also think it's no coincidence the black hearted celts produced the most austere forms of both Catholicism and Protestantism and that we are damagingly fond of a drink.

    Russia meanwhile has always been a hotbed of every kind of philosophy pushed further than anyone else, while the atheist collectivism of Confucianism clearly smoothed the way for Chinese communism. Then there's the fact that, Marxism (and fascism) traces its roots to revolutionary France and the first real stirrings of an imperative to create a rational, scientific and atheist order. And finally, Sunni Islam is startlingly resemblent of communism with its egalitarianism, lack of central authority and of course as a total system for living in which there is no separation of ideology and the operation of society and the state.

    In short, a mixed bag, from which I surmise that there are recurring inclinations and dispositions in the human condition and even in specific cultures. Religion either reflects this or the religious instinct is inherent and is displaced into other things under atheism, and our selfishness and evolutionary impulse to dominate, distorts everything. Again the latter is just as one would expect in either a scientific reading of humanity, or in the Christian account of our nature. Humanism seems to have trouble dealing with it, bless.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Ps sorry for instances of bad punctuation - my iPad periodically prevents me using characters like brackets and apostrophes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vasco de gama View Post
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    Ah but these Christians are from one of the wings of Christianity that think the Pope and all Catholics have got the message all wrong...
    I thought as much - not that you don't get judgemental Catholics. The irony is that if they were true to Calvin, the most rampant atheist gay playboy might be saved and the most committed selfless Christian for the flames, and not a whit either could do about it.

    I favour the view of a catholic theologian I read who said, words to the effect, that (as Catholics) we are obliged to believe that hell exists, but not obliged to believe that there is anyone in it.

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    I really don't understand how you get to that assumption egb. I'm proposing "we don't know yet" as the best answer to life's wonders instead of a tradional faith based answer. I don't see how that's an illusion? Quite the opposite in fact.
    i'm not referring to that. In my previous I posited two areas I would find difficult as an atheist:

    1) the need for everything to resolve to magic, and while you can choose a more respectable word if you like, that is indeed what happens. Once more, it isn't God in the gaps stuff, and there is no 'don't know yet either'; we will never find away around it because the problem is clearly unanswerable: a godless universe either spontaneously created from nothing, or it's causal ingredients are eternal. Either way, in everyday language, 'magic'.

    2) the illusions and fabrications that we feel are necessary to make sense of and give meaning to the meaningless and senseless.

    In the post you responded to I was alluding to problem 2 whereas I think you've taken it as problem 1 that I was meaning.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'm not necessarily against using religious stories to explain morals to children, I was a Sunday school attendee myself, I just don't see the point when neither my wife or I are religious. You can get the same values from aesops fables without any of the other baggage.
    You actually don't. Classical Greek morality was very very different than our own (to which subject: Http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...t-christianity ) - Nazi Germany arguably resurrected it in part.

    I think science has found that religion makes for happier people, so I wouldn't worry overly at the fear angle. Even angry atheists like to identify religion as both happy opiate and crutch for the feeble minded and a terrifying cudgel to keep them in line, somehow at the same time - a bit like it is simultaneously dangerously seditious and a bastion of conservative conformism etc etc

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    I'd wait till we get the Devils side of things before making our minds up. So far only God has released 3 books. it's like Remi v Nikki.


    And why didn't an omnipotent God pre see the snake tempting Eve. Or stop the inbreeding. Or help Moses with directions in the desert. Bit of a $#@! God if you ask me. Maradona slotted in 2 v England and was on coke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    i'm not referring to that. In my previous I posited two areas I would find difficult as an atheist:

    1) the need for everything to resolve to magic, and while you can choose a more respectable word if you like, that is indeed what happens. Once more, it isn't God in the gaps stuff, and there is no 'don't know yet either'; we will never find away around it because the problem is clearly unanswerable: a godless universe either spontaneously created from nothing, or it's causal ingredients are eternal. Either way, in everyday language, 'magic'.

    2) the illusions and fabrications that we feel are necessary to make sense of and give meaning to the meaningless and senseless.

    In the post you responded to I was alluding to problem 2 whereas I think you've taken it as problem 1 that I was meaning.
    No, I'm saying you don't need illusions or fabrications to give meaning to anything. Its unnecessary, especially if it carries the baggage of something like organised religion. Where did the ingredients for the universe come from? Who knows, but proposing someone/something created it just raises the bigger question - who created them/it?

