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    indyref 2unlimited

    no-no...theres no limits

    except sometime between autumn 2018 and spring 2019..

    I'm happy - understand others wont be.
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    So that's a Scottish Nationalist I respect Jim Sillars abstaining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    So that's a Scottish Nationalist I respect Jim Sillars abstaining.
    ...if it means re-entering the Eurozone, which it appears is more important to him. Fair enough position - but one you might have mentioned/clarified there, Kenny, especially as it's now not even remotely clear that this will be on the ballot paper.
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    So that's a Scottish Nationalist I respect Jim Sillars abstaining.
    I think Sillars could be a liability. I'm hoping Eddi Reader is also a nationalist who's anti EU too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    ...if it means re-entering the Eurozone, which it appears is more important to him. Fair enough position - but one you might have mentioned/clarified there, Kenny, especially as it's now not even remotely clear that this will be on the ballot paper.
    I respect you wanting Scottish Independence mate. There's no reason why we can't be. I've never bought into the nonsense that 'Scotland is too wee' to go it alone. I just think we are in the UK better to be together. I'm open minded though. There was no compelling argument for me on either side the last time. I expect similar again this time. Indeed that Nicola Sturgeon has stifled all debate within the SNP on the EU I can't see me as someone who voted for Brexit voting for Scottish Independence, to see a Euro fanatical Scottish Government knocking at the open door of the EU membership with all its criteria including monetary union. I think today she's made a huge strategic mistake for her objective. The timing is wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    I think Sillars could be a liability. I'm hoping Eddi Reader is also a nationalist who's anti EU too.
    He spoke more sense than most in the last campaign I thought especially on currency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    He spoke more sense than most in the last campaign I thought especially on currency.
    I agree, he did. But that was a couple of years ago and I think those years haven't been kind to him unfortunately, because I do admire him. I enjoyed his book alot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I respect you wanting Scottish Independence mate. There's no reason why we can't be. I've never bought into the nonsense that 'Scotland is too wee' to go it alone. I just think we are in the UK better to be together. I'm open minded though. There was no compelling argument for me on either side the last time. I expect similar again this time. Indeed that Nicola Sturgeon has stifled all debate within the SNP on the EU I can't see me as someone who voted for Brexit voting for Scottish Independence, to see a Euro fanatical Scottish Government knocking at the open door of the EU membership with all its criteria including monetary union. I think today she's made a huge strategic mistake for her objective. The timing is wrong.

    He spoke more sense than most in the last campaign I thought especially on currency.
    Well, firstly, Sillars is pretty much the dictionary definition of the "my way or not at all" brand of politician, which seems inconsistent with your cheerleading for pragmatism and strategic decisions to win elections within the Labour party. Sillars cannot tolerate any kind of compromise regarding his own opinions, though, which is fair enough, but, you know, a bit Corbyn, eh?

    Secondly, I'm just going to say this once more, for clarity. The independence movement did not, does not, and will not equate to the fcukin SNP, except among those No voters whose favoured position is to paint them as quasi-Stalinist totalitarians. How we organise ourselves is crucial this time around, which means including the SNP, and accepting that Sturgeon will be seen as de facto head whether we like it or not. However, i'd like to think that maybe we can get a fairer representation in the media this time around (har, har. As if.).

    Thirdly, I expect (or at least, I want) the option on the ballot paper to be the same again. I then expect (want) a general election as quick as is humanly possible, and then the leavers/remainers can put their cards on the table, and we can all decide - ie all of us living in this grand nation - which way we want to go. If the "stay out" argument is more compelling, then great. But the crucial factor is that Scotland will decide.

    Fourthly, and this is important, before you - or anyone else, for that matter - retort to that with any "yes, but WHAT WILL THE CURRENCY BE? WILL WE HAVE UNLIMITED IMMIGRATION?": you and the rest of your fellow leavers have all just proved yourself eminently prepared to vote on a binary issue with literally ZERO details, probabilities, or forecasts to hand, so I don't expect you to be coming the c**t asking for "economic forecasts" and the like. To be clear - I'm not denigrating your position on it, it's your right, and there's plenty to recommend that position. Just don't start greeting about "how much oil will there be?", as you've shown yourself quite willing to take a colossal, monumental leap in the dark.

