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    Labour

    Another sore un in the sleaford by election, losing more vote share than the tories and kippers as the lib dems are the big gainers. After this and the last one where zac goldsmith got hoofed, it looks like the lib dems are joining the queue of those feasting on labour's carcass.

    If (in England, in Scotland SNP gets all of these) UKIP is the party of the worker, the greens are the party of the trust-fund lefty and now the lib dems are picking up the global capitalist / left liberal remain vote....who on Earth do labour have left to aim for?

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    They are finished. Possibly were anyway but under the 'leadership' of Corbyn it's confirmed.

    Things are so bad we have a Foreign Secretary speaking the truth but contradicted by the Prime Minister for not speaking on behalf of the government but only in a personal capacity.... WTF?

    However, with no opposition they can get away with it.

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    When i posted the OP I hadn't appreciated they finished ahead of both UKIP and libdems last time. How long can they keep kidding themselves?

    It looks like the libdems are going to harvest angry remainers. This is another example of labour's dilemma - go after the same vote and lose further working class votes to UKIP, go after the latter and lose more of the middle class left they are now principally directed at.

    The question remains; who do they represent and are their enough of those people to give them power. At the moment they are trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It seems obvious that English politics needs to realign around a Tory party, a middle class left liberal party - which could move some of the Tory constituency over - and a workers party like UKIP. A Green Party can keep the dreamers happy. What the second option should be is the trick - some kind of merger between the libdems and the blairite Labour Party seems the move to make but who will make it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    When i posted the OP I hadn't appreciated they finished ahead of both UKIP and libdems last time. How long can they keep kidding themselves?

    It looks like the libdems are going to harvest angry remainers. This is another example of labour's dilemma - go after the same vote and lose further working class votes to UKIP, go after the latter and lose more of the middle class left they are now principally directed at.

    The question remains; who do they represent and are their enough of those people to give them power. At the moment they are trying to reconcile the irreconcilable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    It seems obvious that English politics needs to realign around a Tory party, a middle class left liberal party - which could move some of the Tory constituency over - and a workers party like UKIP. A Green Party can keep the dreamers happy. What the second option should be is the trick - some kind of merger between the libdems and the blairite Labour Party seems the move to make but who will make it...
    they (the leftish parties) should be looking at an electoral pact whereby only one of labour, libdem or green stand in any one constituency at the next election (which they should be pushing v hard for), they should pull their resources and agree common ground (such as the need for electoral reform, creation of national investment bank etc). personally I think the SNP and Plaid should also consider joining this coalition more loosely if constitutional change could be agreed that would result in a fully federal UK - all but defence and central bank. FTP has broken politics in this country, we have a tory party in power on a 28% mandate with an entirely different policy agenda than the manifesto they stood on. The left such as it is should exploit the shortcomings of the system to effect change before its too late and we move ever further towards an authoritarian, brutal and racist discourse.
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    I know very little of politics but a blind man can see it is no good. Trying to make sense of what is happening so please feel free to comment on what I write. Firstly Corbyn put himself up for re-election and managed to get back in with little trouble. This makes me assume a coule of things. The main branch of the party believe in his policies and ideas, but are failing to get the message across to the electorate....or the electorate are in disagreement with his policies. Failing that and the public may believe in the policies, but believe others dont and will not vote labour so their choosing other parties.

    Now here is the thing, perhaps his policies are good, but in what is a capitalist, consumerist country, they are not popular.

    I have seen one video of him talking and he came across rather well. This is a contrast to his normal demeanour where he shirks publicity and rarely has a smile for the press. Now a smiling face and grand demeanour might not make you a brilliant politician, but it certainly is a must if you want to gather some popularity. When I look at him it reminds me of a cross between Charlie the tramp (AKA guy who lived for years in a hut in allotments off West Pilton Street during the 1970's) and David Bellamy, minus David's charisma.

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    @gun ainm - for a long time we've been living under growing authoritarianism and a brutalism that benefits only the liberal globalists. That's one reason we are where we are.

    Your proposed coalition of the middle classes is in some ways what I was suggesting in respect of a new liberal party. But I think that without sorting out the gaping contradictions and making a clean break, it is doomed to fail. Take labour off the ballot at seats and UKIP will gain. Take libdems off and tories will gain. Take greens off and labour will gain...a tiny vote share.

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    I'm not sure it's that sair!

    Since it was formed the seat has never been anything other than staunch tory.

    At the election it had a 20 odd thousand majority, this time round 10 plus. It's not beyond the realms of reality the rest don't give a $#@! where their cross goes as it would never get close to making a difference. Does it make a difference where your protest vote goes? Nut!

    I know the Libdems got the last by election nearby from a firm Tory majority but the sitting MP was a real pompous Brexiteer tosser called the by election to rebel against the Heathrow thing forgetting everyone in the constituency voted to remain! What a fecking idiot!!

    Incidentally but still on Labour did anyone see Kezia Dugdale has called for the Act of Union 'to be updated for the 21st century'?

    I got quite excited when I saw the headline. Even more so that all I needed to know could fit in one side of A4. I was going to start a new thread but ... it was the the same auld pish with the usual suspects saying how wonderful it was.

    Kez, you're just not getting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    @gun ainm - for a long time we've been living under growing authoritarianism and a brutalism that benefits only the liberal globalists. That's one reason we are where we are.

    Your proposed coalition of the middle classes is in some ways what I was suggesting in respect of a new liberal party. But I think that without sorting out the gaping contradictions and making a clean break, it is doomed to fail. Take labour off the ballot at seats and UKIP will gain. Take libdems off and tories will gain. Take greens off and labour will gain...a tiny vote share.
    middle class has feck all to do with it M, behave yourself.

    if you didn't troll so exhaustively maybe there'd be room for more nuanced debate on here.

    its deeply patronising to suggest the working class are UKIP or UKIP are working class. truth is all the parties have voters from across the social spectrum. We have just agreed that UKIP are a racist party are you saying the working class is racist?

    last election breakdown
    45% of the middle class vote tory, 26% labour, 12% LD, 8% UKIP and 4% green (AB social grades)
    41% working class vote labour, 27% tory, 5% LD, 17% UKIP and 3% green (DE social grades)

    the C1&2 classes are more evenly split

    so you are more likely to vote labour and ukip if you are DE while ABs are more likely to vote tory or LD - greens get 3-4% across all socila grades.

    17% of working class vote UKIP = 83% who dont.
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I know the Libdems got the last by election nearby from a firm Tory majority but the sitting MP was a real pompous Brexiteer tosser called the by election to rebel against the Heathrow thing forgetting everyone in the constituency voted to remain! What a fecking idiot!!
    Maybe so but personally i'd congratulate him for standing by his word to his constituents if the government did a u-turn on Heathrow.

