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Thread: Just back and the tale of two penalties

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Thank you for saving me the bother. A bairn with a biscuit erse could see from the off last night that Boyle was having an absolute mare and should have been subbed after 20 mins...he was that bad! I like Boyle, he is one of my faves but $#@!me! keeping yer top striker on the bench for that long when the squirrel 's play was total rank rotten smacks of Lennon being a bit of a $#@! over this stupid feud.

    We win more games with JC playing and it's usually him that scores the winner. That's a fact.
    except it's not a fact. Our points per game has also been higher since he was benched, albeit marginally.

    Agree with you on Boyle having a mare last night and Cummings should have been on sooner. Maybe others are making a different point but the only one I'm making is we are finding the goal better since he's been benched.

    I think this is because his style of play - when we don't have he players to supply him - means the team as a whole is less effective against against parked buses. This is what the facts suggest so far.

    I want him to be back in the team soon but I hope that will see a change in his game - failing that we need additions in January who can better supply JC with the ammo he needs.

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    I think we play better with Boyle but when a striker loses form I feel that's the time to give the back up a chance, in this case Cummings. Boyle had been scoring up until yesterday so is it fair to drop him after 1 game?

    Maybe if he is poor next week that's a loss of form but 1 bad game is simply an off day

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    Quote Originally Posted by egb_hibs View Post
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    except it's not a fact. Our points per game has also been higher since he was benched, albeit marginally.

    Agree with you on Boyle having a mare last night and Cummings should have been on sooner. Maybe others are making a different point but the only one I'm making is we are finding the goal better since he's been benched.

    I think this is because his style of play - when we don't have he players to supply him - means the team as a whole is less effective against against parked buses. This is what the facts suggest so far.

    I want him to be back in the team soon but I hope that will see a change in his game - failing that we need additions in January who can better supply JC with the ammo he needs.
    But it's not true. Unless you compare them over the same amount of games!

    Our record over these 6 games since the benching is W 4 D 1 L 1 goals scored 13 Boyle 4

    Our record over the first 6 games with Jason starting is W 5 D 0 L 1 scoring 13 Cummings 7

    See what I mean? When it comes down to winning that wee bit more games and scoring that wee bit more goals then JC is obviously the man. The lad has proved it time and time again. Plus the fact Boyle only got a start up front cos Keats got injured! And he took it well. Which is a good thing.

    We wanna win this league? then we find a place for our best players. That hoofball in first half last night was horrific. Why are we playing like that? Because we played Holt up front. Why not Cummings (guile) & Boyle (pace) starting the game against our biggest rivals? The only reason I could see was that Lennon is blatantly targeting Cummings now. And that's not right whatever the circumstances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    But it's not true. Unless you compare them over the same amount of games!

    Our record over these 6 games since the benching is W 4 D 1 L 1 goals scored 13 Boyle 4

    Our record over the first 6 games with Jason starting is W 5 D 0 L 1 scoring 13 Cummings 7

    See what I mean? When it comes down to winning that wee bit more games and scoring that wee bit more goals then JC is obviously the man. The lad has proved it time and time again. Plus the fact Boyle only got a start up front cos Keats got injured! And he took it well. Which is a good thing.

    We wanna win this league? then we find a place for our best players. That hoofball in first half last night was horrific. Why are we playing like that? Because we played Holt up front. Why not Cummings (guile) & Boyle (pace) starting the game against our biggest rivals? The only reason I could see was that Lennon is blatantly targeting Cummings now. And that's not right whatever the circumstances.
    But I am not comparing Cummings to Boyle, I'm comparing team performances when Cummings was playing - and the attack was centred on him - and since he was benched. I mentioned Boyle because I think his running helps unlock the packed defences we face week in, week out, but it's the team outcome that matters, and that's about how the players combine.