    As for science as a replacement for faith, there is plenty evidence to suggest a major explosion happened billions of years ago and that we live in an expanding universe as a result, so the Big Bang is the best "start point" we have for human understanding of the universe. What came before?... Well, its a mystery, sure, but I'm fine with that (and I'm pretty sure most astrophysicists that are currently theorising on the topic are too). No "magic", its just a case of waiting for the answer instead of making one up.

    I'm particularly perturbed by your deceleration that the question is unanswerable. Why? Just because we can't currently get our head around it? Imagine where we would be as a society if that attitude prevailed?

    And even if the question is unanswerable... I ask again, why is a supernatural creator any better than no answer at all?


    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    You actually don't. Classical Greek morality was very very different than our own (to which subject: Http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...t-christianity ) - Nazi Germany arguably resurrected it in part.


    I'm talking about simple morality tales largely communicated by talking animals. Its a slippery slope to facism though. Classic EGB! Love it
    Last edited by Two Headed Boy; 17-03-17 at 10:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    No, I'm saying you don't need illusions or fabrications to give meaning to anything. Its unnecessary, especially if it carries the baggage of something like organised religion. Where did the ingredients for the universe come from? Who knows, but proposing someone/something created it just raises the bigger question - who created them/it?

    As for science as a replacement for faith, there is plenty evidence to suggest a major explosion happened billions of years ago and that we live in an expanding universe as a result, so the Big Bang is the best "start point" we have for human understanding of the universe. What came before?... Well, its a mystery, sure, but I'm fine with that (and I'm pretty sure most astrophysicists that are currently theorising on the topic are too). No "magic", its just a case of waiting for the answer instead of making one up.

    I'm particularly perturbed by your deceleration that the question is unanswerable. Why? Just because we can't currently get our head around it? Imagine where we would be as a society if that attitude prevailed?

    And even if the question is unanswerable... I ask again, why is a supernatural creator any better than no answer at all?


    I'm talking about simple morality tales largely communicated by talking animals. Its a slippery slope to facism though. Classic EGB! Love it
    The Crisis of Cosmology.....A Marxist analysis-parts 1 ,2 and 3

    https://www.socialist.net/the-crisis...y-part-one.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Headed Boy View Post
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    No, I'm saying you don't need illusions or fabrications to give meaning to anything. Its unnecessary, especially if it carries the baggage of something like organised religion. Where did the ingredients for the universe come from? Who knows, but proposing someone/something created it just raises the bigger question - who created them/it?

    As for science as a replacement for faith, there is plenty evidence to suggest a major explosion happened billions of years ago and that we live in an expanding universe as a result, so the Big Bang is the best "start point" we have for human understanding of the universe. What came before?... Well, its a mystery, sure, but I'm fine with that (and I'm pretty sure most astrophysicists that are currently theorising on the topic are too). No "magic", its just a case of waiting for the answer instead of making one up.

    I'm particularly perturbed by your deceleration that the question is unanswerable. Why? Just because we can't currently get our head around it? Imagine where we would be as a society if that attitude prevailed?

    And even if the question is unanswerable... I ask again, why is a supernatural creator any better than no answer at all?
    this is kinda my point ...how wrapped up people are in illusions without recognising it.

    But before we get to that, let's come back to the other point which you seem to be struggling with or I am struggling to get over. I dare say what I am saying sounds shocking against the increasing scientism of our day ...scientism being the religionification of science and envisaging it as some kind of system well beyond its actual scope...it is however simple fact.

    If you disagree, please give me your answer to the following..

    Whatever primitive ingredients were component parts of the Big Bang, they are either eternal and uncreated, or popped into being out of nothing. If the Big Bang is one of many parallel and or sequential big bangs, the question just moves back. Either there was a first Big Bang or else reality has been banging and collapsing eternally.

    In short, reality either had a beginning or didn't have a beginning. If you think there is another possible state between having a beginning and not having a beginning, I'd love to hear it.

    If a Godless reality has a beginning, then however far back you go, however many levels of Russian doll you want to play with, the unavoidable end point is something popping into being from nothing.

    The only alternative to reality having a beginning, is it not having a beginning, in other words being eternal and thus uncaused.

    If you want to speculate how science may ever explain spontaneous instantiation of something from nothing, or alternatively the nature of something eternal and uncaused, then I'm all ears.

    It absolutely cannot, because there is nothing to explain. What can physics say about actual nothing ...no energy, do dimensions,, no portential, no matter, no anti matter ...let alone how something comes out of that total absence, a reaction without action, without cause, without component parts. Nor can physics talk about the eternal and uncaused, because what is there to say...there is no explanation because eternal and uncaused is another way of saying: it just is, there is no explanation.