    As am i, because I'd rather do something than continue on in this fcuked up ship we call the UK. Anyone who feels differently can vote nNo again, and the cards will fall where they may.

    But I repeat, again - do not start demanding that we tell you what the world will look like post-Indy, Kenny - you've fatally undermined your right to demand that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Having said all that, @Smurf - I hope I'm not coming across antagonistic. Quite the contrary; I hope this time around we can meet for a couple of pints and discuss it all in depth. I think we both know we're capable of doing so without it descending into a slagging match!
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I respect you wanting Scottish Independence mate. There's no reason why we can't be. I've never bought into the nonsense that 'Scotland is too wee' to go it alone. I just think we are in the UK better to be together. I'm open minded though. There was no compelling argument for me on either side the last time. I expect similar again this time. Indeed that Nicola Sturgeon has stifled all debate within the SNP on the EU I can't see me as someone who voted for Brexit voting for Scottish Independence, to see a Euro fanatical Scottish Government knocking at the open door of the EU membership with all its criteria including monetary union. I think today she's made a huge strategic mistake for her objective. The timing is wrong.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He spoke more sense than most in the last campaign I thought especially on currency.
    Not looking to start off on the wrong foot here, but I'm calling you out on this one. You said- repeatedly- that Scotland was too small ( tiny island) or words to that affect- plenty during the last epic. I mind because I called you out each time you did it and you deefied me each time.

    Anyway, I reckon you'll vote yes/leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Not looking to start off on the wrong foot here, but I'm calling you out on this one. You said- repeatedly- that Scotland was too small ( tiny island) or words to that affect- plenty during the last epic. I mind because I called you out each time you did it and you deefied me each time.

    Anyway, I reckon you'll vote yes/leave.
    Not true Mark. And I challenge you to put up any proof of that.

    What I consistently said was that IMO it's crazy to split up this wee island.

    That's completely different to what you are suggesting I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Not true Mark. And I challenge you to put up any proof of that.

    What I consistently said was that IMO it's crazy to split up this wee island.

    That's completely different to what you are suggesting I said.
    OK fine, I'll concede on that because I can't be arsed trolling thru those epic threads and also I take your word as true.

    Do you think that opinion is still true? ( even though you can't split an island and it's not actually tiny) but I get the gist of what you mean.

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    On a slightly oblique note, I have said often in the past couple of years that they'll still be teaching this decade or so in modern studies/history classes in 200 years time. I bet it even has a name by then: "the great realignment" or something. It does feel like a distinct period of upheaval.

    All that's missing is A REALLY BIG WAR...
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    On a slightly oblique note, I have said often in the past couple of years that they'll still be teaching this decade or so in modern studies/history classes in 200 years time. I bet it even has a name by then: "the great realignment" or something. It does feel like a distinct period of upheaval.

    All that's missing is A REALLY BIG WAR...
    did you miss the pitch invasion 21.05.2016?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    did you miss the pitch invasion 21.05.2016?
    That was exuberance not a war. Had we given them a war...

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    OK fine, I'll concede on that because I can't be arsed trolling thru those epic threads and also I take your word as true.

    Do you think that opinion is still true? ( even though you can't split an island and it's not actually tiny) but I get the gist of what you mean.
    I watched Marr yesterday where Gerry Adams said he felt it was "immoral" for Ireland to be divided. I agree with him and it did make me think about the UK etc.

    Ultimately it's all about people and their representation. I think the people on this small island (it is!) have much more that unites than divides. However, there is imbalance in the representation of that opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    On a slightly oblique note, I have said often in the past couple of years that they'll still be teaching this decade or so in modern studies/history classes in 200 years time. I bet it even has a name by then: "the great realignment" or something. It does feel like a distinct period of upheaval.

    All that's missing is A REALLY BIG WAR...
    Oh that's coming, I'm sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    I don't expect you to be coming the c**t asking for "economic forecasts" and the like.
    Presumably those who voted remain are allowed to ask for this?
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I watched Marr yesterday where Gerry Adams said he felt it was "immoral" for Ireland to be divided. I agree with him and it did make me think about the UK etc.

    Ultimately it's all about people and their representation. I think the people on this small island (it is!) have much more that unites than divides. However, there is imbalance in the representation of that opinion.
    But Ireland once was one country was it not? We've engineered it to be divided. That's an entirely different scenario and not relevant to this one bit.