    Since JC was benched our goal ratio is far higher than it was before, far higher than it was last season and far higher than it was the season before that. In fact it's running at a higher level than we have achieved over any season since when we were in the second tier in 98-99. Our points per game and wins ratio are also better than before Jason was benched, despite this period including tough fixtures.

    I'm not knocking Jason and would like to see him back in the team and more to the point, part of a game plan that is effective in this division. However, the facts are inarguable; the team has been averaging more goals since he was benched than it was doing previously, and at a damn good rate compared to our historical rates. we'll have had six game runs where we've scored higher in last couple of seasons - back when you could rely on the hapless Huns to ship a barrowload - but not often.

    Now as somebody noted above, it remains a small sample of games as yet, but the facts as they stand is that we're doing better this season since Jason hit the bench.

    As above, I don't think this is about Jason per se, it's about Jason's style within our overall system and in the context of a division of parked buses.

    Last night was first in a while where we looked like we'd once more forgotten where the goal is. Even in the 1-1 with Falkirk, that was from my seat a case of 'one of those days' and we looked a lot more potent than earlier in the season.

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    Just back and the tale of two penalties

    Different take here but our midfield don't score enough, so taking the one midfielder most likely to score and sticking him up front instead of our top scorer was a highly risky strategy with potential to backfire.


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    @egb_hibs I give up! There. Is. No. Point.

    All you have wrote up there ^, disregarding everything put to you (2 seasons and a bit worth of proof) and basing your argument on a 6 game stretch is honestly laughable and I'm having no more to do with this.

    It's like talkin' tae a brick wa'!

    Though TBH I sometimes think you're just "at it"


    I'll just leave ya with this. Go on watch it...


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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    @egb_hibs I give up! There. Is. No. Point.

    All you have wrote up there ^, disregarding everything put to you (2 seasons and a bit worth of proof) and basing your argument on a 6 game stretch is honestly laughable and I'm having no more to do with this.

    It's like talkin' tae a brick wa'!

    Though TBH I sometimes think you're just "at it"


    I'll just leave ya with this. Go on watch it...

    I'm at it for pointing out the actual facts? Because I have a different opinion than you and haven't said 'oh all right you're correct beefy' - I'm like a brick wall? Sheesh.

    I'm not at it; in the period since Jason was benched we have not only scored but always looked likely to score, in a way we haven't for a long time. And the stats bare out what I see from my seat.

    Yes it is only six games, but that's the run we're in, and why would we change it if it's working? It didn't work last night - next game may tell us if that is a blip or not. Our prior difficulty in scoring was anything but a blip.

    When Jason comes back in I am hoping he will adapt to what has been working.

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    We can all debate Cummings, or Boyle holt etc in my opinion until we play proper wing backs who can go past players and put proper balls in to box we will struggle. Am not having a go at gray and Stevenson but that's not their game


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    Quote Originally Posted by cammy1969 View Post
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    We can all debate Cummings, or Boyle holt etc in my opinion until we play proper wing backs who can go past players and put proper balls in to box we will struggle. Am not having a go at gray and Stevenson but that's not their game


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    that's absolutely correct and I think thr two things are related. Jason is a poacher, a penalty box predator and needs proper service from the wings. I think beefy and I would both agree we need far more width and pace. Our set pieces are also dreadful. Looking back it is a sign of what a date with destiny 21/5 was, that we came back into the game and then won it from corners - based on our record, that just one more improbable thing on top of other improbable things that we managed!

    Bottom line we absolutely need players who can get dangerous balls into the box, from either dead ball situations or after beating defenders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cammy1969 View Post
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    We can all debate Cummings, or Boyle holt etc in my opinion until we play proper wing backs who can go past players and put proper balls in to box we will struggle. Am not having a go at gray and Stevenson but that's not their game


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    Said the same last night. Gray/Stevenson are Hibernian legends, now on a par with ANY name you care to mention. But we need to upgrade them both I think. The signs were there last season, masked by the epic May events, but neither can regularly cross a ball.