    Does that make him a "Fecking idiot"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    middle class has feck all to do with it M, behave yourself.

    if you didn't troll so exhaustively maybe there'd be room for more nuanced debate on here.
    its not trolling it is central to labour's dilemma. You are not alone in wishing to ignore that, which is why they are paralysed and sinking beneath the waves.

    its deeply patronising to suggest the working class are UKIP or UKIP are working class. truth is all the parties have voters from across the social spectrum. We have just agreed that UKIP are a racist party are you saying the working class is racist?
    we didn't agree that - we agreed that if the worst interpretation of farage's comments became policy that would be a racist policy. Even that would not make all UKIP voters racist any more than all labour voters are anti semites, anti westerners, pc authoritarians etc

    Did you see the report I appended to the thread which shows that rather than being preoccupied with what they're supposed to be - hate crime etc - British muslims are in fact far more concerned with...immigration? If it wasn't for exploitation of identity politics on all sides, immigrant labour interests are closer to those of the UKIP voting working class than the middle class left parties pro global capital position.

    last election breakdown
    45% of the middle class vote tory, 26% labour, 12% LD, 8% UKIP and 4% green (AB social grades)
    41% working class vote labour, 27% tory, 5% LD, 17% UKIP and 3% green (DE social grades)

    the C1&2 classes are more evenly split
    can you supply source for those please and I'll get back to you.

    so you are more likely to vote labour and ukip if you are DE while ABs are more likely to vote tory or LD - greens get 3-4% across all socila grades.

    17% of working class vote UKIP = 83% who dont.
    oops -
    Quoted in wrong place but source would be helpful ta

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    Watched something on CH4 news yesterday about Momentum going radge and causing all sorts of $#@!, with the idea of breaking away and starting their own party.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    can you supply source for those please and I'll get back to you.
    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...d-in-2015.aspx

    note %ages are based on turnout not total pop - 57% of DE voted for example so only (17 x 0.57) 9.7% of the working class vote UKIP
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    working class does not equal 'left behind' older white males in the DE category who have seen their relative privilege diminish and are scapegoating - when did the term become synonymous with that? we need to be really careful in allowing the media and others to characterise 'the working class' as being only about that very small but vociferous group in society. Doing so works against addressing 'real' working class issues.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Maybe so but personally i'd congratulate him for standing by his word to his constituents if the government did a u-turn on Heathrow.

    Does that make him a "Fecking idiot"?
    maybe not but his racist politics and dog whistle campaign in the London mayoral election certainly does make him that
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    You Gov poll tomorrow in The Times. Tories on 42% Labour on 25%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    working class does not equal 'left behind' older white males in the DE category who have seen their relative privilege diminish and are scapegoating - when did the term become synonymous with that? we need to be really careful in allowing the media and others to characterise 'the working class' as being only about that very small but vociferous group in society. Doing so works against addressing 'real' working class issues.

    - - - Updated - - -



    maybe not but his racist politics and dog whistle campaign in the London mayoral election certainly does make him that
    working class is only synonymous with 'left behind white males' among a liberal elite who aim to divide the former and whose dominance of the establishment is so comprehensive that permutations of old, white and male are seen as an acceptable put down rather than rank prejudice.

    What is the case is that divisive racial / identity politics have given minority workers reasons to vote (say labour or democrat in the US) other than their economic interest or personal values. The white working class are excluded from this (the gender stereotyping is pretty much just made up to buttress acceptable prejudices) which enables an alternative identity politics to be directed at them.

    The large survey of British muslims I quoted on the other thread unsurprisingly paints a picture of interests and concerns similar to other workers, but divide and rule has been very successful.

    A UKIP style - which is what I should have said previously - workers party within a realigned political landscape could appeal across communities if it stepped outside the identity narratives promoted by the left. Sadly these are so embdeed and so potent that this is unlikely.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchp...d-in-2015.aspx

    note %ages are based on turnout not total pop - 57% of DE voted for example so only (17 x 0.57) 9.7% of the working class vote UKIP
    Depend as how you present your stats R;

    An absolute majority of c2 voted for tories plus UKIP. For DE it was 44% vs combined labour, LD, greens at 47%.

    For UKIP alone, despite an unprecedented - still, even with the way jez has been treated - propaganda campaign against them, every vote guaranteed not to return a win bar the seat farage stood for, and all the difficulties new parties face, they got 59% as many c2 votes as labour and 34% DE. That's before adjusting for Scotland where they get nowt.

    That is more than enough to make labour unelectable and allying with LD and greens is not going after these votes.

    UKIP is also the party with by far the greatest working class demographic support according to deep academic study. (Proportion of voters rather than absolute number of voters)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    Maybe so but personally i'd congratulate him for standing by his word to his constituents if the government did a u-turn on Heathrow.

    Does that make him a "Fecking idiot"?
    He didn't have to say it in the first place.

    His seat was a safe Tory seat Heathrow or not, now it's a Libdem seat on the back of Brexit. He miscalculated just about everything there was to miscalculate.

    If he didn't see that coming aye he's a fecking idiot.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    He didn't have to say it in the first place.

    His seat was a safe Tory seat Heathrow or not, now it's a Libdem seat on the back of Brexit. He miscalculated just about everything there was to miscalculate.

    If he didn't see that coming aye he's a fecking idiot.
    I think he took what few other politicians take and that's a position of principle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    working class is only synonymous with 'left behind white males' among a liberal elite who aim to divide the former and whose dominance of the establishment is so comprehensive that permutations of old, white and male are seen as an acceptable put down rather than rank prejudice.
    so why do you perpetually equate the two and characterise UKIP as the bastion of the working class against the middle class in labour? its desperate stuff M -doctrinal no wonder post truth is word of the year.

    What is the case is that divisive racial / identity politics have given minority workers reasons to vote (say labour or democrat in the US) other than their economic interest or personal values. The white working class are excluded from this (the gender stereotyping is pretty much just made up to buttress acceptable prejudices) which enables an alternative identity politics to be directed at them.
    now who is being condescending and elitist? your argument appears to be that minority workers vote labour because they have been brainwashed into doing so by the elite? maybe they are no genetically programmed to think for themselves?

    btw gender and especially age are key factors in the UKIP vote amongst DE demographic, as they were in Austrian fascist votes recently and as they were amongst the Trump voters.

    The large survey of British muslims I quoted on the other thread unsurprisingly paints a picture of interests and concerns similar to other workers, but divide and rule has been very successful.
    i haven't looked at that, but you could equally say that in being castigated as mere domiciled immigrants by the British press, UKIP and Tories that they would say that if only for reasons of self preservation. I assume your stats don't capture the nuance so your inference is only that?