    GB is in the top 10 islands based on size on planet earth btw, it's fairly muckle.

    I'm also not sure what things that do unite us would be stopped by Scotland becoming independent? I can't think of any of the good stuff that wouldn't continue? Genuinely, can you tell me some?

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    But Ireland once was one country was it not? We've engineered it to be divided. That's an entirely different scenario and not relevant to this one bit.

    GB is in the top 10 islands based on size on planet earth btw, it's fairly muckle.

    I'm also not sure what things that do unite us would be stopped by Scotland becoming independent? I can't think of any of the good stuff that wouldn't continue? Genuinely, can you tell me some?
    not sure what landsize has to do with it? or being surrounded by sea....if scotland were landlocked would the arguments essentially be any different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    not sure what landsize has to do with it? or being surrounded by sea....if scotland were landlocked would the arguments essentially be any different.
    It has nothing to do with, except unionists seem to focus on it being small/tiny, which is utter bollocks. And 'splitting this tiny island' is barking at the moon stuff. Who can split an island?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    I'm also not sure what things that do unite us would be stopped by Scotland becoming independent? I can't think of any of the good stuff that wouldn't continue? Genuinely, can you tell me some?
    For both sides an effective single market?

    For Scotland the current fiscal transfer? For EWNI the balance of payments assistance afforded by relatively strong Scottish exports?

    There's a more complex argument that some make that the union stunts the access to power of the most right-wing tories in England and the crazier hun types in Scotland, although I'm not sure I buy it, especially nowadays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    not sure what landsize has to do with it? or being surrounded by sea....if scotland were landlocked would the arguments essentially be any different.
    I agree, I find it on a par with "Scotland's a country so it should be a country" arguments, as though the eternal creator drew a line across the earth at Berwick. Having said that, divided islands do anecdotally seem to have issues. Not sure why.
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    Presumably those who voted remain are allowed to ask for this?
    Sure, at least in the sense that they haven't blatantly and explicitly undermined their case for doing so.

    But - and I'm sure you for one may perhaps remember this - I have consistently argued that the reduction of these debates, by and large, to the economy and nothing but the economy is a pointless exercise. Neither Scotland nor the UK will become a banana republic whichever way things go, and everybody knows it (barring the most rabid doomsayers). An independence referendum is not a budget, it's a choice deciding the parameters governing how and by whom those budgets will be made in the future. Furthermore, unless you've had your eyes tightly shut for the last ten years, you'll be forced to concede that "expert forecasting" regarding the outcome of economic conditions is about as reliable as a gypo in a tent rubbing a glass ball and telling you whether you're getting married or not. And finally, unless you're living in abject poverty, if you're the kind of person who is willing to decide the shape, outlook, and complexion of the country of your kids' future based on whether you'll be £48.50 better or worse off per month for the next two years, then you can fcuk off anyway - it's pointless talking to such people. As if anyone could ever guarantee even that information, anyway.

    For me, it is and always has been a fundamental decision, based on the conviction that this nation - not an "emergent nation", a historic nation - would be able to govern its future more coherently and inclusively by itself, with a properly proportional system of government, and hopefully a rejuvenated political scene when the now-moribund Labour party, and the fatally-tainted Tories can reinvent themselves as positive forces within a less binary (even unitary up here at the moment) political scene. I accept that things will probably tend towards the largely binary eventually, but its time we refreshed the establishment parties up here - they can still represent largely coherent electorates, but not while they're labouring under the burden of toeing party lines that have little or no relevance up here.

    Further, I just think it's time. You can feel the door being pushed. For what it's worth, I think an Indy Scotland can contribute far more effectively to a "British conversation" as an independent nation trying to address and take responsibility for its own undoubted problems, both social and economic, in its own way, rather than as a chippy but ultimately impotent voice in a distant and venal parliament which will only ever represent our interests and opinions in the instances when they accidentally coincide with its own. There's no reason whatsoever for antagonism and enmity in the future.
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    It has nothing to do with, except unionists seem to focus on it being small/tiny, which is utter bollocks. And 'splitting this tiny island' is barking at the moon stuff. Who can split an island?!
    i think barking at the moon is sadly the defacto position for many unionists.

    im not convinced the majority of no voters are open minded or will be...the noise that bettertogether makes is to keep them close minded.

    fair play to them - thats their position.

    only movement i can see is the 250K new voters, the EU residents scared last time out - i dont think thats enough really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    For both sides an effective single market?