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    This is the 3rd season down here and the only width we've had is from the fullbacks even in a 442 we play narrow to let fb push forward hasn't worked from start so don't understand why management think it will now this is not a dig at fb's


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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Jeezo! Where dae ye start with this?! I'll try...my answers above in bold
    Definitely not a Cummings hater. I like him, he's got more ability than any of our other strikers, and he knows where the net is. But as others are arguing the team performs better as a team without him and gets goals. To tell the truth I'm no that impressed by Holt, Graham or Boyle. If Cummings combined up front with any of them the way he did with Malonga I'd have him in every week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Sleeves View Post
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    Definitely not a Cummings hater. I like him, he's got more ability than any of our other strikers, and he knows where the net is. But as others are arguing the team performs better as a team without him and gets goals. To tell the truth I'm no that impressed by Holt, Graham or Boyle. If Cummings combined up front with any of them the way he did with Malonga I'd have him in every week.
    Is that after he has done his penance/learned his role in goal scoring without being a greedy $#@! / community service. I will be absolutely astonished if he does not start on Saturday......how the $#@! ever, knows what's in the Managers napper.

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    After that shambles from last night both Graham and Jase deserve their chance and both Holt and Squirrel take a back seat.
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    I'm calling it now 🏼️

    Utd to relegate Dundee in the playoff final .

    There's no way we're not winning the league.


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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Anyone who's happy to see Boyle starting for Hibs over Cummings is mental.
    mind boggling really, time to start playing our best players Lennon.
    until the sky turns green

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    The blueprint on how to win this league has been shown to us twice. Both the Gunts and Huns showed us that all you need is pace, wide players and a bit of quality in the box. What do we do? Pack the midfield and play narrow as feck. As for the Boyle vs Jase debate, it shouldn't even be a question. Jason has scored in so many high pressure games and has all the confidence in the world. Boyle scores against pish and crumbles at the slight pressure of taking a penalty at Tannadice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefy View Post
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    Jeezo! Where dae ye start with this?! I'll try...my answers above in bold
    Good post mate and saved me from posting something similar as I don't know how to do the bold type thing 😏

    And as the for the record if stubbs didnae sub JC we wouldn't have won the cup comment I'm actually still shaking my napper in disbelief

    For the record that's the most absurd and ridiculous comment I've heard not only on the bounce but from everything I've ever read in my puff IMO likes

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Said the same last night. Gray/Stevenson are Hibernian legends, now on a par with ANY name you care to mention. But we need to upgrade them both I think. The signs were there last season, masked by the epic May events, but neither can regularly cross a ball.
    Which reminds me to comment that when Neil Earldey came on I thought "who?". I had forgotten we had signed him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    Which reminds me to comment that when Neil Earldey came on I thought "who?". I had forgotten we had signed him.
    So did I dubbles and have to admit to being slightly embarrassed when the missus asked who was coming on when we made the sub
    My reply went along the lines of funk knows 😳

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Spence View Post
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    So did I dubbles and have to admit to being slightly embarrassed when the missus asked who was coming on when we made the sub
    My reply went along the lines of funk knows 😳


    He puts decent crosses over though or at least he did against DU [by decent I mean better than Sir David]. Perhaps it's time for radical change and drop the Scottish Cup winning goal scorer for a bit. What to do about LS though. I love the guy but we need to replace him pronto as he offers very little going forward in a role when he should be offering at least something. Can't go past a player and can't cross a decent ball.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    He puts decent crosses over though or at least he did against DU [by decent I mean better than Sir David]. Perhaps it's time for radical change and drop the Scottish Cup winning goal scorer for a bit. What to do about LS though. I love the guy but we need to replace him pronto as he offers very little going forward in a role when he should be offering at least something. Can't go past a player and can't cross a decent ball.
    I know what you're saying Dub but surely we canny be as bad at getting balls into the danger area as we were on Friday!