    A UKIP style - which is what I should have said previously - workers party within a realigned political landscape could appeal across communities if it stepped outside the identity narratives promoted by the left. Sadly these are so embdeed and so potent that this is unlikely.
    the right does identity politics with the best of them. the idea of a non racist UKIP is a bit of an oxymoron

    Depend as how you present your stats R;

    An absolute majority of c2 voted for tories plus UKIP. For DE it was 44% vs combined labour, LD, greens at 47%.
    you're grasping at straws M it is clear that your characterisation of labour and green voters as middle class doesn't stand up to any analysis.

    For UKIP alone, despite an unprecedented - still, even with the way jez has been treated - propaganda campaign against them, every vote guaranteed not to return a win bar the seat farage stood for, and all the difficulties new parties face, they got 59% as many c2 votes as labour and 34% DE. That's before adjusting for Scotland where they get nowt.
    UKIP have been given an unprecedented degree of coverage in relation to their electoral position, the media has done them a lot of favours as have the established parties in allowing inequality to spiral. anyway no-one is saying that they dont have a base support its just not a party of the working class (i.e. the vast majority of the working class - 91% of them - dont vote UKIP.

    That is more than enough to make labour unelectable and allying with LD and greens is not going after these votes.
    that can change, the shift to tories in the last GE was because middle class voter turnout went up and former Libdem votes in that demographic lumped on to Cameron. the labour share held up although working class turnout dropped. a shift to the right under May was always going to see a LibDem resurgence amongst the ABs of Richmond and the like. the left need to concentrate on the people who dont currently vote rather than trying to reclaim ground represented in that swing. IMO a particular focus on younger potential voters would be worthwhile.

    UKIP is also the party with by far the greatest working class demographic support according to deep academic study. (Proportion of voters rather than absolute number of voters)
    que? IPSOS/MORI show only 17% of the working class who vote support UKIP (for every 2 ukip voters in DE there are 5 labour ones) 44% of DEs dont vote so we have no idea what they think about UKIP but presumably they are not enthused by them (or anyone else for that matter, other than the 0.01% of those who got run over by a bus on their way to a polling station). what deep academic study? would they be the elitist university professors that are out of touch with da steetz?
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    so why do you perpetually equate the two and characterise UKIP as the bastion of the working class against the middle class in labour? its desperate stuff M -doctrinal no wonder post truth is word of the year.
    the whole post truth thing is a chuckle given the magical thinking that characterised the recent liberal era.

    I'm not sure what you are on about here; UKIP have made labour unelectable by drawing away swathes of the historical working class labour vote. This is because labour no longer represent their traditional interests and increasingly rely on identity politics to divide and capture some members of the working class on other bases. This is manifestly factually true - with the qualification I am talking about England, in Scotland the SNP have done this far more comprehensively with an inclusive pitch that couldn't be more starkly contrasted with identity politics.

    You have introduced left behind white males - a gobbet of post truth while we're on the subject - and now seem to be insinuating it was my argument. It wasn't and isn't. I have noted the poisonous role of identity politics and pointed out the gender dimension is simply invented. Otherwise I am talking about a) what is happening - which for the original post truthers is always difficult to separate from what should be happening and b) why, and how a realignment of British politics might serve the interests out there


    now who is being condescending and elitist? your argument appears to be that minority workers vote labour because they have been brainwashed into doing so by the elite? maybe they are no genetically programmed to think for themselves?
    return to the realm of truth old boy. I am saying no such thing; unless you are assuming voting intentions and interests have no connection - in which case all political discussion is moot - my point is unremarkable to the point of being mundane. If you leave all the identity bollocks aside, working class voters have similar economic and social interests. but alas we cannot leave said bollocks aside and others are being divided by identity politics. It's not a good thing. Then again only certain labour sorts ever believed people vote solely on economic interest.

    btw gender and especially age are key factors in the UKIP vote amongst DE demographic, as they were in Austrian fascist votes recently and as they were amongst the Trump voters.
    14% of males voters voted UKIP, 12% of female. The majority of white American women voted for trump.

    Age is a factor, but it's not clear to me how being old is a bad thing, nor how it reflects poorly on political judgement not least versus the inexperience of youth.

    i haven't looked at that, but you could equally say that in being castigated as mere domiciled immigrants by the British press, UKIP and Tories that they would say that if only for reasons of self preservation. I assume your stats don't capture the nuance so your inference is only that?
    bravura example of post truth in action; pull a preferred theory out of your imagination and then start inferring things about the facts while inferring that others are doing the inferring. It's a lengthy and detailed report - worth a look.

    the right does identity politics with the best of them. the idea of a non racist UKIP is a bit of an oxymoron
    only in post truth world where ideological paradigms take precedence over reality. The right are certainly prospering from identity politics though - the inevitable by product of left wing identity politics dividing and ruling for decadss.

    you're grasping at straws M it is clear that your characterisation of labour and green voters as middle class doesn't stand up to any analysis.
    except it does. I have not said that working class people don't vote for labour, I have said that swathes of them have deserted it making it unelectable. And courting the lib dems and greens in a pact is not responding to that trend, it's going in the other direction and reinforcing the gentrification of the Labour Party which is increasing under corbs. You've demonstrated a fondness for speculation above - UKIP got 40% the votes of labour last time out. What do you think would have happened in England with pr and a neutral media? I think it's very possible they'd be the second largest party by now, capitalising on pr making change believable which was central to the SNPs obliteration of labour.


    UKIP have been given an unprecedented degree of coverage in relation to their electoral position, the media has done them a lot of favours as have the established parties in allowing inequality to spiral. anyway no-one is saying that they dont have a base support its just not a party of the working class (i.e. the vast majority of the working class - 91% of them - dont vote UKIP.
    your use of stats is really quite novel. Apply the same formula to labour and tell me what you arrive at.

    A more salient reflection on what the stats give us is in my previous post; huge swathes of the working class have simply been disenfranchised and don't vote. If we had pr...as above, place your bets.

    that can change, the shift to tories in the last GE was because middle class voter turnout went up and former Libdem votes in that demographic lumped on to Cameron. the labour share held up although working class turnout dropped. a shift to the right under May was always going to see a LibDem resurgence amongst the ABs of Richmond and the like. the left need to concentrate on the people who dont currently vote rather than trying to reclaim ground represented in that swing. IMO a particular focus on younger potential voters would be worthwhile.
    first but I agree with but it's why your coalition is unlikely to work in the opposing directions labour need. The liberal middle classes will happily move between a liberal Labour Party, liberal Tory party and liberal libdems party. That's been amply demonstrated by the last 20 years. The less well off are going in the opposite direction. The people who don't vote are largely put off by the same politics that underpins this. They're not going to be won over by a Labour Party that doesn't represent their interests.

    que? IPSOS/MORI show only 17% of the working class who vote support UKIP (for every 2 ukip voters in DE there are 5 labour ones) 44% of DEs dont vote so we have no idea what they think about UKIP but presumably they are not enthused by them (or anyone else for that matter, other than the 0.01% of those who got run over by a bus on their way to a polling station). what deep academic study? would they be the elitist university professors that are out of touch with da steetz?
    your repeated use of voter stats against a population who have stopped voting during the years of liberal hegemony i have dealt with above. Meanwhile you state yourself that UKIP got 40% of actual de voters vs labour. With the asymmetry of power, establishment support and starting position that is a remarkable statistic and not in ways favourable to labour.