    For Scotland the current fiscal transfer? For EWNI the balance of payments assistance afforded by relatively strong Scottish exports?

    There's a more complex argument that some make that the union stunts the access to power of the most right-wing tories in England and the crazier hun types in Scotland, although I'm not sure I buy it, especially nowadays.
    That single market is vital, would it be any different to whatever deal is in place between Denmark/Sweden & Norway? They used to be the same country way back too i think? I guess the same question could be applied to Croatia and Montenegro? I'm not so sure that's a problem more than one created to cause worry.

    The fiscal transfer I've never, ever understood. The UK sending more money to Scotland that it creates. What's the reasoning behind successive Westminster governments agreeing to this? What do they get out of it in return?

    you're 3rd paragraph is pretty much coming true I think?!

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    Why are we still persevering with Naismith though? and Fletcher IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power View Post
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    Why are we still persevering with Naismith though? and Fletcher IMHO.
    Because their stance on currency is so consistent
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    'scotland doesn't want a second ref'

    'a referendum is divisive'

    lib lab con all singing from the same hymn sheet all speaking to their own - early days but will this be the tact all the way through?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    I agree, I find it on a par with "Scotland's a country so it should be a country" arguments, as though the eternal creator drew a line across the earth at Berwick. Having said that, divided islands do anecdotally seem to have issues. Not sure why.
    Funnily enough you are right but it wasn't God that determined we were separate, was the plates moving aboot innit.



    "Both England, Wales and Scotland are in the southern hemisphere but are separated by the Iapetus Ocean. Scotland is attached to a plate comprised mainly of North America and Greenland. England and Wales are part of an arc-shaped microcontinent, perhaps comparable to modern Indonesia, along with Scandinavia and Newfoundland. England and Wales, and Scotland are both situated on continental margins and under marine waters for most of this period.

    The Iapetus Ocean is slowly closing and by the Silurian the two continental blocks collide producing the Caledonian orogeny. The Scottish Highlands and the Scandinavian Mountains are remnants of this mountain chain. The collision brings England & Wales and Scotland together."


    DISCOVERING FOSSILS | How Great Britain formed


    I have the "Sunday Mail's"- History of Scotland 52 week supplement (sometime in the 1970's) which I collected religiously as a child to thank for remembering this $#@!.

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    Timings all wrong...and deep down Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will know it. The problem is that they have put themselves in a corner after Brexit whereby they have to call for another referendum much earlier than they wanted to. A few years of Brexit would have been enough IMO to persuade many people in Scotland who voted no in 2014 to vote yes in the next referendum. As it stands just now there is still nowhere near enough support for scottish independence and I doubt there will be by late next year or early 2019. Sturgeon...under huge pressure from the 100,000 or so new SNP members, has been forced to go for indyref2 way, way before she wanted to. This is the last throw of the dice for her and the SNP. If May and the Westminster government agree to another vote (doubtful to say the least), then it's all or nothing. If Scotland again votes to stay in the Union then the party's over...literally.

    From my own point of view I voted no in 2014, but I am much more open to persuasion this time. I am not a nationalist at heart but Brexit has totally scunnered me and I really don't want to be part of the sort of country the UK seems to be heading towards. At the same time I need to be reassured about several things before I could even contemplate voting yes in this new ballot. Economics, how are we going to fund the NHS, pensions, currency etc...all will have to be explained and detailed to myself and an overall increasingly aging Scottish electorate for there to be any chance of me changing my vote from the last time.
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    @Greenmachine polls suggest it's 50/50 now, a much more solid base than the starting point of 28% last time round


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    @Smurf . You've unfriended me on fb over this ? It appears so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenmachine View Post
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    Timings all wrong...and deep down Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will know it. The problem is that they have put themselves in a corner after Brexit whereby they have to call for another referendum much earlier than they wanted to. A few years of Brexit would have been enough IMO to persuade many people in Scotland who voted no in 2014 to vote yes in the next referendum. As it stands just now there is still nowhere near enough support for scottish independence and I doubt there will be by late next year or early 2019. Sturgeon...under huge pressure from the 100,000 or so new SNP members, has been forced to go for indyref2 way, way before she wanted to. This is the last throw of the dice for her and the SNP. If May and the Westminster government agree to another vote (doubtful to say the least), then it's all or nothing. If Scotland again votes to stay in the Union then the party's over...literally.