    It wasn't just these two heroes, I can't remember 1 good attempt from anyone all game!
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I know what you're saying Dub but surely we canny be as bad at getting balls into the danger area as we were on Friday!

    It wasn't just these two heroes, I can't remember 1 good attempt from anyone all game!
    Stevensons crossing has been gash for yonks, more so than Sir Dave's. I think it's time to give someone else a chance at left back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Spence View Post
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    Good post mate and saved me from posting something similar as I don't know how to do the bold type thing 😏

    And as the for the record if stubbs didnae sub JC we wouldn't have won the cup comment I'm actually still shaking my napper in disbelief

    For the record that's the most absurd and ridiculous comment I've heard not only on the bounce but from everything I've ever read in my puff IMO likes
    When Keatings came on for Cummings and Henderson for Fontaine it gave us an injection of pace that got us behind the Hun defence. Bit hard tae dispute that. Game changing substitutions from Sir Alan of Stubbs.

    Cummings more than anyone got us to the final in previous rounds though. No disputing that either.

    Lennon's tactics and team selections have been pretty solid Even with a weakened team away from home we looked better than an average Utd. Their keeper dived the right way. Ours didnae. Penalties werenae taken that different.

    If Cummings comes in alongside Graham/Holt and does the biz at the weekend then barry. If the keeper had dived the other way its a near cert Lennon wouldnt drop Boyle & JC would be back on the bench. So it goes.

    Aw the stuff about a grudge or a fall out between Lennon & Cummings sounds like a load ay pish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dub View Post
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    He puts decent crosses over though or at least he did against DU [by decent I mean better than Sir David]. Perhaps it's time for radical change and drop the Scottish Cup winning goal scorer for a bit. What to do about LS though. I love the guy but we need to replace him pronto as he offers very little going forward in a role when he should be offering at least something. Can't go past a player and can't cross a decent ball.
    I said this on Friday dubs, as much as we all love and like Lewis and we all want him to be better than he is etc
    The fact is that he's a limited player who won't get any better and he needs dropped pronto
    I can't say the same about David gray admittedly he was poor on Friday along with the majority of the side but there's been games this season when I think he's been outstanding and my MOTM the problem is consistency with him and sometimes he looks very laboured and unfit, when he's on his game he plays at a very high tempo and never stops which seems to affect his performance in the next game
    Simply he just can't play week in week out and I hope that lennon will finally sort these issues out we need bodies

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Sleeves View Post
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    When Keatings came on for Cummings and Henderson for Fontaine it gave us an injection of pace that got us behind the Hun defence. Bit hard tae dispute that. Game changing substitutions from Sir Alan of Stubbs.

    Cummings more than anyone got us to the final in previous rounds though. No disputing that either.

    Lennon's tactics and team selections have been pretty solid Even with a weakened team away from home we looked better than an average Utd. Their keeper dived the right way. Ours didnae. Penalties werenae taken that different.

    If Cummings comes in alongside Graham/Holt and does the biz at the weekend then barry. If the keeper had dived the other way its a near cert Lennon wouldnt drop Boyle & JC would be back on the bench. So it goes.

    Aw the stuff about a grudge or a fall out between Lennon & Cummings sounds like a load ay pish.

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    That was the point I was trying to make mate
    The cup is played over the six games and Cummings played his part in them all especially against the gunts and I agree that Stubbs subs in the final were inspired but don't forget it was Cummings who sent stokes on his way for the first goal as the wee man reminded us all on the time for hero's dvd, "Cummings up the line" was his quote 😁
    It just sounded a bit like you were saying thank funk Stubbs subbed Cummings in the final cos we would have won nout the laddie is crap
    Bit crossed wires and I guess I'm a bit quick to defend Jason cos I genuinely feel the laddie gets hammered and hung out to dry for absolutely nothing at times from our own fans for some reason there's so many hibs fans who can't wait to criticise him and in a perverse way enjoy it when he makes a mistake
    I just can't get my head round that
    I think he's still the top goalscorer in the championship yet has barely started half the games
    What other team playing in the Scottish second tier has ever knocked back a reported 1.8 million for a player who can't get a game and basically just a sub
    It's baffling