    And even if physics could talk to these things, how would what it described differ from magic? You are left with things appearing out of nothing or being eternal. I restate the question ... what alternative to beginning or no beginning could science ever offer?

    This is long enough now, so let's keep the illusions till this is addressed as the two seem to be getting confused ...

    Best of luck with this because I think you are making claims no physicist ever would ! As before, this is not God of the gaps stuff...ironically you are going into that mode, positioning science as more than science is; as the ultimate answer to things beyond its scope, indeed where it breaks down and ends.

    I'm talking about simple morality tales largely communicated by talking animals. Its a slippery slope to facism though. Classic EGB! Love it
    you can be as sarcastic as you like but the point of the comparison was to illustrate the extent of the inaccuracy in your point I was responding to. In short, Aesops fables, cool though they are, are really not equivalent to Christian morality. Which is why Christian and post Christian society's are nothing like the society which produced Aesop. In fact they are so dramatically different, that if you are in the dark on this point, a useful modern comparator is indeed Nazi germany, which restore classical values including brutal eugenics, triumph of the strong and oppression of the weak etc.

    Again if you disagree , let's hear why with reasons; you might place faith im received wisdom but I'm evidence driven, and would like you to show me, not tell me I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
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    The Crisis of Cosmology.....A Marxist analysis-parts 1 ,2 and 3

    https://www.socialist.net/the-crisis...y-part-one.htm

    BIG G
    Interesting. My heads spinning after part one, but I commend it to the bold 2HB. I'm not sure if he will be aware of the vehemence with which Big Bang theory (coined by a catholic priest) was opposed by some atheist cosmologists, even as the evidence mounted - because they were led by belief and thus how they wanted the universe to be, rather than by science.

    Anyhoo looks like yer man is arguing for an eternal universe as one would expect for a Marxist. It is after all the marginally less impossible model from an atheist point of view, and thus a necessary pre-condition of the revolution!

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Interesting. My heads spinning after part one, but I commend it to the bold 2HB. I'm not sure if he will be aware of the vehemence with which Big Bang theory (coined by a catholic priest) was opposed by some atheist cosmologists, even as the evidence mounted - because they were led by belief and thus how they wanted the universe to be, rather than by science.

    Anyhoo looks like yer man is arguing for an eternal universe as one would expect for a Marxist. It is after all the marginally less impossible model from an atheist point of view, and thus a necessary pre-condition of the revolution!
    Nope he is not. Plough your way through parts 2 and 3 M and come back with comments amigo.

    BIG G


    Everyone's words of support are helping me thru this. I appreciate every comment, prayer and positive thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GORDONSMITH7 View Post
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    Nope he is not. Plough your way through parts 2 and 3 M and come back with comments amigo.

    BIG G
    Ma heid is now truly birled. The guy won me over with his accurate call-out of the madey-up stuff that seems to have become unanchored from positing a hypothesis and going after it. I have to say, referencing Engels as a guiding light on cosmology and positing dialectical materialism as a basis for assessing the claimed crises in the field, reminded me of the approach of intelligent design guys...

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    Holy $#@!. Tried to read that.......even if I was sober I'd be lost.
    Anyway, feck the hertz, cmon the hibees.
    Back to the spraffin thread for me
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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    this is kinda my point ...how wrapped up people are in illusions without recognising it.But before we get to that, let's come back to the other point which you seem to be struggling with or I am struggling to get over. I dare say what I am saying sounds shocking against the increasing scientism of our day ...scientism being the religionification of science and envisaging it as some kind of system well beyond its actual scope...it is however simple fact.
    EGB, you are attributing a point of view to me that I haven't expressed, so either this is a transparent strawman or you are projecting so hard you could show off power point presentations. So, for one last time I will recap what I have and have not said.

    I have said:

    - I don't know if reality had a beginning or is eternal- I don't think a satisfactory answer to this quandary exists, but I'm open to the possibility of it having an answer.
    - I don't think god, or any other faith based answer, is a satisfactory answer because it invokes a creator that is something from nothing in of itself.- There may be something beyond the realm of current human understanding going on.
    - The scientific approach (i.e. Not filling a gap in human understanding with a non evidence based leap of faith but rather working on finding a way to understand) is the correct approach when it comes to life's big mysteries. Who knows, this could even involve discovering god!