    I am referring to the work of left wing academics Goodwin and ford - but they deal in numbers not post truth paradigms. Worth a look.


    When all is done; labour supporters can continue to embrace magical thinking and plucking theses out of thin air. But the numbers don't lie and if UKIP don't implode (very possible) labour are finished .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I think he took what few other politicians take and that's a position of principle.
    Shame his principles didn't extend to paying taxes like the rest of us.
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I think he took what few other politicians take and that's a position of principle.
    He was a tory MP. Where exactly do principles fit?
    Game's rigged, why bother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Shame his principles didn't extend to paying taxes like the rest of us.
    I don't particularly like him so I'm not particularly interested in defending him. His London campaign was despicable in parts. However, on tax avoidance any different from many others including many Scottish politicians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I think he took what few other politicians take and that's a position of principle.
    Bit of a stretch, no? That kant doesn't know the meaning of the word 'principle'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I don't particularly like him so I'm not particularly interested in defending him. His London campaign was despicable in parts. However, on tax avoidance any different from many others including many Scottish politicians?
    So essentially, aside from a badly calculated, self-aggrandising stance on a feckin runway, "just like all the others".

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    The majority of white American women voted for trump.
    Behind Trump's victory: Divisions by race, gender and education | Pew Research Center

    by nothing like the margin that white men did - hence gender being a key driver. Great job knocking down strawmen wherever you find them though
    Guardian-knitting muesli-reading No Logo "baa-baa green sheep" student PC thought police

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    My prediction is that in time the moderate wing of the Labour Party will split from the main party and merge with the Liberal Democrats forming a strong centre ground opposition to the Tories. Corbyn and his mob will carry on as the official Labour Party until their inevitable defeat and disintegration in 2020.
    "I can't stress enough how important it is to be in possession of the football - it is better to be the matador rather than the bull"

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    Yes Sleaford is a poor result for Labour; but on the plus side the Tories' majority was reduced by over 6000.

    The traditions of the Labour Party, starting from the times of the great Keir Hardie, are strong and it's going to take a lot more than this to affect that.

    It's time for the Blairites and the PLP to stop self-destructing the party.

    Let's face it; Sleaford is a typical rural area, with a long tradition of powerful landowners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FTJT View Post
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    Behind Trump's victory: Divisions by race, gender and education | Pew Research Center

    by nothing like the margin that white men did - hence gender being a key driver. Great job knocking down strawmen wherever you find them though
    More white men may have voted for Trump than white women, but as a majority of the latter did (and 82 white women voted for him for every 100 white men) it's simply factually untrue that the trump phenomena is simply down to white males - just another piece of post truth nonsense, and an example of liberal casual misogyny that disappears women as soon as they stray from the viewpoints permitted to them. As for setting up straw men, I responded directly to a point made by gun ainm.

    What are you on about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jock3 View Post
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    Yes Sleaford is a poor result for Labour; but on the plus side the Tories' majority was reduced by over 6000.

    The traditions of the Labour Party, starting from the times of the great Keir Hardie, are strong and it's going to take a lot more than this to affect that.

    It's time for the Blairites and the PLP to stop self-destructing the party.

    Let's face it; Sleaford is a typical rural area, with a long tradition of powerful landowners.
    And a long, more recent, and rather more relevant history of labour finishing second rather than fourth.

    How many votes do you think the powerful landowner demographic represent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    they (the leftish parties) should be looking at an electoral pact whereby only one of labour, libdem or green stand in any one constituency at the next election (which they should be pushing v hard for), they should pull their resources and agree common ground (such as the need for electoral reform, creation of national investment bank etc). personally I think the SNP and Plaid should also consider joining this coalition more loosely if constitutional change could be agreed that would result in a fully federal UK - all but defence and central bank. FTP has broken politics in this country, we have a tory party in power on a 28% mandate with an entirely different policy agenda than the manifesto they stood on. The left such as it is should exploit the shortcomings of the system to effect change before its too late and we move ever further towards an authoritarian, brutal and racist discourse.
    The Greens are pushing for an electoral pact or progressive alliance with the other left of centre parties. They didn't field a candidate in this by-election but through their weight behind an independent. In Richmond they supported the lib dem.

    For all the talk of the greens being Trust find lefties and pie in the sky, it is actually their leader Caroline Lucas that speaks the most sense on a wide range of subjects.

    The biggest threat to democracy is the fact that the Tories are reducing the number of MPs to 600 (they say to save money but they've stuffed the house of Lords with their appointees). They intend to even out the constituencies and in doing so ensure that almost every constituency South of about Manchester has an inbuilt Tory majority. Our man in Skye's constituency completely disappears as Caroline Lucas' one to be replaced by two Tory ones despite that this splits Brighton into three. They should keep urban populations separate from rural ones.


    Sent by telepathy.

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    Not sure what sense Caroline Lucas talks? I can think of any examples, but in theory she'll be able to say some common sense more directly that labour or Tory politicians because she will never be in power; a standard privilege of small party pols.

    In practice, do the English greens have any policies notably sensible compared to other parties? Maybe we should ask the people of Brighton who have the greens imposed upon them by all the trustifarians and luvvies that move there, and who then busy themselves infliciting looney croons stuff on the hapless local proles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    I'm not sure what you are on about here; UKIP have made labour unelectable by drawing away swathes of the historical working class labour vote. This is because labour no longer represent their traditional interests and increasingly rely on identity politics to divide and capture some members of the working class on other bases. This is manifestly factually true - with the qualification I am talking about England, in Scotland the SNP have done this far more comprehensively with an inclusive pitch that couldn't be more starkly contrasted with identity politics.
    thats totally different to saying they represent the working class voice - they represent 9-10% of the working class voice when you actually look at the figures.

    return to the realm of truth old boy. I am saying no such thing; unless you are assuming voting intentions and interests have no connection - in which case all political discussion is moot - my point is unremarkable to the point of being mundane. If you leave all the identity bollocks aside, working class voters have similar economic and social interests. but alas we cannot leave said bollocks aside and others are being divided by identity politics. It's not a good thing. Then again only certain labour sorts ever believed people vote solely on economic interest.
    so to simplify you're position - minority workers vote labour against their economic interest and social values because they are caught up in identity politics while the white worker has shrugged this off and found a home in UKIP? thats my honest interpretation of what you said. i find it incredible you'd choose to present this as a mundane truth.