    From my own point of view I voted no in 2014, but I am much more open to persuasion this time. I am not a nationalist at heart but Brexit has totally scunnered me and I really don't want to be part of the sort of country the UK seems to be heading towards. At the same time I need to be reassured about several things before I could even contemplate voting yes in this new ballot. Economics, how are we going to fund the NHS, pensions, currency etc...all will have to be explained and detailed to myself and an overall increasingly aging Scottish electorate for there to be any chance of me changing my vote from the last time.
    Think you're right about the timing. Cant see Sturgeon and ScotGovt wanting to hold this so soon, without a clear lead in the polls, but Westminster has more or less set the timescale for them, wondering if they had the stomach to pick up the gauntlet. Well they know the answer now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenmachine View Post
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    Timings all wrong...and deep down Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will know it. The problem is that they have put themselves in a corner after Brexit whereby they have to call for another referendum much earlier than they wanted to. A few years of Brexit would have been enough IMO to persuade many people in Scotland who voted no in 2014 to vote yes in the next referendum. As it stands just now there is still nowhere near enough support for scottish independence and I doubt there will be by late next year or early 2019. Sturgeon...under huge pressure from the 100,000 or so new SNP members, has been forced to go for indyref2 way, way before she wanted to. This is the last throw of the dice for her and the SNP. If May and the Westminster government agree to another vote (doubtful to say the least), then it's all or nothing. If Scotland again votes to stay in the Union then the party's over...literally.

    From my own point of view I voted no in 2014, but I am much more open to persuasion this time. I am not a nationalist at heart but Brexit has totally scunnered me and I really don't want to be part of the sort of country the UK seems to be heading towards. At the same time I need to be reassured about several things before I could even contemplate voting yes in this new ballot. Economics, how are we going to fund the NHS, pensions, currency etc...all will have to be explained and detailed to myself and an overall increasingly aging Scottish electorate for there to be any chance of me changing my vote from the last time.
    Do you seek the same assurances from the No camp as the Yes camp?

    Pensions and NHS funding are key ... bit differently from 2014 I think may and Co need to show some projections too... not least how brexit will be funded? It will be costing billions I reckon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    It has nothing to do with, except unionists seem to focus on it being small/tiny, which is utter bollocks. And 'splitting this tiny island' is barking at the moon stuff. Who can split an island?!
    In terms of land mass Scotland would be the 116th largest country in the world.

    In terms of population 119/120.

    Wikipedia says there's 233 (population chart) or 196 (land mass) countries.

    We're not big and we're not wee.

    ..................

    Plenty decent countries bigger and smaller and plenty basket cases too.

    I couldn't identify any that once became independent didn't celebrate the fact or sought repartition.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Sleeves View Post
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    Think you're right about the timing. Cant see Sturgeon and ScotGovt wanting to hold this so soon, without a clear lead in the polls, but Westminster has more or less set the timescale for them, wondering if they had the stomach to pick up the gauntlet. Well they know the answer now.

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    Sometimes you just have to go all in. It would seem to me that WM deliberately deafied any requests from Holyrood in the hope, maybe the belief that Sturgeon would back down. The chips are in now though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenmachine View Post
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    From my own point of view I voted no in 2014, but I am much more open to persuasion this time. I am not a nationalist at heart but Brexit has totally scunnered me and I really don't want to be part of the sort of country the UK seems to be heading towards.
    This is what it's about at the end of the day, GM.

    At the same time I need to be reassured about several things before I could even contemplate voting yes in this new ballot. Economics, how are we going to fund the NHS, pensions, currency etc...all will have to be explained and detailed to myself and an overall increasingly aging Scottish electorate for there to be any chance of me changing my vote from the last time.
    Because neither side can guarantee you any of this, no matter how many assurances are offered or statistics manipulated. One of the major differences from 2014 is that this time there's no "status quo" to vote for, either explicit or tacit.