    What I have not said:

    - That something can come from nothing
    - That modern science has argued that something can come from nothing
    - That reality is eternal
    - That modern science has argued that reality is eternal
    - The Big Bang was the start of reality (it's just as far back as we've figured out so far)

    So... in summary. I don't know. Nobody knows. But, none the less, faith in a creator just raises more questions than it answers.Reality may have been created, it might be eternal, I think it is more likely that there is something else going on beyond the scope of our wee primate brains. I simply refuse to subscribe to your "its either this or its that and both are magic" way of thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    you can be as sarcastic as you like but the point of the comparison was to illustrate the extent of the inaccuracy in your point I was responding to. In short, Aesops fables, cool though they are, are really not equivalent to Christian morality. Which is why Christian and post Christian society's are nothing like the society which produced Aesop. In fact they are so dramatically different, that if you are in the dark on this point, a useful modern comparator is indeed Nazi germany, which restore classical values including brutal eugenics, triumph of the strong and oppression of the weak etc.Again if you disagree , let's hear why with reasons; you might place faith im received wisdom but I'm evidence driven, and would like you to show me, not tell me I'm wrong.
    The reason I was being sarcastic is because you have done here exactly what you did with the point above - Taken what I've actually said and turned it up to eleventy-billion with sprinkles to argue some other point entirely. What I said was that when teaching children about morals there are other texts you can use instead of the bible. I used Aesops fables as an example. What you seem to think I said was that Greek morality was a subsitite for Christian morality and that modern society could be based on it. Agian, this is either a strawman or you are arguing with some imagined cartoon liberal you think I represent.

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    I'm sorry to sound like an old saw. But imagining that science will one day find a middle ground between something not having a beginning (and therefore being eternal) and having a beginning (and without a creator that is an uncaused beginning) is something we can say now will not happen. That is because science deals with physical processes and causes which necessarily does not extend to the uncaused or the emergent from nothing.
    I'm genuinely interested in how you see a theoretical way around this.

    Absent that, you are indeed, by implication, left with something eternal and / unknowable. Sound familiar? As above, recourse to platitudes about waiting for discovery does not apply here - it's a god of the gaps approach in itself.

    Note that I am saying no more than you end up in an equivalent place, and challenging the incorrect assumption that you are left with anything more concrete. I believe that if we have access to enough data and the computing power to process it, then everything about the mechanics of the universe is hypothetically knowable (in other words im not a god in the gaps kinda guy). I don't believe that will ever be possible but I hope I am proved wrong and look forward to further discovery. But I don't share your misapprehension that science can ever get beyond its intrinsic boundaries.

    On Greece versus Christianity - I took it from your comment on Aesop that you held Aesop and Christianity to reflect similar moral lessons. I'm pointing out that they don't and indeed that this is reflected in the societies they are part of. Not sure how this is straw manning. If I misunderstood your original point, apologies, but if so I'm not sure how I was meant to have read it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    I'm sorry to sound like an old saw. But imagining that science will one day find a middle ground between something not having a beginning (and therefore being eternal) and having a beginning (and without a creator that is an uncaused beginning) is something we can say now will not happen. That is because science deals with physical processes and causes which necessarily does not extend to the uncaused or the emergent from nothing. I'm genuinely interested in how you see a theoretical way around this.Absent that, you are indeed, by implication, left with something eternal and / unknowable. Sound familiar? As above, recourse to platitudes about waiting for discovery does not apply here - it's a god of the gaps approach in itself.Note that I am saying no more than you end up in an equivalent place, and challenging the incorrect assumption that you are left with anything more concrete. I believe that if we have access to enough data and the computing power to process it, then everything about the mechanics of the universe is hypothetically knowable (in other words im not a god in the gaps kinda guy). I don't believe that will ever be possible but I hope I am proved wrong and look forward to further discovery. But I don't share your misapprehension that science can ever get beyond its intrinsic boundaries.
    My problem is with the absolutism in what you are saying. I don't think it's particularly scientific (for want of a better word) to state that anything has boundaries and is therefore unknowable.

    You say that science only deals with the physical, but we currently don't know if "nothing" even exists (beyond philosophical or semantic interpretations). "Nothing" has never been replicated - even empty space in a vacuum has weight and the effects of particles seemingly popping in and out of existence can be measured. So who is to say if anything actually exists outwith the physical and therefore measurable world? I guess this leans more towards the idea of eternal reality, but there is no proof of that currently so the door is open for any possibility (although I think a creator is unlikely for reasons previously stated).

    When you consider all the wonderful discoveries made in the last century, I think it is very naive to say something "will never happen" or is unknowable to the degree of certainty you have. That said, I think this is the key point we are never going to agree on, so we should probably stop before we repeat ourselves into eternity.

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