    14% of males voters voted UKIP, 12% of female. The majority of white American women voted for trump.

    Age is a factor, but it's not clear to me how being old is a bad thing, nor how it reflects poorly on political judgement not least versus the inexperience of youth.
    neither being old or white is a bad thing - this isnt about blame its about understanding and truth

    bravura example of post truth in action; pull a preferred theory out of your imagination and then start inferring things about the facts while inferring that others are doing the inferring. It's a lengthy and detailed report - worth a look.
    its not a preferred theory it was quite clearly as equally an unfounded guess - just like your inference.

    only in post truth world where ideological paradigms take precedence over reality. The right are certainly prospering from identity politics though - the inevitable by product of left wing identity politics dividing and ruling for decades.
    has the left ruled for decades?

    except it does. I have not said that working class people don't vote for labour, I have said that swathes of them have deserted it making it unelectable. And courting the lib dems and greens in a pact is not responding to that trend, it's going in the other direction and reinforcing the gentrification of the Labour Party which is increasing under corbs. You've demonstrated a fondness for speculation above - UKIP got 40% the votes of labour last time out. What do you think would have happened in England with pr and a neutral media? I think it's very possible they'd be the second largest party by now, capitalising on pr making change believable which was central to the SNPs obliteration of labour.
    under PR they'd be 3rd or 4th biggest party in the UK, potential coalition partners with the tories...emphasising the need for indy2


    your use of stats is really quite novel. Apply the same formula to labour and tell me what you arrive at. A more salient reflection on what the stats give us is in my previous post; huge swathes of the working class have simply been disenfranchised and don't vote. If we had pr...as above, place your bets.
    i'm not saying arguing that labour are the voice of the working class either, i wouldn't be so silly as to make such a simplistic an observation no matter how it suited my political bias.

    first but I agree with but it's why your coalition is unlikely to work in the opposing directions labour need. The liberal middle classes will happily move between a liberal Labour Party, liberal Tory party and liberal libdems party. That's been amply demonstrated by the last 20 years. The less well off are going in the opposite direction. The people who don't vote are largely put off by the same politics that underpins this. They're not going to be won over by a Labour Party that doesn't represent their interests.
    so why arent they (the stay aways) voting UKIP if they offer an alternative and 'represent their views'- working class turnout last time went down. to paint UKIP as the vehicle that will bring a voice to the disenfranchised doesnt bear analysis not matter how much you might wish it to be as a sometime supporter of theirs.

    your repeated use of voter stats against a population who have stopped voting during the years of liberal hegemony i have dealt with above. Meanwhile you state yourself that UKIP got 40% of actual de voters vs labour. With the asymmetry of power, establishment support and starting position that is a remarkable statistic and not in ways favourable to labour. When all is done; labour supporters can continue to embrace magical thinking and plucking theses out of thin air. But the numbers don't lie and if UKIP don't implode (very possible) labour are finished .
    i agree labour is f'ked already why do you keep going on about it? no-one (not even labour supporters like Smurf) are arguing against that.

    I am referring to the work of left wing academics Goodwin and ford - but they deal in numbers not post truth paradigms. Worth a look.
    go on then - link?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Maybe we should ask the people of Brighton who have the greens imposed upon them by all the trustifarians and luvvies that move there, and who then busy themselves infliciting looney croons stuff on the hapless local proles.
    you could argue the minority 'impose' our mps in most of the constituencies that's systemic not peculiar to green voters.
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    @gun ainm;; This is circular R, from the opening use of stats, this is a retread of last two posts.

    No one says that every worker votes for a worker's party, than hasn't ever been true. What is true is that UKIP have the most working class demographic among parties in England and have made the Labour Party unelectable. Despite your efforts with stats their electoral achievements have been remarkable and it remains to be seen what they go on to if they don't implode.

    Your view of what they might achieve under PR is a little conservative; they're the uk's 3rd biggest party under fptp, despite the near insurmountable barriers to entry. In a realigned English political landscape, they provide the template for a worker's party alongside the liberal and conservative parties aligned to global capitalism.

    One last thing; I'm surprised to find you doubling-down on finding equivalence between pulling things out of the air - such as your agenda-buttressing speculation about Muslims - and citing evidence bases, such as findings from interviews with thousands of them.

    This is precisely the stuff of the post truth approach which is a topic of the moment. Reliance on post truth 'preferred reality' versus actual reality is one reason why the centre left has collapsed across the west; it's viewpoint is essentially based on magical thinking, and it cannot respond to discordant reality.

    But hey, the proof is in the pudding; let's wait and see what happens next.


    Ps Goodwin and Ford: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revolt-Righ...t+on+the+right

    Their leftist bias is inherent even in that title - a decade and a half of deranged PC, economic destruction, liberal crusading and anti social control freakery and now communist dilettantism from labour, and its UKIP who are extremist! But don't let that put you off - they are academics after all, what can we expect? It nevertheless remains the most comprehensive and data driven study of UKIPs sources of support that I'm aware of. If a book length study is too much simply enter 'UKIP most working class party' into google. You'll find their work reflected in the results that come back, the morning star fretting over the same phenomenon emerging from different data, Paul Nuttal aiming to displace labour as the natural party of the working class, and so on. That's just on the first page of results.

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    Re Goodwin and ford. I believe one was and may still be a card carrying Tory and the other is a centrist liberal type. Lefties my bahookie

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    @gun ainm;; This is circular R, from the opening use of stats, this is a retread of last two posts.

    No one says that every worker votes for a worker's party, than hasn't ever been true. What is true is that UKIP have the most working class demographic among parties in England and have made the Labour Party unelectable. Despite your efforts with stats their electoral achievements have been remarkable and it remains to be seen what they go on to if they don't implode.

    Your view of what they might achieve under PR is a little conservative; they're the uk's 3rd biggest party under fptp, despite the near insurmountable barriers to entry. In a realigned English political landscape, they provide the template for a worker's party alongside the liberal and conservative parties aligned to global capitalism.

    One last thing; I'm surprised to find you doubling-down on finding equivalence between pulling things out of the air - such as your agenda-buttressing speculation about Muslims - and citing evidence bases, such as findings from interviews with thousands of them.

    This is precisely the stuff of the post truth approach which is a topic of the moment. Reliance on post truth 'preferred reality' versus actual reality is one reason why the centre left has collapsed across the west; it's viewpoint is essentially based on magical thinking, and it cannot respond to discordant reality.