    We are heading into uncharted waters either way. Time to choose who you want at the helm, basically. I hope you'll eventually vote to come with us, man, I really do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzahibs View Post
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    @Smurf . You've unfriended me on fb over this ? It appears so
    Not at all mate. No chance of me ever unfriending anyone over bloody political differences. I respect difference!

    And anyway, $#@! knows why I like you ya bam!

    I've no idea why but facebook have suspended my account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Not at all mate. No chance of me ever unfriending anyone over bloody political differences. I respect difference!

    And anyway, $#@! knows why I like you ya bam!

    I've no idea why but facebook have suspended my account.
    Didn't think it was your style but I could find you anymore , strange one

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forzahibs View Post
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    Didn't think it was your style but I could find you anymore , strange one
    No idea why they've suspended me and I can't get back onto it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    No idea why they've suspended me and I can't get back onto it!
    I've just had a look. I'm sure you were on my friends list but you've disappeared.

    They did the same to @hibbychubbs and refused to re-enable his account until he used his full proper name. I think he had to let them see his passport or something like that to prove who he was. I know that doesn't help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    I've just had a look. I'm sure you were on my friends list but you've disappeared.

    They did the same to @hibbychubbs and refused to re-enable his account until he used his full proper name. I think he had to let them see his passport or something like that to prove who he was. I know that doesn't help.
    Aye but I've deliberately deleted you.. Joking! I've sent them a pic of my driving license but I was using my proper name. Well Kenny not Kenneth. I think the Scottish Government that's riddled with control freakery has colluded with MI5 to have a pro union account deleted.

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    So with the tory divisive economically uncertain project about to start. May does want another.

    Snp don't have a mandate apparently....according to unionists

    What would give them a mandate? The 3 remining MPS? Is it possible to have more than a majority of nationalists at Holywood?

    Or are we waiting for a Sun poll...
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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    Sure, at least in the sense that they haven't blatantly and explicitly undermined their case for doing so.

    But - and I'm sure you for one may perhaps remember this - I have consistently argued that the reduction of these debates, by and large, to the economy and nothing but the economy is a pointless exercise. Neither Scotland nor the UK will become a banana republic whichever way things go, and everybody knows it (barring the most rabid doomsayers). An independence referendum is not a budget, it's a choice deciding the parameters governing how and by whom those budgets will be made in the future. Furthermore, unless you've had your eyes tightly shut for the last ten years, you'll be forced to concede that "expert forecasting" regarding the outcome of economic conditions is about as reliable as a gypo in a tent rubbing a glass ball and telling you whether you're getting married or not. And finally, unless you're living in abject poverty, if you're the kind of person who is willing to decide the shape, outlook, and complexion of the country of your kids' future based on whether you'll be £48.50 better or worse off per month for the next two years, then you can fcuk off anyway - it's pointless talking to such people. As if anyone could ever guarantee even that information, anyway.

    For me, it is and always has been a fundamental decision, based on the conviction that this nation - not an "emergent nation", a historic nation - would be able to govern its future more coherently and inclusively by itself, with a properly proportional system of government, and hopefully a rejuvenated political scene when the now-moribund Labour party, and the fatally-tainted Tories can reinvent themselves as positive forces within a less binary (even unitary up here at the moment) political scene. I accept that things will probably tend towards the largely binary eventually, but its time we refreshed the establishment parties up here - they can still represent largely coherent electorates, but not while they're labouring under the burden of toeing party lines that have little or no relevance up here.

    Further, I just think it's time. You can feel the door being pushed. For what it's worth, I think an Indy Scotland can contribute far more effectively to a "British conversation" as an independent nation trying to address and take responsibility for its own undoubted problems, both social and economic, in its own way, rather than as a chippy but ultimately impotent voice in a distant and venal parliament which will only ever represent our interests and opinions in the instances when they accidentally coincide with its own. There's no reason whatsoever for antagonism and enmity in the future.
    Good post, and entirely coherent. I hope the Leave/Yes campaign take a leaf from your book.