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    Personally I wouldn't mind seeing Cummings and graham upront...one of the few times they've been on the park together was our 4th goal against Morton and that was a great goal with JC putting a lovely ball into the box for graham

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    Quote Originally Posted by southfieldhibby View Post
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    Said the same last night. Gray/Stevenson are Hibernian legends, now on a par with ANY name you care to mention. But we need to upgrade them both I think. The signs were there last season, masked by the epic May events, but neither can regularly cross a ball.
    Completely agree with this. Lewis in particular unfortunately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Spence View Post
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    That was the point I was trying to make mate
    The cup is played over the six games and Cummings played his part in them all especially against the gunts and I agree that Stubbs subs in the final were inspired but don't forget it was Cummings who sent stokes on his way for the first goal as the wee man reminded us all on the time for hero's dvd, "Cummings up the line" was his quote 😁
    It just sounded a bit like you were saying thank funk Stubbs subbed Cummings in the final cos we would have won nout the laddie is crap
    Bit crossed wires and I guess I'm a bit quick to defend Jason cos I genuinely feel the laddie gets hammered and hung out to dry for absolutely nothing at times from our own fans for some reason there's so many hibs fans who can't wait to criticise him and in a perverse way enjoy it when he makes a mistake
    I just can't get my head round that
    I think he's still the top goalscorer in the championship yet has barely started half the games
    What other team playing in the Scottish second tier has ever knocked back a reported 1.8 million for a player who can't get a game and basically just a sub
    It's baffling
    Agree. I didnae make the original points very well. Wasnt criticising Jason in the Cup final. He was magnificent. Need to be a total arse or a hun to do anything apart from worship every last one of them. Was trying to make a point about Lennon trying to find the right combination up front rather than picking Jason to get aw the goals.

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    In this league where we often have 70% possession would we not be better with 2-5-3? Playing both Cummings and Boyle up front? We already use Stevenson and Gray as wing back so wouldnt cause a massive change in formation

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    For me our midfield wasn't in the game till very late on! I honestly don't see the need to play Bartley when we are playing 3 at the back! Him and Dylan both seemed to want to sit deep too which left Shinnie and the two strikers extremely isolated. If we're sticking to 3 at the back against Dumbarton we need to play Martin next to McGeouch imo, he is more similar to Fyvie with his energy and tenaciousness so would be a better fit. Would also love to see Crane given a run out, Lewis is a great servant but his inability to beat a man, on the pitch or with a cross, is costing us big time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmLee View Post
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    For me our midfield wasn't in the game till very late on! I honestly don't see the need to play Bartley when we are playing 3 at the back! Him and Dylan both seemed to want to sit deep too which left Shinnie and the two strikers extremely isolated. If we're sticking to 3 at the back against Dumbarton we need to play Martin next to McGeouch imo, he is more similar to Fyvie with his energy and tenaciousness so would be a better fit. Would also love to see Crane given a run out, Lewis is a great servant but his inability to beat a man, on the pitch or with a cross, is costing us big time!
    This.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAmLee View Post
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    For me our midfield wasn't in the game till very late on! I honestly don't see the need to play Bartley when we are playing 3 at the back! Him and Dylan both seemed to want to sit deep too which left Shinnie and the two strikers extremely isolated. If we're sticking to 3 at the back against Dumbarton we need to play Martin next to McGeouch imo, he is more similar to Fyvie with his energy and tenaciousness so would be a better fit. Would also love to see Crane given a run out, Lewis is a great servant but his inability to beat a man, on the pitch or with a cross, is costing us big time!
    100% agree with you here! Time we gave a couple of these young players a decent shot in the team

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