    But hey, the proof is in the pudding; let's wait and see what happens next.


    Ps Goodwin and Ford: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revolt-Righ...t+on+the+right

    Their leftist bias is inherent even in that title - a decade and a half of deranged PC, economic destruction, liberal crusading and anti social control freakery and now communist dilettantism from labour, and its UKIP who are extremist! But don't let that put you off - they are academics after all, what can we expect? It nevertheless remains the most comprehensive and data driven study of UKIPs sources of support that I'm aware of. If a book length study is too much simply enter 'UKIP most working class party' into google. You'll find their work reflected in the results that come back, the morning star fretting over the same phenomenon emerging from different data, Paul Nuttal aiming to displace labour as the natural party of the working class, and so on. That's just on the first page of results.
    you're right it is getting circular and therefore tedious, G&F looks interesting but not interesting enough to spend £15. The 'proof' in the book presumably that UKIP has a sizeable working class vote and its not just retired majors with a fondness for empire days. maybe i am doing them a disservice but that seems like a statement of the obvious (it may have been less so 2 years ago at publication i suppose). that off course doesn't make them THE voice of the working class but hey ho we've been over that ground already and i think the stats speak for themselves. what does the term 'Britains most working class party' actually mean? i can google plenty of articles that repeat that mantra but there's little in the way of analysis. several articles add white to the description.....which i suppose offers some refinement but to be honest i am still at a loss. whats clear is that nearly 50% of the working class dont vote, with the other half split between the parties it seems obvious that no party can truly claim to represent the working class.
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jock3 View Post
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    Yes Sleaford is a poor result for Labour; but on the plus side the Tories' majority was reduced by over 6000.

    The traditions of the Labour Party, starting from the times of the great Keir Hardie, are strong and it's going to take a lot more than this to affect that.

    It's time for the Blairites and the PLP to stop self-destructing the party.

    Let's face it; Sleaford is a typical rural area, with a long tradition of powerful landowners.
    I enjoy your posts but this one is priceless. You're at a stroke writing off rural areas, centrists, the PLP. What ideologically pure section of society will you actually have left to vote for you that isn't either hovering the pencil over the UKIP box or enjoying the cheese course at a dinner party in London?
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    I enjoy your posts but this one is priceless. You're at a stroke writing off rural areas, centrists, the PLP. What ideologically pure section of society will you actually have left to vote for you that isn't either hovering the pencil over the UKIP box or enjoying the cheese course at a dinner party in London?
    Quite honestly, if someone told me that Jock was trolling us by cutting and pasting op-eds from a 1936 journal like The Plebs or something, I wouldn't be in the least surprised!
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    Quite honestly, if someone told me that Jock was trolling us by cutting and pasting op-eds from a 1936 journal like The Plebs or something, I wouldn't be in the least surprised!
    There's a guy on twitter who plays the note-perfect extreme Corbynista ratcheted up one degree so it's just past the point of absurdity. It's remarkable how often people don't get the joke, assume he's serious and go barreling in to attack or defend him. Or perhaps not that remarkable given how extraordinary some of the real positions are.
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    There's a guy on twitter who plays the note-perfect extreme Corbynista ratcheted up one degree so it's just past the point of absurdity. It's remarkable how often people don't get the joke, assume he's serious and go barreling in to attack or defend him. Or perhaps not that remarkable given how extraordinary some of the real positions are.
    be interested in what you'd view as his/their extraordinary positions? i'm not a labour supporter but as far as i can tell they either haven't really defined their policies or they have been pretty vague about any proposals? that'd be my main criticism of them although maybe I havent done enough work to investigate....?

    What is obvious however is that it is extraordinary that anyone would retain faith in the neo-liberal model when it is failing so conspicuously - collapsing even. We need more alternatives especially from the left because the right's response is coalescing around authoritarian nationalism. i hope we can remember that our baseline is failure when we take a view on alternative models and measures of what will bring about a successful society...
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    be interested in what you'd view as his/their extraordinary positions? i'm not a labour supporter but as far as i can tell they either haven't really defined their policies or they have been pretty vague about any proposals? that'd be my main criticism of them although maybe I havent done enough work to investigate....?
    You're right, in that part of the problem is that quite a lot of the policies aren't extraordinary. They aren't even policies though, just vague notions. 'More equality, less prejudice', 'free education', 'a living wage'. I don't think one can really disagree with those, except that usually not enough people vote for candidates who can make them possible.

    Where stated I do think some of them are odd. 'QE for the people' is. Rent controls look a good idea but are disastrous compared to other solutions. Creating 2 million new manufacturing jobs is probably impossible. The attitude to the EU I personally find alarming.

    Overall, and notwithstanding the terrible communications (which your post kind of underlines) there's no joined up message, no clue as to how all this would be done. It's fine to want a new paradigm, but ignoring reality is not one.

    What is obvious however is that it is extraordinary that anyone would retain faith in the neo-liberal model when it is failing so conspicuously - collapsing even. We need more alternatives especially from the left because the right's response is coalescing around authoritarian nationalism. i hope we can remember that our baseline is failure when we take a view on alternative models and measures of what will bring about a successful society...
    I personally think that the "neo-liberal model" (how is that different from capitalism btw?) has been a great success. Across its lifetime it has lifted more people out of poverty than any other form of government, indeed one could argue it's the single greatest humanitarian achievement that mankind has produced.

    The problem is that in difficult times it isn't functioning well in reducing inequality. But if we pay some more taxes, expand welfare and free health care, and ensure wages are kept buoyant then what else is required? And to me that's a tweak, really. Instead you seem to want to tear it all up to replace it with something you don't even have an inkling of.

    I humbly suggest that given how relatively simple my fix is, yours is something of a risk - especially given that the baseline for alternative leftist systems is also most decidedly failure.
    so what do I know

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    Quote Originally Posted by gun ainm View Post
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    be interested in what you'd view as his/their extraordinary positions? i'm not a labour supporter but as far as i can tell they either haven't really defined their policies or they have been pretty vague about any proposals? that'd be my main criticism of them although maybe I havent done enough work to investigate....?

    What is obvious however is that it is extraordinary that anyone would retain faith in the neo-liberal model when it is failing so conspicuously - collapsing even. We need more alternatives especially from the left because the right's response is coalescing around authoritarian nationalism. i hope we can remember that our baseline is failure when we take a view on alternative models and measures of what will bring about a successful society...
    Extraordinary indeed, that when push came to shove, the left rallied to the defence of neo liberalism when brexit was at stake. Extraordinary that the left decry the labels of neo liberalism and globalism while actively supporting their real world manifestation.

    Actually it's not really extraordinary, its predictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    You're right, in that part of the problem is that quite a lot of the policies aren't extraordinary. They aren't even policies though, just vague notions. 'More equality, less prejudice', 'free education', 'a living wage'. I don't think one can really disagree with those, except that usually not enough people vote for candidates who can make them possible.