    In fairness to them last time everything indicated that people would vote with their pockets so it wasn't tactically a bad call to try to massage the figures. Although strategically I think it meant they were in an argument they couldn't really win, so was ultimately a mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    That single market is vital, would it be any different to whatever deal is in place between Denmark/Sweden & Norway? They used to be the same country way back too i think? I guess the same question could be applied to Croatia and Montenegro? I'm not so sure that's a problem more than one created to cause worry.
    If Scotland is to be in the EU I assume it won't be able to have a single market with rUK. Because that's a backdoor to free trade with the EU for rUK.

    The fiscal transfer I've never, ever understood. The UK sending more money to Scotland that it creates. What's the reasoning behind successive Westminster governments agreeing to this? What do they get out of it in return?
    Because they see Scotland as part of the same country - the UK. In the same way more money is sent to Cornwall than it creates. iScotland would send more money to Glasgow than Glasgow will create but (presumably) wouldn't cut it adrift.

    It seems to me a miserable framing of the argument to cast everything in terms of pounds and pence (or euros and cents).

    you're 3rd paragraph is pretty much coming true I think?!
    The wrong sort of people certainly have the whip hand in England, at least at the moment. Let's hope their counterparts in Scotland don't gain a similar boost from independence.
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    Because they see Scotland as part of the same country - the UK. In the same way more money is sent to Cornwall than it creates. iScotland would send more money to Glasgow than Glasgow will create but (presumably) wouldn't cut it adrift.

    It seems to me a miserable framing of the argument to cast everything in terms of pounds and pence (or euros and cents).


    You started it! But I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    You started it! But I agree.
    Fair enough, I totally didn't mean you thought exclusively that way! Just that "why does England send money to Scotland" seems to me the same as "why does Edinburgh send money to Glasgow". It's just not how most people think, other than - I suppose - those who see a big difference between England and Scotland.

    There are certainly a growing number down here who feel that way, and grumble about 'subsidising the bloody jocks' and other such nonsense. But most people just take the UK as a given and would no more see the (current) 'subsidy' of Scotland as a 'transfer' than they would with Cornwall or the Forest of Dean, say.
    so what do I know

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    I'd say the first 24 hours of media coverage gives a massive victory to Yes impetus. There's nobody that can speak up for the union that Scottish folk can or will listen to. Incredible to think the only potential hope is the impressive leader of the Scottish Tories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I'd say the first 24 hours of media coverage gives a massive victory to Yes impetus. There's nobody that can speak up for the union that Scottish folk can or will listen to. Incredible to think the only potential hope is the impressive leader of the Scottish Tories.


    Davidson is good with sound bites but she's been found out over brexit. Two faced and unashamedly looking to Westminster for a job

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I'd say the first 24 hours of media coverage gives a massive victory to Yes impetus. There's nobody that can speak up for the union that Scottish folk can or will listen to. Incredible to think the only potential hope is the impressive leader of the Scottish Tories.
    not true - they aren't saying anything worth listening too (to win winable votes) - not even making sound towards it....but they are saying what their solid core of unwavering supporters want to hear.

    you wouldn't say the Yes/Leave/nationalists have said much to win over the votes they need either.
    follow the programme archive on twitter: http://twitter.com/hibsbollah

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    not true - they aren't saying anything worth listening too (to win winable votes) - not even making sound towards it....but they are saying what their solid core of unwavering supporters want to hear.

    you wouldn't say the Yes/Leave/nationalists have said much to win over the votes they need either.
    Eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    not true - they aren't saying anything worth listening too (to win winable votes) - not even making sound towards it....but they are saying what their solid core of unwavering supporters want to hear.

    you wouldn't say the Yes/Leave/nationalists have said much to win over the votes they need either.
    Can you get a RSI from over use of the word divisive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Eh?
    you said there is nobody folk can or will listen to....

    i said it what they are saying not who they are

    and it swings both ways

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Can you get a RSI from over use of the word divisive?
    exactly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
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    you said there is nobody folk can or will listen to....

    i said it what they are saying not who they are

    and it swings both ways

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    exactly.
    I said the Yes campaign got off on the front foot. You said not true...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I said the Yes campaign got off on the front foot. You said not true...
    in what way? i didn't hear the sound economic plan to win folk over or the currency or the borders or the EU membership.

    I heard some sound bites about choice, progressiveness and a tory govt till 2030.
    follow the programme archive on twitter: http://twitter.com/hibsbollah

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