    Where stated I do think some of them are odd. 'QE for the people' is. Rent controls look a good idea but are disastrous compared to other solutions. Creating 2 million new manufacturing jobs is probably impossible. The attitude to the EU I personally find alarming.

    Overall, and notwithstanding the terrible communications (which your post kind of underlines) there's no joined up message, no clue as to how all this would be done. It's fine to want a new paradigm, but ignoring reality is not one.



    I personally think that the "neo-liberal model" (how is that different from capitalism btw?) has been a great success. Across its lifetime it has lifted more people out of poverty than any other form of government, indeed one could argue it's the single greatest humanitarian achievement that mankind has produced.

    The problem is that in difficult times it isn't functioning well in reducing inequality. But if we pay some more taxes, expand welfare and free health care, and ensure wages are kept buoyant then what else is required? And to me that's a tweak, really. Instead you seem to want to tear it all up to replace it with something you don't even have an inkling of.

    I humbly suggest that given how relatively simple my fix is, yours is something of a risk - especially given that the baseline for alternative leftist systems is also most decidedly failure.
    I think you're spot on on the plus points. People want to cling to simple - in retrospect - Victorian and Edwardian arguments. Few on left or right want to grasp the nettle and admit that you either drag the developing world out of absolute poverty to the detriment of western labour or you protect the latter at the expense of the former (and all the security issues that ultimately ripple out). That is the choice.

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    Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Not sure what sense Caroline Lucas talks? I can think of any examples, but in theory she'll be able to say some common sense more directly that labour or Tory politicians because she will never be in power; a standard privilege of small party pols.

    In practice, do the English greens have any policies notably sensible compared to other parties? Maybe we should ask the people of Brighton who have the greens imposed upon them by all the trustifarians and luvvies that move there, and who then busy themselves infliciting looney croons stuff on the hapless local proles.
    I'm not sure where to start with this. Lucas was the only English leader to come out unequivocally against Brexit and to extol the benefits of EU membership. She was careful to be clear that it is not perfect and in dire need of reforming to get rid of its more neo-liberal tendencies. She's also been very clear that she believes that immigration has a beneficial effect on our society and that it's inhuman to turn our backs on refugee children.

    Also - Brighton Council was never run by a Green majority and that administration inherited a lot of policies from the previous labour admin.

    Finally : Sensible green policies? What about cutting greenhouse gas emissions and removing carcinogenic pesticides from the food chain?



    Sent by telepathy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bofahibee View Post
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    I'm not sure where to start with this. Lucas was the only English leader to come out unequivocally against Brexit and to extol the benefits of EU membership. She was careful to be clear that it is not perfect and in dire need of reforming to get rid of its more neo-liberal tendencies.
    so vote for neo liberalism in the hope it will reform itself without voter pressure? Right.
    She's also been very clear that she believes that immigration has a beneficial effect on our society
    and she has quantified that?
    and that it's inhuman to turn our backs on refugee children.
    who disagrees with that?

    Also - Brighton Council was never run by a Green majority and that administration inherited a lot of policies from the previous labour admin.
    so what? You can only blame the past for so long
    Finally : Sensible green policies? What about cutting greenhouse gas emissions and removing carcinogenic pesticides from the food chain?
    we complain at tories for shutting mines - no we're ok with those that would prevent them reopening?

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    If Bouncers would like to know what Labour really stands for go onto Twitter.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzfjuzTWgAAdYkU.jpg:large

    That'll do nicely thanks......

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    I think you're spot on on the plus points. People want to cling to simple - in retrospect - Victorian and Edwardian arguments. Few on left or right want to grasp the nettle and admit that you either drag the developing world out of absolute poverty to the detriment of western labour or you protect the latter at the expense of the former (and all the security issues that ultimately ripple out). That is the choice.
    See, I kinda agree with this, but isn't the crucial problem coming up with something to replace western labour in the west? That is to say, not many people would quibble with lifting the third world out of poverty. But abstracting your own position relative to the third world is difficult to do on a daily basis - you're always gonna measure your happiness - arguably your happiness rests on and is produced by - what you see around you. Now though, in the absence of cohesive communities centred around jobs that, while not highly-skilled, still conferred dignity and the distinct possibility of home ownership, we're faced with an increasingly atomised society in transient rented accommodation, staring enviously (and increasingly rancorously) into the internet at the tiny minority who essentially won the lottery, while either killing time in arbitrary further education, or weighing up call centres, food outlets, and shops as potential careers.

    People are fond of mocking people "who want to go back to the 50s", but I can sort of understand it - where's the alternative future that looks like delivering, well, happiness? As opposed to the sort of empty Western downward spiral.
    Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jock3 View Post
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    If Bouncers would like to know what Labour really stands for go onto Twitter.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzfjuzTWgAAdYkU.jpg:large

    That'll do nicely thanks......
    I'd like to participate in an orgy with 12 blonde lassies on my own.

    How am I going to achieve this?

    Wish lists are wonderful. Corbyn is hopeless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aggie View Post
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    See, I kinda agree with this, but isn't the crucial problem coming up with something to replace western labour in the west? That is to say, not many people would quibble with lifting the third world out of poverty. But abstracting your own position relative to the third world is difficult to do on a daily basis - you're always gonna measure your happiness - arguably your happiness rests on and is produced by - what you see around you. Now though, in the absence of cohesive communities centred around jobs that, while not highly-skilled, still conferred dignity and the distinct possibility of home ownership, we're faced with an increasingly atomised society in transient rented accommodation, staring enviously (and increasingly rancorously) into the internet at the tiny minority who essentially won the lottery, while either killing time in arbitrary further education, or weighing up call centres, food outlets, and shops as potential careers.

    People are fond of mocking people "who want to go back to the 50s", but I can sort of understand it - where's the alternative future that looks like delivering, well, happiness? As opposed to the sort of empty Western downward spiral.
    That's the dilemma though - offshoring to the developing world is a royal pain in the arse that no one would do if it wasn't cheaper. Therefore - both directly and through establishing a 'going rate' that pegs salaries in the west - it's an indivisible whole; the offshoring that lifts people overseas out of absolute poverty must have a deflationary consequence in the west by the very properties that make it viable.

    That going rate is; developing world labour rate + vat on third party services + margin for offshore company + saving for company doing the offshoring + hassle factor. Until that reaches equilibrium with western labour rates (when developing world labour gets to around 40-60% of our rate) then we are where we are.

    Meanwhile well governed countries that are offshore centres - say India - are churning out millions of engineers and scientists and squirrelling away all the knowledge of how to run western businesses. By the time labour rates catch up our media studies grads won't be able to compete on capability. Boom, headshot - as the kids might say.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On the go back to the 50s thing - I mind this being a jibe at col blimp tories and mail readers when i was growing up. Amusing to see guardian columnists now pining for a 60s or 70s they knew barely, if at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    so vote for neo liberalism in the hope it will reform itself without voter pressure?
    Good point. But as Lucas said in her interviews in the run up to Brexit there's much more that is good about the European project than there is that is bad. It's more than the just the Central Bank. What's more the same could be said about the UK and Scottish parliaments which are also in the thrall of Neo-lib economists.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Right. and she has quantified that?
    Yes. For example the migrants who keep the NHS running... or the extra tax migrants add to these countries' coffers.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    who disagrees with that?
    The result of the referendum is that politicians emboldened by the result engaged in sickening posturing and shut the doors on these vulnerable kids because that would play well to the Daily Mail and Sun readers.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    so what? You can only blame the past for so long
    Maybe - politics is all about blaming the other lot isn't it? The things we're talking about that the Brighton Greens got the blame for was mostly inherited - the big one was the bin men's industrial action which happened because they didn't like the fact that they had been put on the same pay scale as dinner ladies. The Greens took the stick for that but it was entirely the work of (a) labour councillor(s). The thing the Greens were most guilty of was not vetting their candidates properly so they ended up having to chuck one of their Councillors out because they held views on a woman's right to abortion which were not in line with Green policy and another who turned out to be a bit of a nut job.

    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    we complain at tories for shutting mines - no we're ok with those that would prevent them reopening?
    Deep mining is a $#@!ty, dangerous job - yes there was dignity in what was honest labour and it had been the backbone of British industry for centuries but it was a horribly unhealthy way of life. My Mrs comes from a mining family. My issue with Thatcher was the savage way she took away people's livelihoods and destroyed communities. I have no problem with not reopening the mines now. In case you missed the news, Global temperatures in 2016 broke records in every month. The human migrations we are seeing now are driven in no small part by global warming and they are only set to get worse. Global Warming is the elephant in the room but politicians will only ever pay lip service to doing their bit for the environment until it bites us all in the arse by which time it will be too late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryLB View Post
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    You're right, in that part of the problem is that quite a lot of the policies aren't extraordinary. They aren't even policies though, just vague notions. 'More equality, less prejudice', 'free education', 'a living wage'. I don't think one can really disagree with those, except that usually not enough people vote for candidates who can make them possible. Where stated I do think some of them are odd. 'QE for the people' is. Rent controls look a good idea but are disastrous compared to other solutions. Creating 2 million new manufacturing jobs is probably impossible. The attitude to the EU I personally find alarming. Overall, and notwithstanding the terrible communications (which your post kind of underlines) there's no joined up message, no clue as to how all this would be done. It's fine to want a new paradigm, but ignoring reality is not one.
    In general i'm in agreement with that, although to be fair to Jezza there is no point writing a manifesto now. I suspect by ignoring reality you mean ignoring the reality of the neo-liberal orthodoxy.

    dont want to necessarily get in to the specifics of current labour policy but take the example rent controls - are they disastrous? and for whom? useful report here http://allofusfirst.org/tasks/render...A150DF5D14ACD1 on why they might be a useful tool here in Scotland. other countries employ them widely without 'disaster'. We need to focus less on wealth creation and more on social utility and policies like this should be considered. happy to hear of potentially better solutions of course.


    I personally think that the "neo-liberal model" (how is that different from capitalism btw?) has been a great success. Across its lifetime it has lifted more people out of poverty than any other form of government, indeed one could argue it's the single greatest humanitarian achievement that mankind has produced.
    modern usage of neo-liberalism (to my mind anyway) describes a form of capitalism born of hayek and friedman and other economists, you could contrast it with the Keynesian capitalism it largely replaced. Its a political ideology that was used justify and entrench the existence of the elite and has morphed through the 70s and 80s through to now to enable that continuity (paul Mason does a good description of the distinct phases in his book postcapitalism irrc. its great success is that superficially it came to be almost universally accepted by the public as 'common sense' or 'the way things are'. its adherents often don't even admit to it being an ideology. Analysis reveals serious flaws however which were always going to lead to its collapse - the need for continuous growth. which resulted in an economy that was built on little that was tangible. that's a different thread though. Characterised by free markets, small state, privatisation, regressive taxation, deregulated labour markets etc.

    unconvinced it has dragged billions out of poverty, china for example has eschewed the 'washington consensus' and built its economy on mercantilism (as has Japan and to an extent Germany). undeniably there has been a bubble effect but this is not sustainable in the long term. genuinely i think its collapsing all around us and there's no way we can repair the roof while it falls in

    The problem is that in difficult times it isn't functioning well in reducing inequality. But if we pay some more taxes, expand welfare and free health care, and ensure wages are kept buoyant then what else is required? And to me that's a tweak, really. Instead you seem to want to tear it all up to replace it with something you don't even have an inkling of. I humbly suggest that given how relatively simple my fix is, yours is something of a risk - especially given that the baseline for alternative leftist systems is also most decidedly failure
    you dont think the problems are systemic, that they are somehow 'natural'? maybe you can point me to the good times when it did reduce inequality either here or globally. my argument would be that the failures are a direct product of the system and i think any serious analysis would bear that out. 'tweaking' is not going to solve the fundamental tensions inherent in the system. I do agree the left needs to articulate an alternative vision and has by and large failed to do so (in a way that can capture the publics imagination) - there is a however a lot of good work being done by economists and thinkers out there. perhaps the natural conservatism of the majority is a problem - resist change to the status quo until one day the fascists knock on their door - oops too late.
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    Extraordinary indeed, that when push came to shove, the left rallied to the defence of neo liberalism when brexit was at stake. Extraordinary that the left decry the labels of neo liberalism and globalism while actively supporting their real world manifestation.

    Actually it's not really extraordinary, its predictable.
    With my very limited work addled brain, I think you're right here M.

    Can any passionate left winger / labour man contest this ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Smurf View Post
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    I'd like to participate in an orgy with 12 blonde lassies on my own.

    How am I going to achieve this?

    Wish lists are wonderful. Corbyn is hopeless.

    you're a greedy bassa K.

    I'd be happy wi' 3 or 4

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    Quote Originally Posted by emerald green View Post
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    With my very limited work addled brain, I think you're right here M.

    Can any passionate left winger / labour man contest this ?
    not sure i'd qualify on either count but if Corbyn is the most prominent left winger in the UK it is quite clear he didn't rally to the Bremain side as egb describes. The centre right of the labour party indeed used that very fact to attempt their bloodless coup, such was their wrath.
    "The old is dying and the new cannot be born. In this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms can appear"

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